The Original Masterpiece

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    The Original Masterpiece

     I bring back for the edification and education of a certain Poster (Attica Club) who can't seem to get his facts straight. Specifically he claims my A-Gon "bashing" thread began when A-Gon was hitting .350. In fact the first posting was on May 2, when Adrian was at .312 1 HR 15 RBI. Notice how I question his shoulder health, if that's a "bash" I don't see it. I also added at that time a link to Adrian's hit chart, which is a factual reference to my opinion of him not spraying the ball around. herewith;

    drian "OFFERMAN" Gonzales

    posted at 5/2/2011 7:32 AM EDT
     
    Posts: 2388
    First: 6/25/2009
    Last: 12/21/2011
     Up to now he's been underwhelming his reputation. He was supposed to spray balls all over Fenway, especially LF. He's the worst cleanup hitter in the ALE, NLE or heck MLB. If he's going to hit like OFFER-MAN, why did they make him such a big Offer, man? His line shows that he's still recovering from surgery, he getting no lift on his hits, and because he makes decent contact he'll get his hits, until he starts showing some pop, don't you think he should be dropped? Here is his Fenway hit chart:
    http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/player/adrian-gonzalez/hitchart/139851

     As a four or five hitter he really offers no protection, and should be placed where singles and doubles guys bat.
     
     refute that Pike, er Attica Club.
     
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    Re: The Original Masterpiece

    Re: Adrian "OFFERMAN" Gonzales

    posted at 5/2/2011 8:50 AM EDT
     
    Posts: 433
    First: 8/27/2010
    Last: 9/24/2011
    Can't be sure if A-Gon's shoulder is 100% strong.    It sure doesn't look like it otherwise he'd be driving the ball better.
     
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    Re: The Original Masterpiece

    Re: Adrian "OFFERMAN" Gonzales

    posted at 5/2/2011 9:31 AM EDT
     
    Posts: 1798
    First: 4/2/2011
    Last: 12/15/2011
    i didnt realize Jose Offerman was a All-star, .300avg 35+hr hitter...Gonzo is hitting .312 with 10 doubles already. Sure his slugging% is down right now, but it will be there and you will see 35+ hr at the end of the season IMO. Pedey and Youk missed a lot of last season due to injury and Gonzo has off season surgery so to expect any of them to come blazing out of the gates is not realistic. This offense will be one of the best by years end. Gonzos hitting is the least of the Sox worries.

    I'd say 27 HR was well off this expectation!
     
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    Re: The Original Masterpiece

     Great job here BOOMER, Spot on.....
    Posts: 9379
    First: 11/17/2008
    Last: 12/21/2011
    He probably needs more time for the power to come back but it probably will. I love his swing. If he starts bopping he will carry this team for months. Ortiz has started well, and Drew. It's not all bad. We are positioned well going forward.

     
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    Re: The Original Masterpiece

     very sober judgement Andrew....

    Re: Adrian "OFFERMAN" Gonzales

    posted at 5/2/2011 11:31 AM EDT
     
    Posts: 11405
    First: 6/4/2005
    Last: 10/30/2011
    He's a good hitter but I never did get the "he's LH Manny" comparison.  He's not in Manny league.

    Right now, I see him as a Billy Muellar less the dirtdog mentality........

    The big concern has to be his shoulder.  Yeah, the claim is pitchers aren't giving him balls to turn on.  I ain't buying it.  Are you telling me that for the last several years pitchers in the NL had a different approach to him?
     
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    Re: The Original Masterpiece

     prophetic post on Lester....

    Re: Adrian "OFFERMAN" Gonzales

    posted at 5/2/2011 11:38 AM EDT
     
    Posts: 171
    First: 8/28/2009
    Last: 11/19/2011
    Although I wouldn't call the post ridiculous it's awfully close. Give the guy more than a month before the Offerman comparisons. Sure I'd drop him way down in the lineup and hit JD Drew, Salty or Crawford in his place. There are so many guys on the team with 10 plus HR's this year it will be hard to choose who will take his spot in the lineup.
    For your next post do something like John "Bob Stanley" Lester.
     
