The real story of Theo Epstien

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : I guess that it would take a complex large spreadsheet to compare Theo's achievements compared to the other 29 GMs on a cost / benefit basis. Neither the pro-Theo or anti-Theo factions in here have the expertise or time and effort to undertake such a complex endeavor. Perhaps it is impossible to list all of the variables and prove causation and correlation. The battle has been going on in here for at least four years and neither side has won. It seems to me to be an excercise in futility. Sure it may be entertaining for newcomers to debate it into the ground. It is also not a black and white situation. What if the reality is that Theo was an average GM and there is a gray area. Do you enjoy the competition of debate so much that it never gets boring. Most in here are tired of beating a dead horse and have had their fill of it. Carry on if you find it interesting. It ranks right up there with other boring topics such as : Was Drew overpaid Did Crawford underperform Is Lackey overpaid Was Tito a good manager Isn't it time for the forum to chart new territory?
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

    Let me help Utica,

    Worst moves:
    Lugo, Drew, Penny, Smoltz, Wells, Piniero, Clement, Cameron, Crisp, Renteria, Dice K, Crawford, Lackey and a whole slew of horrible relief pitchers, way too many to mention. 
      We did have two WS which is great, but with a guy named Manny who Theo never signed. 

    Best moves:

    Schilling, Papi, Adrian and one year from Beltre and Victor even though we lost Masterson for something that should have been addressed after the 07 season.  Any other good signings?  maybe Scuter and a couple decent short term guys in all his years.  Want to count the millions of dollars in bad moves compared to the good?  I will leave that up to the stat experts.

    The worst part of all is what he left us with in 2011.  Sure, we will recover fairly quickly but you surely see my point.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : We are talking about Theo and one "20mil" player that probably helped us more than anyone in winning 2 WS.  Manny was our very first and only big contract before Theo was given the real cash flow. How many big signings besides Adrian "a success" has Theo made successfully compared to busts?    The Yankees are not part of this discussion unless your trying to make Theo look better than Cashman.  Neither should be mentioned in the great category for winning a ring or two during years of spending millions on busts.     Theo is the subject roy!
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    The success rate of big FA signings is very low.  According to fangraphs, of the 20 top-paid MLB players in 2011, only four were valued at or above what they were paid.  One of the four was Beckett.  Any GM would look like a failure if held to that standard.

    I think this argument boils down to one question - do you count Adrian Beltre as a failure or a success?  I look at Beltre and think we got one year of Beltre for 20 - 25% of his value, and we got Blake Swihart when he walked.  Others look at it as we let Beltre walk when we should have re-signed him for a big money long-term contract.  If you're in group A, you probably think Theo was a pretty good GM.  If you're in group B, you probably think he was a clown.



     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : We are talking about Theo and one "20mil" player that probably helped us more than anyone in winning 2 WS.  Manny was our very first and only big contract before Theo was given the real cash flow. How many big signings besides Adrian "a success" has Theo made successfully compared to busts?    The Yankees are not part of this discussion unless your trying to make Theo look better than Cashman.  Neither should be mentioned in the great category for winning a ring or two during years of spending millions on busts.     Theo is the subject roy!
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    My point, which you chose to ignore, is that all GMs have their fair share of bad signings. So simply listing all the bad signings puts no context to the discussion. It would be like taking a guy who hits .350 and list the 390 times he made outs in 600 at-bats. By itself, it looks terrible. But add context to it by comparing him to other hitters, and all of a sudden you realize that it wasn't that bad.

    But OK, let's forget about that. Let's move on. Manny wasn't the only big contract of the previous regime. The reason the Sox got Pedro was because the Expos coulsn't afford him, but the Sox had the money. And you're ignoring Johnny Damon.

    And you didn't address the fact that the Sox managed to win 95 games or so each year despite massive turnover after 2004 and win the W.S. And that success wasn't built on the backs of high-priced FA's that he picked. Remember -- didn't Theo supposedly fail miserably in signing FAs and had all these acquisitions who were busts. Someone had to win games.

    And for all the handwringing over the finish, this team was talented enough to be on a 100-win pace after five months, and it's supposedly the character of the players that led to the collapse, not the talent.

    As for Manny, yes he was great for the Sox, but one great player doesn't mean anything. It takes a complete team to win. Remember, Manny's 2007 numbers weren't anything special, yet that was the one year the Sox won the Division title.

