The real story of Theo Epstien

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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : How much genius has Beane shown lately though, since he lost that nucleus of great pitchers he once had?  His most notable move in recent years was handing Carlos Gonzalez to the Rockies in the Matt Holliday rental. 
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]

    You mean the ones that were not mentioned or even referenced in the movie "Moneyball"?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from sinjin5000. Show sinjin5000's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    the truth is that epstien did a lot right and a lot wrong, the thing the protected him was Henry's money, if he had made some of those big money mistakes with a team like the cubs, he would have been fired long ago. 

    The thing to remember is that the sun shines on every digs As.. once in a while. 

       
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]the truth is that epstien did a lot right and a lot wrong, the thing the protected him was Henry's money, if he had made some of those big money mistakes with a team like the cubs, he would have been fired long ago.  The thing to remember is that the sun shines on every digs As.. once in a while.     
    Posted by sinjin5000[/QUOTE]The truth be known the money is a blessing and a curse.

    Billy Beane's advantage is his job isn't on the line if his team takes a natural dip because players under his control become too expensive to resign and the FA market does not have an ideal fit at the right price. The team just goes into rebuilding mode.

    That luxury does not exist in Boston.  
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]This is the typical thing that has always gone on with Epstein. He is either a genius or an idiot it seems and things are never that simple. For example: Theo had nothing to do with the 03 team that came close and got credit for the same players in 04 by simply making the Nomar trade that everyone labeled him a genius for after winning the WS  Wrong. Millar, Ortiz, Mueller, Schilling, Walker, Bellhorn, Timlin. Embree, Foulke were all Epstein's early moves. In two seasons the team went from being very incomplete with a few star players to the deepest offense in the majors. He built a thin bit efficient BP in two seasons. Theo wasn't the only reason why the RS won in 2004 but he was instrumental. He also did a fine job of retooling on the fly and was able to retool half his IF and 2/3 of his OF, replace 3 starters and completely over haul the bullpen. The guy had a good run here. he made mistakes, every GM does. And one look at the back of Orlando Cabrera's baseball card will tell you that in spite of very good play on the field every team he has been with wants to move the guy very quickly and does.
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    Excellent post.

    After reading the OP, I had to go back to baseball-reference.com just to make sure my memory was correct about the past decade. I could have sworn the Red Sox won two W.S. titles, made the playoffs consistently won 90-plus games nearly every year 95-plus four or five times and built a team that had enough talent -- despite some underachievers -- to play at a 100-win pace for five of six month before a collapse that had less to do with talent and more to do with other issues.

    The team the OP described sounded like it was lucky to win 55 games every year.
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Excellent post. After reading the OP, I had to go back to baseball-reference.com just to make sure my memory was correct about the past decade. I could have sworn the Red Sox won two W.S. titles, made the playoffs consistently won 90-plus games nearly every year 95-plus four or five times and built a team that had enough talent -- despite some underachievers -- to play at a 100-win pace for five of six month before a collapse that had less to do with talent and more to do with other issues. The team the OP described sounded like it was lucky to win 55 games every year.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    Funny roy,

    If "MY MEMORY" is correct Theo took over a team that was 93 and 69 in 02 and 95 and 67 in 03.  Back then we couldn't even spend the money we have recently.  So Theo and Tito get more credit than prior management and Grady Little because other teams "including ours" finally caught up with the Yankees spending and we finally won two WS?  Where did he leave us? 

