The Ocab factor

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Calmy. Show Calmy's posts

    The Ocab factor

    I know it is only mid May but wouldn't you know it, Orlando Cabrera is once again on a winner.  Move him to 2B, it doesn't matter!  The guy has been a guaranteed postseason ticket for about 8 years now.  BOS, LAA(only 2/3 years), CHIsox, Twins, Reds, Indians?.....

    All Cris Carter did was catch touchdowns and all Ocab does is help get teams to October.  Edgar, Alex, Julio, Alex, Marco.  That's about 75 milllion right there, Ocab cost less than 40 over the same stretch, with unquestionable better performance.

    I know the rumors about off the field stuff (Players wives, teenage girls, etc..), which is why the sox didn't bring him back.  But really, I wonder how many guys in baseball history have been a starter for 5  different play-off teams in a 7 year stretch. (6/8 in Cleveland goes this year)  Pretty incredible really. 
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: The Ocab factor

    I think this is more or less coincidence.

    For example, in how many years did he lead the Montreal Expos to championship seasons?
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: The Ocab factor

    I love these John Cazale stories.

    Never heard of him?

    He died young of cancer, but played in five movies, all of which were nominated for the best picture academy award.  And three of them won it--Godfather, Godfather II, and Deerhunter. The other two were Dog Day Afternoon and The Conversation.   He was a pretty good actor, but would hardly classify as the reason why all five movies were nominated for best picture.

    Ditto Mr. Cabrera.  If memory serves, the Sox shortstop for the 2007 season and WS win was someone named Julio Lugo. 

    I think Derek Jeter might be the example of the SS who did make a difference.  The George Steinbrenner era of Yankees history was  not so good until Derek Jeter joined the team, and since then they have been very successful.  Right or wrong, the Yankees FO thought he was a major factor, so they paid him very good money and never considered trading him.

    The fact that Cabrera keeps going from team to team is, at the very least, suggestive.  If he is the linchpin, why do teams keep letting him go? 
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Calmy. Show Calmy's posts

    Re: The Ocab factor

    In Response to Re: The Ocab factor:
    I think this is more or less coincidence. For example, in how many years did he lead the Montreal Expos to championship seasons?
    Posted by ZILLAGOD


    "Take what you have gathered from coincidence"  Bob Dylan 

    I've gathered the for whatever reason, Ocab plays for winning baseball teams.  Given that his is a competive profession and he continues to play a significant role for winning teams, it seems a little simplistic to chalk it up to coincidence.

    I can't think of another player who has been as simultaneously, transient and successful as Ocab.  For me, that type of anomaly is noteworthy.



     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Calmy. Show Calmy's posts

    Re: The Ocab factor

    In Response to Re: The Ocab factor:
    I love these John Cazale stories. Never heard of him? He died young of cancer, but played in five movies, all of which were nominated for the best picture academy award.  And three of them won it--Godfather, Godfather II, and Deerhunter. The other two were Dog Day Afternoon and The Conversation.   He was a pretty good actor, but would hardly classify as the reason why all five movies were nominated for best picture. Ditto Mr. Cabrera.  If memory serves, the Sox shortstop for the 2007 season and WS win was someone named Julio Lugo.  I think Derek Jeter might be the example of the SS who did make a difference.  The George Steinbrenner era of Yankees history was  not so good until Derek Jeter joined the team, and since then they have been very successful.  Right or wrong, the Yankees FO thought he was a major factor, so they paid him very good money and never considered trading him. The fact that Cabrera keeps going from team to team is, at the very least, suggestive.  If he is the linchpin, why do teams keep letting him go? 
    Posted by maxbialystock


    I think your entire argument is a double standard.  Ocab is John Cazale (nope never heard of him) but Jeter is a difference maker?

    To expound on the Jeter point, his tenure of success in NY has been shared entirely with Mo and Jorge, and the largest payroll in MLB.  Ocab's playoff run is far more unique than 1 player having a career of success on a dominant team.  

    Your point about why he keeps getting let go is the most interesting part.  No one wants him but teams as far as W/L go, improve when he is there.

    I'm not saying he is the sole reason for the success of the teams he has played on, but really, it is pretty weird if nothing else.  
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac32. Show pinstripezac32's posts

    Re: The Ocab factor


    I love these John Cazale stories.