    It's one thing to not sugar-coat things. That's fine. But to ignore the compete picture is hardly an honest assessment.

    Finally, Theo's is in a no-win situation when it concerns the money. Signing big-money FA's is always a big risk. So any GM who has a big budget is going to have some major busts on their resume. But if he doesn't spend the money, he or the owner is going to be ripped for not spending the money.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Couldn't spend the money? It wasn't Theo who signed Manny to a $160M contract. What Theo's critics never like to admit is this. As others pointed out, there's not doubt that Theo had a strong core with guys like Damon, Manny, Pedro, Tek and Lowe. But it was Theo who built up the team around him. In 2004, the infield, not including Tek, and most of the pitching staff and all the bench was all Theo. The Sox don't win in 2004 w/o those players. And beyond that -- look at the turnover between 2004 and 2007. Despite a remaking of the team, the Sox won something like 95 games every year except for 2006 when injuries hit the team, and if Theo's FA signings are all bust like you critics claim, then that must mean all his other moves must have been good. Also, what's overlooked in the Theo bashing is context.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    This notion that the team was rebuilt between 2004 and 2007 isn't very accurate and the 2 key additions, Beckett and Lowell were made by not Theo.  If you want to credit Theo for "rebuilding" with DiceK, Drew, Lugo and Gagne, that is a tough sell.  Aside from Oki, the only good additions Theo made were from the farm system, which is the only thing he really did well since 2004.



     
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : The success rate of big FA signings is very low.  According to fangraphs, of the 20 top-paid MLB players in 2011, only four were valued at or above what they were paid.  One of the four was Beckett.  Any GM would look like a failure if held to that standard. I think this argument boils down to one question - do you count Adrian Beltre as a failure or a success?  I look at Beltre and think we got one year of Beltre for 20 - 25% of his value, and we got Blake Swihart when he walked.  Others look at it as we let Beltre walk when we should have re-signed him for a big money long-term contract.  If you're in group A, you probably think Theo was a pretty good GM.  If you're in group B, you probably think he was a clown.
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]

    mag,

    I never once said Theo didn't make some good moves.
      Once you read hundreds of posts making excuses for the "dead weight veterans" and how great a GM Theo was I decided to point out these facts.  It's amazing to me how 2 WS rings which were great times for all of us can become a smoke screen for the truth.

    My one and only point to this thread is Theo was not a genius and our team will be fine without him.
      I'm not looking to upset Theo fans, but do have to wonder why some people can show the good and completely overlook the bad with a person, or player.


     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Let me help Utica, Worst moves: Lugo, Drew, Penny, Smoltz, Wells, Piniero, Clement, Cameron, Crisp, Renteria, Crawford, Lackey and a whole slew of horrible relief pitchers, way too many to mention.    We did have two WS which is great, but with a guy named Manny who Theo never signed.  Best moves: Schilling, Papi, Adrian and one year from Beltre and Victor even though we lost Masterson for something that should have been addressed after the 07 season.  Any other good signings?  maybe Scuter and a couple decent short term guys in all his years.  Want to count the millions of dollars in bad moves compared to the good?  I will leave that up to the stat experts. The worst part of all is what he left us with in 2011.  Sure, we will recover fairly quickly but you surely see my point.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    Jose Offerman, Carl Everett, Byun Hyun Kim, Ugueth Urbina, Cliff Floyd, Hideo Nomo.  If Manny was such a brilliant pickup, why didn't any other team claim him off waivers when given the chance?

    We had the second largest payroll in baseball in 2001 - only a few thousands of dollars away from the Yankees, yet we finished 3 games over .500.


     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : This notion that the team was rebuilt between 2004 and 2007 isn't very accurate and the 2 key additions, Beckett and Lowell were made by not Theo.  If you want to credit Theo for "rebuilding" with DiceK, Drew, Lugo and Gagne, that is a tough sell.  Aside from Oki, the only good additions Theo made were from the farm system, which is the only thing he really did well since 2004.  
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    The farm system is very much part of the discussion. Why shouldn't they be included?