    Theo was the recipient of good fortune.  Now he will need to show everyone just how good he can make the Cubbies.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from RSF4Life234. Show RSF4Life234's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]The bottom line is Theo wasn't the genuis many labled him as.  Theo made many more bad signings than good and never could evaluate good pitching which is why our pen and starters have struggled for years.  Theo had nothing to do with the 03 team that came close and got credit for the same players, outside of a few good additions in 04, along with making the Nomar trade that everyone labled him a genius for after winning the WS.  That off season he let Cabrera go and lost money on the Renteria signing.  Then he made his only good trade for a starting pitcher who helped us win the WS in 07 which was Schil.  Since then, Theo can only take credit for Clay, Adrian and a few good gap fillers like Scutaro, Victor,  Beltre etc. along with keeping our young talent like Pede, Youk, Lester etc. he had little to do with originally.   Theo also gets credit for Lugo, Drew, Penny, Smoltz, Wells, Piniero, Clement, Cameron, Crisp, Renteria, Crawford, Lackey and a whole slew of horrible relief pitchers over the years which are just a few of his mistakes.  We also lost Masterson because it took Theo years to figure out after 07 that we needed a better offensive catcher that could also handle Wake.  A move, if made earlier that could have kept Masterson in the fold.  To this day we still have Varitek and Salty "a below average catcher" defensively who is being mentored by a guy who can't hit.  Teks "game calling abilitities" have never helped us in any significant way since, other than what some fans try and talk us into. Next season should finally be different.  A new GM, manager, coaches and finally get rid of at least some of the dead weight in Tek, Wake, McDon and Drew, even though Lackey and CC may still haunt us for a bit.  Thats the Theo Epstien reality.   He wasn't soley responsible for any young talent on our farm and Henry and Luchinno won't let guys go who were go until their contract expires.  Ben Cherington has been given a fresh start and man do we need it.  True we have won two WS with Theo and Tito but the same achievments can and will be made with the correct new staff in place with fewer mistakes, so everyone should stop worrying.  Why do you really feel Henry didn't want Tito "no control over discipline" or Theo back this season after the offer?
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]


    First of all Theo made the most important trade in Red Sox history, PERIOD. Nomar for three unknown players who ended up being a key part of a world series franchise. I dont understand how its so easy to glass over that.

    Secondly Theo also signed many players who were key contributors to those teams, millar, muiller ring a bell? Oh yeah and i know he was just a stop gap move bud adrian beltre as well.

    Third of all theo drafted dustin pedrio (Roy and MVP) Jacoby (comback player and MVP canidate) Danial Bard (one of the best setup man in the league) Rizzo and Kelly (the Gonzo deal) Masterson + other drafted prospects for Vmart

    Seriously Theo wasnt perfect but this is getting rediculous. I remember reading an article once where the auther was comenting on a great move for by the rays (delmon young for garza) all they did was switch first round draft picks, theo traded a franchise star, not even close.

    Theo was the best red sox GM in history, and probably one of the Best Gms of all time. Was last year frustrating, of course it was, but reffering to one of the best GMS all time as BLUNDER is just juvinile.
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to The real story of Theo Epstien : First of all Theo made the most important trade in Red Sox history, PERIOD. Nomar for three unknown players who ended up being a key part of a world series franchise. I dont understand how its so easy to glass over that. Secondly Theo also signed many players who were key contributors to those teams, millar, muiller ring a bell? Oh yeah and i know he was just a stop gap move bud adrian beltre as well. Third of all theo drafted dustin pedrio (Roy and MVP) Jacoby (comback player and MVP canidate) Danial Bard (one of the best setup man in the league) Rizzo and Kelly (the Gonzo deal) Masterson + other drafted prospects for Vmart Seriously Theo wasnt perfect but this is getting rediculous. I remember reading an article once where the auther was comenting on a great move for by the rays (delmon young for garza) all they did was switch first round draft picks, theo traded a franchise star, not even close. Theo was the best red sox GM in history, and probably one of the Best Gms of all time. Was last year frustrating, of course it was, but reffering to one of the best GMS all time as BLUNDER is just juvinile.
    Posted by RSF4Life234[/QUOTE]

    So did prior management with less money and Manny please.  Compare what team we started Theo with to where he has left us.
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to The real story of Theo Epstien : First of all Theo made the most important trade in Red Sox history, PERIOD. Nomar for three unknown players who ended up being a key part of a world series franchise. I dont understand how its so easy to glass over that. Secondly Theo also signed many players who were key contributors to those teams, millar, muiller ring a bell? Oh yeah and i know he was just a stop gap move bud adrian beltre as well. Third of all theo drafted dustin pedrio (Roy and MVP) Jacoby (comback player and MVP canidate) Danial Bard (one of the best setup man in the league) Rizzo and Kelly (the Gonzo deal) Masterson + other drafted prospects for Vmart Seriously Theo wasnt perfect but this is getting rediculous. I remember reading an article once where the auther was comenting on a great move for by the rays (delmon young for garza) all they did was switch first round draft picks, theo traded a franchise star, not even close. Theo was the best red sox GM in history, and probably one of the Best Gms of all time. Was last year frustrating, of course it was, but reffering to one of the best GMS all time as BLUNDER is just juvinile.
    Posted by RSF4Life234[/QUOTE]



    Yikes!