    Never heard of him?


    good one max


    I wonder how many guys in baseball history have been a starter for 5 different play-off teams in a 7 year stretch. (6/8 in Cleveland goes this year) Pretty incredible really.


    interesting calmy  4 sure, some what impressive

    but it's hard not to think about why so many different teams

    as you mentioned

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: The Ocab factor

    Makes you wonder why all those teams did not lift a finger or cry a tear as he departed, doesn't it?
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from lvanDrago. Show lvanDrago's posts

    Re: The Ocab factor

    is Calmy just trying to be funny or is he actually serious, and consequently an idiot, about this?
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from J-BAY. Show J-BAY's posts

    Re: The Ocab factor

    In Response to Re: The Ocab factor:
    I love these John Cazale stories. Never heard of him? good one max I wonder how many guys in baseball history have been a starter for 5 different play-off teams in a 7 year stretch. (6/8 in Cleveland goes this year) Pretty incredible really. interesting calmy  4 sure, some what impressive but it's hard not to think about why so many different teams as you mentioned
    Posted by pinstripezac32


    theres a reason a player goes from team to team.....and not a good one.

    Milton Bradley comes to mind
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Calmy. Show Calmy's posts

    Re: The Ocab factor

    Milton Bradley, perfect example.  6 teams in 5 years and 1 play-off appearence.  It must just be a coincidence that teams he goes to usually don't make the play-offs.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: The Ocab factor

    In Response to Re: The Ocab factor:
    In Response to Re: The Ocab factor : I think your entire argument is a double standard.  Ocab is John Cazale (nope never heard of him) but Jeter is a difference maker? To expound on the Jeter point, his tenure of success in NY has been shared entirely with Mo and Jorge, and the largest payroll in MLB.  Ocab's playoff run is far more unique than 1 player having a career of success on a dominant team.   Your point about why he keeps getting let go is the most interesting part.  No one wants him but teams as far as W/L go, improve when he is there. I'm not saying he is the sole reason for the success of the teams he has played on, but really, it is pretty weird if nothing else.  
    Posted by Calmy


    "I knew it was you, Fredo".  John Cazale is Fredo.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: The Ocab factor

    In Response to Re: The Ocab factor:
    Milton Bradley, perfect example.  6 teams in 5 years and 1 play-off appearence.  It must just be a coincidence that teams he goes to usually don't make the play-offs.
    Posted by Calmy


    Even if it is all true, Ocab wears out his welcomes pretty quickly.  The question is, why?  Why not stick in LA, Min, Oak, Cincy?  There is more happening here than meets the eye.  All the GMs must know.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: The Ocab factor

    In case it isn't already, I want to make it clear that I am not a Yankees fan nor particularly a Jeter fan.  He probably got several gold gloves too many, but he has always been a good hitter and will get his 3000th this season. 

    It is almost impossible for one player to make or break a team.  Calmy's right about that. You need great pitching, and Jeter never pitched.  You need a very good lineup and defense, and Jeter was only one of nine.  

    And certainly there were plenty of great Yankee players (and still are) who, in a given year, contributed a lot to winning the WS.  Plus Mariano Rivera was and still is the best closer in the history of MLB--and he's been there all along. 

    But.  Jeter comes close to being the key because he was so darn consistent in the field and at bat.  And he is certainly a better example of a winner than Orlando Cabrera. 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from majorleague. Show majorleague's posts

    Re: The Ocab factor

    MLB is not a place where well behaved men come to work. Anyone suggesting there is any standard of decency conduct within the MLPA is out of their minds. OCab is a solid SS defender and good hitter under the heat. Character assasination in the gossip rumor market is hardly worth more than hot air.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: The Ocab factor

    I just remembered another example, a player I don't like at all, Pete Rose.  The Phillies got him circa 1980 and put him at 1B, and was just the right mix of hitting, hustle, and leadership to help the Phillies win the WS. 
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: The Ocab factor

    We often get players showing up on rosters of various playoff teams in different seasons.

    Craig Counsell comes to mind as being a rather nondescript player who occassionally would show up on playoff teams.

    Kenny Rogers is another who often ended up on a playoff team. Not a guy you would say was a huge factor, but he likely was useful and a small factor in the team's success.

    But it doesn't mean anything except they were in the right place at the right time.

    However, a player like Pete Rose was a difference maker and his presence in a lineup would likely be more because of him than just being in the right place at the right time.