    2004-2007
    C Tek-Tek
    1B Millar-Youk
    2B Bellhorn-Pedroia
    SS Cabrera-Lugo
    3B Mueller-Lowell
    DH Ortiz-Ortiz
    LF Manny-Manny
    CF Damon-Crisp/Ellsbury
    RF Nixon-Drew
    P Schilling-Schilling
    P Pedro-Lowe
    P Lowe-DiceK
    P Wake-Wake
    P Arroyo-Tavarez/Lester
    Cl Foulke-Papelbon
    R Timlin-Timlin

    I'm stopping here, but the bench and rest of the bullpen were also remade. The bold names are the holdovers. Looks to me it was rebuilt, regardless of where they came from.

    The Gagne mention is absolutely ridiculous. The Sox got him to try to get some bullpen depth for the stretch run. What does it matter if he didn't work out in clutch situations? The Sox still won the W.S. And beyond that, there wasn't a baseball analyst around who thought it was a bad deal

    And as for Lowell-Beckett. There were reports that he was on the phone with the FO every day, so we really don't know how much is fingerprints were on the deal.

    Also, look it up. Drew was an upgrade in RF from Nixon the year before and his numbers were similar to what Nixon put up. So from a production standpoint, he was the same. If you look at the market, the Sox didn't have many options at the time to upgrade in RF. You might think he was overpaid but based on the market, he wasn't.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Jose Offerman, Carl Everett, Byun Hyun Kim, Ugueth Urbina, Cliff Floyd, Hideo Nomo.  If Manny was such a brilliant pickup, why didn't any other team claim him off waivers when given the chance? We had the second largest payroll in baseball in 2001 - only a few thousands of dollars away from the Yankees, yet we finished 3 games over .500.
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]

    Great find. The Sox were hardly a small-market team before Henry and Co.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]Theo took over a 90+ win 2nd place team with a huge contract in LF and left a 90+ win 3rd place team with a huge contract in LF. 
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    The problem is being "left" with a huge contract upon coming helped win the team 2 WS titles, and the problem with what he "left" behind, that contract is an absolute albatross that may sink the Sox even farther than this year's collapse.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : mag, I never once said Theo didn't make some good moves.   Once you read hundreds of posts making excuses for the "dead weight veterans" and how great a GM Theo was I decided to point out these facts.  It's amazing to me how 2 WS rings which were great times for all of us can become a smoke screen for the truth. My one and only point to this thread is Theo was not a genius and our team will be fine without him.   I'm not looking to upset Theo fans, but do have to wonder why some people can show the good and completely overlook the bad with a person, or player.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    I hope you're right, but I think over-paying for Free Agents is the worst way to judge a GM.  You're giving points to guys who have never been and will never be in the position to make these gambles - is there any large market GM in baseball who you can point to, using the same criteria, to prove his brilliance?


     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    I agree with roy on most of his comments on this thread, Theo did his job for the most part and did not deserve to be kicked elsewhere. I was just fine with him being a GM, didn't always agree with his moves, but like roy said, the track record of GMs are bad signings and good signings, some more bad than others, some brilliantly good.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    .In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : My point, which you chose to ignore, is that all GMs have their fair share of bad signings. So simply listing all the bad signings puts no context to the discussion. It would be like taking a guy who hits .350 and list the 390 times he made outs in 600 at-bats. By itself, it looks terrible. But add context to it by comparing him to other hitters, and all of a sudden you realize that it wasn't that bad. But OK, let's forget about that. Let's move on. Manny wasn't the only big contract of the previous regime. The reason the Sox got Pedro was because the Expos coulsn't afford him, but the Sox had the money. And you're ignoring Johnny Damon. And you didn't address the fact that the Sox managed to win 95 games or so each year despite massive turnover after 2004 and win the W.S. And that success wasn't built on the backs of high-priced FA's that he picked. Remember -- didn't Theo supposedly fail miserably in signing FAs and had all these acquisitions who were busts. Someone had to win games. And for all the handwringing over the finish, this team was talented enough to be on a 100-win pace after five months, and it's supposedly the character of the players that led to the collapse, not the talent. As for Manny, yes he was great for the Sox, but one great player doesn't mean anything. It takes a complete team to win. Remember, Manny's 2007 numbers weren't anything special, yet that was the one year the Sox won the Division title. It's one thing to not sugar-coat things. That's fine. But to ignore the compete picture is hardly an honest assessment. Finally, Theo's is in a no-win situation when it concerns the money. Signing big-money FA's is always a big risk. So any GM who has a big budget is going to have some major busts on their resume. But if he doesn't spend the money, he or the owner is going to be ripped for not spending the money.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    My opology roy, I wasn't intentionally overlooking it, just forgot about Pedro and Damon.  I see your point and agree.  Yes, it takes an entire team to win a WC "not just Manny" Damon, Pedro and Scill all played a part. 
    .
    Just my opinion,  but Theo was far from a genius if you compare the good and bad signings that left our team partially crippled as we speak.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : The problem is being "left" with a huge contract upon coming helped win the team 2 WS titles, and the problem with what he "left" behind, that contract is an absolute albatross that may sink the Sox even farther than this year's collapse.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]Fair enough. The team still is in better shape when he leaves than it was when he came once the temper tantrums about who bad the the 7-20 finish was.