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    2003 to 2004 Rosters Please do not tell me Theo did nothing

    Pitchers Pitchers
    Hector Almonte Terry Adams
    Bronson Arroyo Abe Alvarez
    John Burkett Jimmy Anderson
    Bruce Chen Bronson Arroyo
    Alan Embree Pedro Astacio
    Casey Fossum Jamie Brown
    Chad Fox Frank Castillo
    Bob Howry Lenny DiNardo
    Todd Jones Alan Embree
    Byung-Hyun Kim Keith Foulke
    Derek Lowe Bobby Jones
    Brandon Lyon Byung-Hyun Kim
    Pedro Martinez Curtis Leskanic
    Ramiro Mendoza Derek Lowe
    Robert Person Mark Malaska
    Ryan Rupe Anastacio Martinez
    Scott Sauerbeck Pedro Martinez
    Rudy Seanez Ramiro Mendoza
    Jason Shiell Mike Myers
    Jeff Suppan Joe Nelson
    Mike Timlin Curt Schilling
    Kevin Tolar Phil Seibel
    Tim Wakefield Mike Timlin
    Matt White Tim Wakefield
    Scott Williamson Scott Williamson
    Steve Woodard  
    Catchers Catchers
    Bill Haselman Sandy Martinez
    Doug Mirabelli Doug Mirabelli
    Jason Varitek Jason Varitek
    Infielders Infielders
    Andy Abad Mark Bellhorn
    Lou Collier Orlando Cabrera
    Nomar Garciaparra Cesar Crespo
    Shea Hillenbrand Brian Daubach
    Damian Jackson Andy Dominique
    Lou Merloni Nomar Garciaparra
    Kevin Millar Ricky Gutierrez
    Bill Mueller David McCarty
    Freddy Sanchez Doug Mientkiewicz
    Todd Walker Bill Mueller
      Pokey Reese
      Earl Snyder
      Kevin Youkilis
    Outfielders Outfielders
    Adrian Brown Johnny Damon
    Johnny Damon Adam Hyzdu
    Gabe Kapler Gabe Kapler
    David McCarty Kevin Millar
    Trot Nixon Trot Nixon
    Manny Ramirez Manny Ramirez
      Dave Roberts
    Other Positions Other Positions
    Jeremy Giambi Ellis Burks
    David Ortiz David Ortiz
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : So did prior management with less money and Manny please.  Compare what team we started Theo with to where he has left us.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    Really as far as i can recall dan duquette doesnt have two rings. Also when you win a lot you get lower draft picks, theo has done a great job from the position they have been in for drafting.
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Yikes!
    Posted by greenapplesplatters[/QUOTE]

    The truth is frightning.
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]2003 to 2004 Rosters Please do not tell me Theo did nothing Pitchers Pitchers Hector Almonte Terry Adams Bronson Arroyo Abe Alvarez John Burkett Jimmy Anderson Bruce Chen Bronson Arroyo Alan Embree Pedro Astacio Casey Fossum Jamie Brown Chad Fox Frank Castillo Bob Howry Lenny DiNardo Todd Jones Alan Embree Byung-Hyun Kim Keith Foulke Derek Lowe Bobby Jones Brandon Lyon Byung-Hyun Kim Pedro Martinez Curtis Leskanic Ramiro Mendoza Derek Lowe Robert Person Mark Malaska Ryan Rupe Anastacio Martinez Scott Sauerbeck Pedro Martinez Rudy Seanez Ramiro Mendoza Jason Shiell Mike Myers Jeff Suppan Joe Nelson Mike Timlin Curt Schilling Kevin Tolar Phil Seibel Tim Wakefield Mike Timlin Matt White Tim Wakefield Scott Williamson Scott Williamson Steve Woodard   Catchers Catchers Bill Haselman Sandy Martinez Doug Mirabelli Doug Mirabelli Jason Varitek Jason Varitek Infielders Infielders Andy Abad Mark Bellhorn Lou Collier Orlando Cabrera Nomar Garciaparra Cesar Crespo Shea Hillenbrand Brian Daubach Damian Jackson Andy Dominique Lou Merloni Nomar Garciaparra Kevin Millar Ricky Gutierrez Bill Mueller David McCarty Freddy Sanchez Doug Mientkiewicz Todd Walker Bill Mueller   Pokey Reese   Earl Snyder   Kevin Youkilis Outfielders Outfielders Adrian Brown Johnny Damon Johnny Damon Adam Hyzdu Gabe Kapler Gabe Kapler David McCarty Kevin Millar Trot Nixon Trot Nixon Manny Ramirez Manny Ramirez   Dave Roberts Other Positions Other Positions Jeremy Giambi Ellis Burks David Ortiz David Ortiz
    Posted by JimfromFlorida[/QUOTE]