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    Re: The Original Masterpiece

     Andy paints a cautinary tale...

    Re: Adrian "OFFERMAN" Gonzales

    posted at 5/2/2011 7:11 PM EDT
     
    Posts: 11405
    First: 6/4/2005
    Last: 10/30/2011
    If the power doesn't come for AGone (and not 20 HR but 30 HR) then we are not getting what we are paying for......
     
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    Re: The Original Masterpiece

     My redemption came from the big cheese himself, Eckersly, which I somehow predicted...

    Re: Adrian "OFFERMAN" Gonzales

    posted at 5/2/2011 7:25 PM EDT
     
    Posts: 2394
    First: 6/25/2009
    Last: 12/21/2011
    In Response to Re: Adrian "OFFERMAN" Gonzales:
    If AGone tops out at 20/90 then Theo will stand at the podium and stare right through you proclaiming that this is exactly what we wanted from him and that he was worth "a tick above 154 million"....straight faced and all....I hope that doesn't happen and I don't think it will be I think you get the point......
    Posted by andrewmitch

     I posted a link to his Fenway hit chart, which showed virtually nothing to LF, but the fanboys ignored that and recalled all his hits that went that way. Lets listen to Eck tonite, he'll tell the truth.
     
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    Re: The Original Masterpiece

     JimDavis piped in after the fact with Monday morning quarterbacking accuracy, meanwhile my savior, Dennis Eckersly HOF'er runs with my talking points, go ECK!!

    Re: Adrian "OFFERMAN" Gonzales

    posted at 5/2/2011 10:00 PM EDT
     
    Posts: 2394
    First: 6/25/2009
    Last: 12/21/2011
    In Response to Re: Adrian "OFFERMAN" Gonzales:
    Maybe Gonzales should have gotten the day off.
    Posted by jimdavis


     Eckersly: "This is what we've been waiting for", What is he talking about Jim?


     
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    Re: The Original Masterpiece

    Don't worry about Utica Club, YOUKILLUS.  You're a knowledgable fan and a good forum contributor who occasionally likes to stir up stuff.
     
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    Re: The Original Masterpiece

    In Response to Re: The Original Masterpiece:
    Don't worry about Utica Club, YOUKILLUS.  You're a knowledgable fan and a good forum contributor who occasionally likes to stir up stuff.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut


     Thanks HF, Attica Club never lets facts stand in the way of good old fashioned slander.
     
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    Re: The Original Masterpiece

    Utica Club has gone after me too whenever I've had an opinion that was the least bit critical of the Sox, even though 90% of the time I stuck up for the FO, Francona and the players.  If he would just stick to talking about baseball he could be a good poster...but it would take a Scrooge-like epiphany for that to happen.
     
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    Re: The Original Masterpiece

    In Response to Re: The Original Masterpiece:
    Utica Club has gone after me too whenever I've had an opinion that was the least bit critical of the Sox, even though 90% of the time I stuck up for the FO, Francona and the players.  If he would just stick to talking about baseball he could be a good poster...but it would a Scrooge-like epiphany for that the happen.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut


     That wold be giving him the Dickens.
     
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    Re: The Original Masterpiece

    Youkillus20:
    Up to now he's been underwhelming his reputation. He was supposed to spray balls all over Fenway, especially LF. He's the worst cleanup hitter in the ALE, NLE or heck MLB. If he's going to hit like OFFER-MAN, why did they make him such a big Offer, man? His line shows that he's still recovering from surgery, he getting no lift on his hits, and because he makes decent contact he'll get his hits, until he starts showing some pop, don't you think he should be dropped?