    The problem here is that he was neither a genius or an idiot but like so many BDC threads this one is trying to make two extreme cases. 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]I agree with roy on most of his comments on this thread, Theo did his job for the most part and did not deserve to be kicked elsewhere. I was just fine with him being a GM, didn't always agree with his moves, but like roy said, the track record of GMs are bad signings and good signings, some more bad than others, some brilliantly good.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    Like I said DC its just my opinion and the proof is where are team stands today, not during 04 and 07.
      Trading Nomar was one of Theo's correct/great moves.  It's the same move our new GM needs to take with our current veterans in order for us to improve.  It's not just the most current signings crippling our team, regardless whether some choose to overlook it.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE].In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : My opology roy, I wasn't intentionally overlooking it, just forgot about Pedro and Damon.  I see your point and agree.  Yes, it takes an entire team to win a WC "not just Manny" Damon, Pedro and Scill all played a part.  . Just my opinion,  but Theo was far from a genius if you compare the good and bad signings that left our team partially crippled as we speak.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    Personally, I hated when he was called genius. To me, he was a very good GM and one of the top GMs in the game. He was an upgrade IMO over Duquette and did a lot of good things. But he also had his share of bad signings/deals and unlucky signings/deals.

    I put him tied with Dick O'Connell as the best GM in Sox history. Different eras so it's hard to compare.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Fair enough. The team still is in better shape when he leaves than it was when he came once the temper tantrums about who bad the the 7-20 finish was. The problem here is that he was neither a genius or an idiot but like so many BDC threads this one is trying to make two extreme cases. 
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    Fair enough katz, great choice of words but either way, six of one and half dozen of the other doesn't equal genius.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Personally, I hated when he was called genius. To me, he was a very good GM and one of the top GMs in the game. He was an upgrade IMO over Duquette and did a lot of good things. But he also had his share of bad signings/deals and unlucky signings/deals. I put him tied with Dick O'Connell as the best GM in Sox history. Different eras so it's hard to compare.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    katz put it pretty well, part genius and part idiot.  I lost respect for Theo over the years.  Winning two rings was huge but I wasn't too impressed compared to other GM's since who have much less to work with.

     
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from OnDeckCircle. Show OnDeckCircle's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    Looks like it's time to air out some dirty laundry    .....................


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46bBWBG9r2o&feature=related
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    Duquette saddled the Sox with such future cancers as Varitek and Wakefield...oh wait, I thought for a second we were talking about geniuses...
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]Duquette saddled the Sox with such future cancers as Varitek and Wakefield...oh wait, I thought for a second we were talking about geniuses...
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    Duquette had some nice moves including Manny.  Theo knew when to trade Nomar but lost the same focus with others.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : The farm system is very much part of the discussion. Why shouldn't they be included? 2004-2007 C Tek-Tek 1B Millar-Youk 2B Bellhorn-Pedroia SS Cabrera-Lugo 3B Mueller-Lowell DH Ortiz-Ortiz LF Manny-Manny CF Damon-Crisp/Ellsbury RF Nixon-Drew P Schilling-Schilling P Pedro-Lowe P Lowe-DiceK P Wake-Wake P Arroyo-Tavarez/Lester Cl Foulke-Papelbon R Timlin-Timlin I'm stopping here, but the bench and rest of the bullpen were also remade. The bold names are the holdovers. Looks to me it was rebuilt, regardless of where they came from. The Gagne mention is absolutely ridiculous. The Sox got him to try to get some bullpen depth for the stretch run. What does it matter if he didn't work out in clutch situations? The Sox still won the W.S. And beyond that, there wasn't a baseball analyst around who thought it was a bad deal And as for Lowell-Beckett. There were reports that he was on the phone with the FO every day, so we really don't know how much is fingerprints were on the deal. Also, look it up. Drew was an upgrade in RF from Nixon the year before and his numbers were similar to what Nixon put up. So from a production standpoint, he was the same. If you look at the market, the Sox didn't have many options at the time to upgrade in RF. You might think he was overpaid but based on the market, he wasn't.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    Drew was not overpaid?  You obviously don't feel like having a realistic conversation.  Here comes the OPS vs. other A.L. RF arugument, right? 