    Jim I really dont understand half the posters on this board right now. All they are looking at is the things theo didnt do, or did poorly, and completely glossing over everything else he did. Honestly i hope the sox dont regret letting theo walk.
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]The bottom line is Theo wasn't the genuis many labled him as.  Theo made many more bad signings than good and never could evaluate good pitching which is why our pen and starters have struggled for years.  Theo had nothing to do with the 03 team that came close and got credit for the same players, outside of a few good additions in 04, along with making the Nomar trade that everyone labled him a genius for after winning the WS.  That off season he let Cabrera go and lost money on the Renteria signing.  Then he made his only good trade for a starting pitcher who helped us win the WS in 07 which was Schil.  Since then, Theo can only take credit for Clay, Adrian and a few good gap fillers like Scutaro, Victor,  Beltre etc. along with keeping our young talent like Pede, Youk, Lester etc. he had little to do with originally.   Theo also gets credit for Lugo, Drew, Penny, Smoltz, Wells, Piniero, Clement, Cameron, Crisp, Renteria, Crawford, Lackey and a whole slew of horrible relief pitchers over the years which are just a few of his mistakes.  We also lost Masterson because it took Theo years to figure out after 07 that we needed a better offensive catcher that could also handle Wake.  A move, if made earlier that could have kept Masterson in the fold.  To this day we still have Varitek and Salty "a below average catcher" defensively who is being mentored by a guy who can't hit.  Teks "game calling abilitities" have never helped us in any significant way since, other than what some fans try and talk us into. Next season should finally be different.  A new GM, manager, coaches and finally get rid of at least some of the dead weight in Tek, Wake, McDon and Drew, even though Lackey and CC may still haunt us for a bit.  Thats the Theo Epstien reality.   He wasn't soley responsible for any young talent on our farm and Henry and Luchinno won't let guys go who were go until their contract expires.  Ben Cherington has been given a fresh start and man do we need it.  True we have won two WS with Theo and Tito but the same achievments can and will be made with the correct new staff in place with fewer mistakes, so everyone should stop worrying.  Why do you really feel Henry didn't want Tito "no control over discipline" or Theo back this season after the offer?
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    Sorry to let you know that THEO was no gumby . Thats why Major league teams have scouts to inform them of players of intrest.Theo DID NOT RUN THE BOSTON RED SOX !! Where did all you pick on Theo losers come up with Theo ran the whole show?
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Been a Sox fan for probably longer than you have been around pal, but don't cover up reality like some of our fans.  Sugar coating the obvious is the worst part of being in denial.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]


    That's the way I feel. Theo takes a steaming crap on these peoples' heads and they still genuflect and say "Please sir, may I have another." Any intelligent baseball fan worth his salt understands what Blunder's legacy is. The others? Well, every fanbase does needs its apologists, pollyannas and rumpswabs.
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Jim I really dont understand half the posters on this board right now. All they are looking at is the things theo didnt do, or did poorly, and completely glossing over everything else he did. Honestly i hope the sox dont regret letting theo walk.
    Posted by RSF4Life234[/QUOTE]

    Amen. It looks like the forum has many who are trying to emulate Michael Felger and play Devil's Advocate for the fun of it. Like Felger it provides them with entertainment.
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Really as far as i can recall dan duquette doesnt have two rings. Also when you win a lot you get lower draft picks, theo has done a great job from the position they have been in for drafting.
    Posted by RSF4Life234[/QUOTE]

    So 04, which already had a great bunch but also an aging "dead weight veteran" in Nomar "like the three players we do now" and 07 is all you see? 