    SouthPaw: i didnt realize Jose Offerman was a All-star, .300avg 35+hr hitter...Gonzo is hitting .312 with 10 doubles already. Sure his slugging% is down right now, but it will be there and you will see 35+ hr at the end of the season IMO. Pedey and Youk missed a lot of last season due to injury and Gonzo has off season surgery so to expect any of them to come blazing out of the gates is not realistic. This offense will be one of the best by years end. Gonzos hitting is the least of the Sox worries.

    Boomerang:
    He probably needs more time for the power to come back but it probably will. I love his swing. If he starts bopping he will carry this team for months. Ortiz has started well, and Drew. It's not all bad. We are positioned well going forward.   

    WolfPack:

    Although I wouldn't call the post ridiculous it's awfully close. Give the guy more than a month before the Offerman comparisons. Sure I'd drop him way down in the lineup and hit JD Drew, Salty or Crawford in his place. There are so many guys on the team with 10 plus HR's this year it will be hard to choose who will take his spot in the lineup.

    UticaClub:                  

    SOUNDS TO ME LIKE YOU WERE IMPATIENT WITH HIS POWER PRODUCTION BUT WERE AWARE OF HIS BAD SHOULDER.
     
    COMPARING HIM TO OFFERMAN WAS IN BAD TASTE.
     
    YOU WERE STIRRING THE POT. WOULD JOE BREIDY OR MOONSLAV EVER STIR THE POT LIKE THIS?
     
    MOST FANS CHOSE TO REMAIN PATIENT, REALIZE THE INJURY, AND NOT HAVE A CHICKEN LITTLE MENTALITY.

    IT IS IRRELEVANT WHETHER HE WAS HITTING .314 or .350.

    YOU WANTED TO INCITE, INFLAME, BE CONTROVERSIAL, AND BE VISIBLE.

    COMPARING HIM TO OFFERMAN? GIVE ME A BREAK.
     
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    Re: The Original Masterpiece

     UticaClub:                   SOUNDS TO ME LIKE YOU WERE IMPATIENT WITH HIS POWER PRODUCTION BUT WERE AWARE OF HIS BAD SHOULDER.   COMPARING HIM TO OFFERMAN WAS IN BAD TASTE.   YOU WERE STIRRING THE POT. WOULD JOE BREIDY OR MOONSLAV EVER STIR THE POT LIKE THIS?   MOST FANS CHOSE TO REMAIN PATIENT, REALIZE THE INJURY, AND NOT HAVE A CHICKEN LITTLE MENTALITY. IT IS IRRELEVANT WHETHER HE WAS HITTING .314 or .350. YOU WANTED TO INCITE, INFLAME, BE CONTROVERSIAL, AND BE VISIBLE. COMPARING HIM TO OFFERMAN? GIVE ME A BREAK.
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

     I wasn't "aware" of his bad shoulder, as the company line was he was OK, and he said as much. Comparing him to Offerman, the umpire beater, would be in bad taste, but Offerman first month of production with Sox was comparable and actual similar, no bad taste.
     It's not Irrelevant as to his batting average, as YOU constantly quote it to ridicule me, it's less amusing to say "YOUKILLUS20 bashed A-Gon when he was hitting .312" than to pull .350 out of thin air. (see again, you moved the avg up)
     If you read the whole thread, you will see where I clearly said, I don't think they (Gonzales and Offerman) are the same players.
     I give you small credit though for responding, you still have  a long way to go.
     
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    Re: The Original Masterpiece

    Hmm, this is really a split decision...your analysis of his injury was terrific, but your attitude towards Gonzalez was poor.

    Good posting: note his lack of power, theorize that he still has shoulder issues, and research data such as his spray chart. It's pretty clear that you were right on that he needed to get his shoulder back into shape.

    Poor posting: compare an MVP caliber player to Jose Offerman, say said player should be dropped in the batting order, question the acquisition of said player, mock Jon Lester (which makes you an idiot). In April, Adrian Gonzalez with a bad shoulder and sputtering lineup around him hit .314/.379/.457. Those are middle of the order numbers to begin with...plus, I want to keep him batting 3rd or 4th so I can reap the benefits of his inevitable upsurge (which came RIGHT AWAY in May when he whacked 9 HRs).