    Why is the mention of the Gagne trade ridiculous?  David Murphy is playing in his second straight world series this week.  This is the classic Theo defense, some how all his bad moves get dismissed based on some arbitrary criteria.  Just like your "he was on the phone" during the Beckett/Lowell discussions, Theo fans always want to have it both ways.  He wasn't the GM or even a Red Sox employee when the deal was made, end of story. 

    I agree about the farm system, it absolutely helped lead to 2007 victory and Theo deserves tons of credit for that, but Theo did not "rebuild" the team from 2004 to 2007.   
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    The number of people who actually called Epstein a genius would be approximately equal to the number who called the 2011 Red Sox the best team ever, and Jacoby Ellsbury the next Ted Williams.
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Fair enough. The team still is in better shape when he leaves than it was when he came once the temper tantrums about who bad the the 7-20 finish was.
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    That is debateable.  He took over a 93 win team and he certainly is leaving more questionable contracts than he inherited.  The farm system is obviously better but his biggest problem, in his mind, was Manny, who was a top 5 hitter in the league, Crawford is not top 5 on this team.  He didn't inherit a Lackey contract.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : That is debateable.  He took over a 93 win team and he certainly is leaving more questionable contracts than he inherited.  The farm system is obviously better but his biggest problem, in his mind, was Manny, who was a top 5 hitter in the league, Crawford is not top 5 on this team.  He didn't inherit a Lackey contract.
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]


    The farm improved during Theo's time but to give him a great deal of credit for their development is debatable.  The fact is, in 02 we were probably close to as good of team as we were in 07 or 8, but the Yankees were more dominant which prevented us from possibly having the same success with WS rings.  From 07 to present we have been riding old horses and making more bad moves than good with similar success.

    Since 07 wins have been:
    2011 - 90, 7 games back
    2010 - 87, 6 games back
    2009 - 90, 8.5 games back
    2008 - 94, 1.5 games back

    Is this team really better than the one Theo inherited?
      Can't really agree the farm is much better at the moment either. 
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Drew was not overpaid?  You obviously don't feel like having a realistic conversation.  Here comes the OPS vs. other A.L. RF arugument, right?  Why is the mention of the Gagne trade ridiculous?  David Murphy is playing in his second straight world series this week.  This is the classic Theo defense, some how all his bad moves get dismissed based on some arbitrary criteria.  Just like your "he was on the phone" during the Beckett/Lowell discussions, Theo fans always want to have it both ways.  He wasn't the GM or even a Red Sox employee when the deal was made, end of story.  I agree about the farm system, it absolutely helped lead to 2007 victory and Theo deserves tons of credit for that, but Theo did not "rebuild" the team from 2004 to 2007.   
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    Actually I thought Drew was  overpaid, but I also know that sometimes you have to overpay to fill a need. What people like you fail to do is not look at the big picture.

    Nixon was washed up in 2007. He batted  .252 with 3 HR 31 RBI. So if not Drew, who exactly should have the Sox gotten for RF in 2007?

    So you're saying the reason the Rangers have been to the W.S. two years in a row is David Murphy? OK. Now who doesn't feel like having a realistic conversation. Murphy is a ice player but he had no spot on the Sox at the time. And again with Gagne -- find me someone who thought it was a bad deal at the time. Gagne was just a rental anyway. Either way, he was gone after 2007. So regardless how he did, the SOX STILL WON THE W.S. All you bashers of the Gagne deal would have a great point about the deal if the Sox fell short because of the bullpen. But that didn't happen. 

    Actually, if you want to rip Gagne for signings or deals, stich Crawford, Lackey and Lugo. Whipping out Gagne all the time just make you look silly.

    And Theo didn't rebuild the team between 2004 and 2007. All but five, maybe six, players are different than the 2004 team. So how would you describe it.
     
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