    How about 02, 03, 05, 06, 08, 09, 10 and 11?   Who gets blame Tito and Grady?  We had some great years before Theo got here but very little chance to compete with the Yankees.  So Theo won us two WS and Manny who he didn't sign gets no credit.   Do you feel we would have still won without Manny? 

    I want to hear from all the board experts and there excuses for Theo, our dead weight veterans and present team.because Theo was an average GM with tons of money to spend period.
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : So 04, which already had a great bunch but also an aging "dead weight veteran" in Nomar "like the three players we do now" and 07 is all you see?  How about 02, 03, 05, 06, 08, 09, 10 and 11?   Who gets blame Tito and Grady?  We had some great years before Theo got here but very little chance to compete with the Yankees.  So Theo won us two WS and Manny who he didn't sign gets no credit.   Do you feel we would have still won without Manny?
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    Are you more concerned about your ego, debating, or the Red Sox. You don't come across as a loyal fan. You go searching out fans and attacking them.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from RSF4Life234. Show RSF4Life234's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : So 04, which already had a great bunch but also an aging "dead weight veteran" in Nomar "like the three players we do now" and 07 is all you see?  How about 02, 03, 05, 06, 08, 09, 10 and 11?   Who gets blame Tito and Grady?  We had some great years before Theo got here but very little chance to compete with the Yankees.  So Theo won us two WS and Manny who he didn't sign gets no credit.   Do you feel we would have still won without Manny?  I want to hear from all the board experts and there excuses for Theo, our dead weight veterans and present team.because Theo was an average GM with tons of money to spend period.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    Are you serious with this, no team no matter how good is going to win the world series every year. You standard that he only one 2 out of the 9 years he was GM of the franchise is obsurd. How many world series has the GM of the rays won and yet people on here act like hes the golden standard. How about Billy Beane? oh yeah and lets not forget good old Dan.

    Oh and of course manny was a big part of those teams but do you know who was far more important to those title teams David Ortiz and who got him?

    The only dead weight contracts on the sox right now are Lacky and CC (ccs only been here for a year) Both contracts were considered great ideas at the time, they just didnt pan out, Sh*t happens.

    Who else is a dead weight contract?
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Funny roy, If "MY MEMORY" is correct Theo took over a team that was 93 and 69 in 02 and 95 and 67 in 03.  Back then we couldn't even spend the money we have recently.  So Theo and Tito get more credit than prior management and Grady Little because other teams "including ours" finally caught up with the Yankees spending and we finally won two WS?  Where did he leave us?  Theo was the recipient of good fortune.  Now he will need to show everyone just how good he can make the Cubbies.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    Couldn't spend the money? It wasn't Theo who signed Manny to a $160M contract.

    What Theo's critics never like to admit is this. As others pointed out, there's not doubt that Theo had a strong core with guys like Damon, Manny, Pedro, Tek and Lowe. But it was Theo who built up the team around him. In 2004, the infield, not including Tek, and most of the pitching staff and all the bench was all Theo. The Sox don't win in 2004 w/o those players.

    And beyond that -- look at the turnover between 2004 and 2007. Despite a remaking of the team, the Sox won something like 95 games every year except for 2006 when injuries hit the team, and if Theo's FA signings are all bust like you critics claim, then that must mean all his other moves must have been good.

    Also, what's overlooked in the Theo bashing is context. Take Cashman, for instance. Look at all the moves that didn't work out for him during the W.S. drought in the 2000s. And remember, a lot of that late '90s dynasty was contructed by Michaels (I think that was who it was).

    And what about the Mets or other big-market teams. All those GMs have had more than their fair share of busts. It goes with the territory. Name me any GM in any sport who hasn't made their fair share of bad moves.
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Are you more concerned about your ego, debating, or the Red Sox. You don't come across as a loyal fan. You go searching out fans and attacking them.
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

    I'm a 45 year loyal fan Utica,
    which is why I'm pointing out these facts our board experts have made excuses for.  I don't have an ego, just a passion for our team without sugar coating our past and present issues.

    Theo was an average GM, if you take the money away Henry gave him to spend he may be considered below average compared to other less fortunate GM's around the league.  Some of our fans have been spoiled by Mr. Henry gracious spending and can't handle the facts.