    Cabrera is a smart player, a talented player. He indeed helped the Red Sox in 2004. Could they have pulled it off with another SS? We'll never know. But, I think there are a few others that could've performed as well.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Calmy. Show Calmy's posts

    Re: The Ocab factor

    The evidence against Ocab is almost entirely rumor.  He had some public problems with Ozzie but so have lots of guys. 

    The fact that he has moved so much doesn't speak well to him but take a guy like Dave Roberts, he moved a decent amount and he certainly never had any character issues.  Odog is a pretty respected guy around the league and he is on his 4th stop in 4 years.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from kt888. Show kt888's posts

    Re: The Ocab factor

    In Response to Re: The Ocab factor:
    MLB is not a place where well behaved men come to work. Anyone suggesting there is any standard of decency conduct within the MLPA is out of their minds. OCab is a solid SS defender and good hitter under the heat. Character assasination in the gossip rumor market is hardly worth more than hot air.
    Posted by majorleague



    Does "under the heat" include the post season?  For his past three post season appearances, he has a .135 BA with 0 RBIs.  

    Might want change that is to a was.


     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from StatsFromLouie. Show StatsFromLouie's posts

    Re: The Ocab factor

    In Response to Re: The Ocab factor:
    MLB is not a place where well behaved men come to work. Anyone suggesting there is any standard of decency conduct within the MLPA is out of their minds. OCab is a solid SS defender and good hitter under the heat. Character assasination in the gossip rumor market is hardly worth more than hot air.
    Posted by majorleague

    The guy hasn't posted an OPS+ of 100 since 2003 and he has been horribly inconsistent defensively throughout his career. This season he has been the second worst defensive second baseman in baseball, second only to your friend Bill Hall.

    And Calmy, if you want real winners, try getting a Derek Jeter or Mariano Rivera. Not this overrated player who has played for more teams than Jose Canseco.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Your-Echo. Show Your-Echo's posts

    Re: The Ocab factor

    It was rumor enough that Red Sox players ( especially a relief pitcher) voiced their concerns to the front office and after that OCab was not courted by the Red Sox. The evidence remained rumor since the columnists and reporters as well as FO personnel didn't want to go to court. Most intelligent baseball executives don't air their dirty laundry in public. Why the chemistry turns bad in a clubhouse is rarely made public and need not be. The fans have no right to the soap box operas.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from kt888. Show kt888's posts

    Re: The Ocab factor

    In Response to Re: The Ocab factor:
    We often get players showing up on rosters of various playoff teams in different seasons. Craig Counsell comes to mind as being a rather nondescript player who occassionally would show up on playoff teams. Kenny Rogers is another who often ended up on a playoff team. Not a guy you would say was a huge factor, but he likely was useful and a small factor in the team's success. But it doesn't mean anything except they were in the right place at the right time. However, a player like Pete Rose was a difference maker and his presence in a lineup would likely be more because of him than just being in the right place at the right time. Cabrera is a smart player, a talented player. He indeed helped the Red Sox in 2004. Could they have pulled it off with another SS? We'll never know. But, I think there are a few others that could've performed as well.
    Posted by ZILLAGOD



    Also Eric Hinske.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Calmy. Show Calmy's posts

    Re: The Ocab factor

    One Ocab clubhouse story that did make print....

    2004, Manny has a 'headache' (wink, wink) and has informed Tito he won't be able to play that day.  Ocab goes to Manny, tells him the team needs him in the lineup and that he WILL play.  Manny agrees.  Ocab goes to Tito and gives him the news. 

    Maybe Ocab told Manny he was going to bang his wife (again?) if Manny didn't play, who knows, it worked though.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Calmy. Show Calmy's posts

    Re: The Ocab factor

    With all due respect to Hinske and Counsel, they are not everyday SS.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from StatsFromLouie. Show StatsFromLouie's posts

    Re: The Ocab factor

    In Response to Re: The Ocab factor:
    With all due respect to Hinske and Counsel, they are not everyday SS.
    Posted by Calmy

    And you point is...

    I'm pretty sure your argument was that Cabrera's teams make it to the playoffs in spite of his other issues. Hinske and Counsel's teams make it to the playoffs in spite of them being bench players. So what?
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Calmy. Show Calmy's posts

    Re: The Ocab factor

    Nope. Read back through if you wish.
     
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