    Gonzalez was tremendous last year, he had a very low salary, we saved millions of dollars on his extension by getting him last year, and he actually has upside for next year. Want to hear something promising? Try this:
    Gonzalez '11 Home: .347/.413/.516, 19 2Bs, 10 HRs
    Gonzalez '11 Away: .329/.407/.579, 26 2Bs, 17 HRs
    As you would expect from Fenway Park, Gonzalez benefitted as a hitter overall from his home park. But his had SIGNIFICANTLY worse power at home. Did he target the Monster too much? Did center field (a 57 HR park factor in recent years, meaning it produces only 57% of league average for homers...105 for LF, and about 90 for RF) eat up a lot of hits and homers? Did he just use the park poorly in his first year? And usually if Fenway hurts HRs it helps 2Bs (131 park factor last year), yet Gonzalez's 2Bs were lower at Fenway too. It's hard to say why Fenway hurt Gonzalez's power, but it would be reasonable to anticipate that he will do better there next year. Assuming a full year of a healthy shoulder...he could be scary good. Like a repeat .340 BA and .415 OBP but a jump to 40+ HRs good.

    We got what we paid for last year, and look for a hefty profit next year...
     
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    Re: The Original Masterpiece

    In Response to Re: The Original Masterpiece:
    Hmm, this is really a split decision...your analysis of his injury was terrific, but your attitude towards Gonzalez was poor. Good posting: note his lack of power, theorize that he still has shoulder issues, and research data such as his spray chart. It's pretty clear that you were right on that he needed to get his shoulder back into shape. Poor posting: compare an MVP caliber player to Jose Offerman, say said player should be dropped in the batting order, question the acquisition of said player, mock Jon Lester (which makes you an idiot). In April, Adrian Gonzalez with a bad shoulder and sputtering lineup around him hit .314/.379/.457. Those are middle of the order numbers to begin with...plus, I want to keep him batting 3rd or 4th so I can reap the benefits of his inevitable upsurge (which came RIGHT AWAY in May when he whacked 9 HRs). Gonzalez was tremendous last year, he had a very low salary, we saved millions of dollars on his extension by getting him last year, and he actually has upside for next year. Want to hear something promising? Try this: Gonzalez '11 Home: .347/.413/.516, 19 2Bs, 10 HRs Gonzalez '11 Away: .329/.407/.579, 26 2Bs, 17 HRs As you would expect from Fenway Park, Gonzalez benefitted as a hitter overall from his home park. But his had SIGNIFICANTLY worse power at home. Did he target the Monster too much? Did center field (a 57 HR park factor in recent years, meaning it produces only 57% of league average for homers...105 for LF, and about 90 for RF) eat up a lot of hits and homers? Did he just use the park poorly in his first year? And usually if Fenway hurts HRs it helps 2Bs (131 park factor last year), yet Gonzalez's 2Bs were lower at Fenway too. It's hard to say why Fenway hurt Gonzalez's power, but it would be reasonable to anticipate that he will do better there next year. Assuming a full year of a healthy shoulder...he could be scary good. Like a repeat .340 BA and .415 OBP but a jump to 40+ HRs good. We got what we paid for last year, and look for a hefty profit next year...
    Posted by redsoxu571

     
     I've always thought Lester was terrific, and many times have contrasted his production to Buchholz, which isn't even close by the way. Lester's fall in September was very Stanley-ish, hopefully the real JL comes back for all six months next year. Good synopsis.
     
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    Re: The Original Masterpiece

    Goose Frabbah.  It's almost Christmas.  Let it go...
     
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    Re: The Original Masterpiece

    Right, it's almost Christmas. We should all be more charitable towards our players on our team. Let's pray that forum members can dig deep and find something good to say about players instead of being constantly negative. Perhaps a player does not have the expected power because he is injured. Is the FO supposed to advertise such facts? Pity the players who come here and take the insults seriously.
     
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