     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : I'm a 45 year loyal fan Utica, which is why I'm pointing out these facts our board experts have made excuses for.  I don't have an ego, just a passion for our team without sugar coating our past and present issues. Theo was an average GM, if you take the money away Henry gave him to spend he may be considered below average compared to other less fortunate GM's around the league.  Some of our fans have been spoiled by Mr. Henry gracious spending and can't handle the facts.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    Again i would have to disagree completely with your last statement and seems like you do as well. Most of theos smaller moneyball type deals have worked out its his big signings that dont look good.
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Couldn't spend the money? It wasn't Theo who signed Manny to a $160M contract. What Theo's critics never like to admit is this. As others pointed out, there's not doubt that Theo had a strong core with guys like Damon, Manny, Pedro, Tek and Lowe. But it was Theo who built up the team around him. In 2004, the infield, not including Tek, and most of the pitching staff and all the bench was all Theo. The Sox don't win in 2004 w/o those players. And beyond that -- look at the turnover between 2004 and 2007. Despite a remaking of the team, the Sox won something like 95 games every year except for 2006 when injuries hit the team, and if Theo's FA signings are all bust like you critics claim, then that must mean all his other moves must have been good. Also, what's overlooked in the Theo bashing is context. Take Cashman, for instance. Look at all the moves that didn't work out for him during the W.S. drought in the 2000s. And remember, a lot of that late '90s dynasty was contructed by Michaels (I think that was who it was). And what about the Mets or other big-market teams. All those GMs have had more than their fair share of busts. It goes with the territory. Name me any GM in any sport who hasn't made their fair share of bad moves.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    We are talking about Theo and one "20mil" player that probably helped us more than anyone in winning 2 WS.  Manny was our very first and only big contract before Theo was given the real cash flow. How many big signings besides Adrian "a success" has Theo made successfully compared to busts?   

    The Yankees are not part of this discussion unless your trying to make Theo look better than Cashman.  Neither should be mentioned in the great category for winning a ring or two during years of spending millions on busts.

       

    Theo is the subject roy!

     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Again i would have to disagree completely with your last statement and seems like you do as well. Most of theos smaller moneyball type deals have worked out its his big signings that dont look good.
    Posted by RSF4Life234[/QUOTE]

    If Theo was in Beanes shoes he would have been run out of town years ago.  Does Theo have a movie showing his skill?  Does Cashman?  No, because making good decisions have been few and far between.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : I'm a 45 year loyal fan Utica, which is why I'm pointing out these facts our board experts have made excuses for.  I don't have an ego, just a passion for our team without sugar coating our past and present issues. Theo was an average GM, if you take the money away Henry gave him to spend he may be considered below average compared to other less fortunate GM's around the league.  Some of our fans have been spoiled by Mr. Henry gracious spending and can't handle the facts.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    I guess that it would take a complex large spreadsheet to compare Theo's achievements compared to the other 29 GMs on a cost / benefit basis. Neither the pro-Theo or anti-Theo factions in here have the expertise or time and effort to undertake such a complex endeavor. Perhaps it is impossible to list all of the variables and prove causation and correlation. The battle has been going on in here for at least four years and neither side has won. It seems to me to be an excercise in futility. Sure it may be entertaining for newcomers to debate it into the ground. It is also not a black and white situation. What if the reality is that Theo was an average GM and there is a gray area. Do you enjoy the competition of debate so much that it never gets boring. Most in here are tired of beating a dead horse and have had their fill of it. Carry on if you find it interesting. It ranks right up there with other boring topics such as :

    Was Drew overpaid
    Did Crawford underperform
    Is Lackey overpaid
    Was Tito a good manager

    Isn't it time for the forum to chart new territory?
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from RSF4Life234. Show RSF4Life234's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : If Theo was in Beanes shoes he would have been run out of town years ago.  Does Theo have a movie showing his skill?  Does Cashman?  No, because making good decisions have been few and far between.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    The fact that they made a movie about Beane does not make him a better GM then Theo. They made a movie about him becuase he invented a new system of evaluating platers (one that theo embraces see carmine). Im done posting on this thread because it seems no matter how many facts point in the opposite direction of you Theo haters, you are going to hate him no matter what so in realty what is the point in even discussing it.
     
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