The real story of Theo Epstien

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]I've been saying for years that Theo recklessly neglected to put into place any kind of contigency plan for a catcher once Tek fell off the deep end in 2008.
    Posted by andrewmitch[/QUOTE]

    andrewmitch, I agree but you simply can't convince a few on this board otherwise.  Even after Wake and Tek are gone they will be still presenting stats that show our new catchers and fifth/6th starter are much worse. 
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]I've been saying for years that Theo recklessly neglected to put into place any kind of contigency plan for a catcher once Tek fell off the deep end in 2008.
    Posted by andrewmitch[/QUOTE]

    Yes, his numbers declined, but he's still the 24th best catcher by OPS since 2008 and was about 16th in 2011... as a back-up.

    Our back-up catcher should not be such a major concern. Finding a catcher who can do all the things a catcher is supposed to do should be a priority, but rigth now, the FO has bigger issues than catcher.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : andrewmitch, I agree but you simply can't convince a few on this board otherwise.  Even after Wake and Tek are gone they will be still presenting stats that show our new catchers and fifth/6th starter are much worse. 
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    There are many players out there better than VTek and Wake. I hope we can get some. You keep taking my position out of context. It's all about priorities and a somewhat fixed budget. To fill so many vacant slots well will require "going light" somewhere. My position is that if we end up going light at 6th starter and back-up catcher, Wake and Vtek are viable options our of a few good options.

    If we get a good "catcher relevent" catcher here next year, and the staff tanks: I won't blame the new catcher. If we go with just Salty and lava, and the staff tanks, yes, i will bring it up. When next July we have to trade a top OF prospwect for a guy like Bedard, yes, I will bring up Wake's name.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    They were both pretty much done after 2008

    Granted Wake had a nice first half in 2009 and Tek had a nice first half in I believe it was 2010 that's what?  15-20% of their tenures post 2008? 

    Theo made some great moves - the Nomar & Schilling trades, giving Pedroia & Ortiz a chance, and drafting Ellsbury & Buck will be his legacy but he moved away from that philisophy and became nothing more than a poor man's "Cash"-man.......
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    Moon - you make some very good, well thought out posts however, you really need to give it a rest w/ the OPS.......averages of aggregates of averages are so far from the truth it is beyond just deceiving....plus, how does OPS block balls and throw out runners?  you are really off-base on this one........

    To me, the perfect back up catcher was Mirabelli.  A guy who was a good backstop, would could control the running game, and every once in a while would run into one.....he was relatively young and relatively extremely inexpensive.  Hmmm, who made the trade to bring him here?  Oh that's right, it was the Duke........
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    moon, Theo should have seen from 2008 on that Tek was no longer a help offensively.  At the time, because we had Wake we were unable to find a decent back up because Tek couldn't catch him. 

    Wake had a great 2008 season and finished 5th in WHIP in the AL ahead of all Sox starters. He was also doing fine in 2009 before we got VMart by making the Allstar game.

    I don't think we got Cash and Kottaras for Wake, so I think blaming Wake
    for our "poor back-ups" is not really what happened. I actually like the kottaras trade. he was a highly touted young catching prospect that was put under enormous pressure here in Boston. I still think he may turn into a decnt MLb catcher.

    (By the way, I was against Theo signing Vtek to $10M/2.)

    So finally years later Theo signs Victor  who hit the ball, caught Wake and played good enough defense to get us to the WS if not for injuries. 

    1.6 years later VMart came in and did a great job with Wake. It's too bad he didn't do too well with several other pitchers, and the ones he did do well with, mostly did much better with Vtek anyways.

    (By the way, I wanted VMart back, and when i heard that he signed with detroit for about $2M more per year than our offer, I said it was a mistake.)
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    "It's the post season stupid"..........no insult intended....

    Wake did NOT have a great 2008 Season - unless of course you decided NOT to watch the playoffs and how Upton and Longo absolutely mashed him....Not to mention the all the BB's....and just in case you don't realize this, falling down on your butt twice while attempting to field bunts does not make it into stats such as ERA and WHIP......Wake's Post Season ERA since G1 of the 2004 WS is something like SEVEN and his WHIP is over TWO.........w/ absolutely no quality appearances to speak of......so he was in fact, consistently horrific.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : andrewmitch, I agree but you simply can't convince a few on this board otherwise.  Even after Wake and Tek are gone they will be still presenting stats that show our new catchers and fifth/6th starter are much worse. 
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    Man, I am going to listen to you now!!!!!  :)
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rutland76. Show Rutland76's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    Theo wasn't perfect but the Cubs consider him to be the best GM available and their fans are ecstatic over the prospect of signing him. You might want to ask the Cubs ownership and fans for their reasons. Go to a Cubs forum and start attacking him if that is what pleases you.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]Theo wasn't perfect but the Cubs consider him to be the best GM available and their fans are ecstatic over the prospect of signing him. You might want to ask the Cubs ownership and fans for their reasons. Go to a Cubs forum and start attacking him if that is what pleases you.
    Posted by Rutland76[/QUOTE]

    Would you really ask an ownership or their fans about someone they just met and have only read about?  Or fans that lived through his term as GM?  Cub fans can make their own evaluation in the next five years,  For the Sox it was time for him to move on.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    It's a simple matter of the HALO EFFECT

    Theo will be credited with ending Boston's drought and the Cubs fans are hopeful he can do the same

    HALO EFFECT because Duquette had more to do w/ 2004 and the Beckett/Lowell trade for 2007 had nothing to do w/ Theo (Beckett was by far the team MVP in 2007 and Lowell was a key contributor - perhaps the 3rd most important bat in the line up).....

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]It's a simple matter of the HALO EFFECT Theo will be credited with ending Boston's drought and the Cubs fans are hopeful he can do the same HALO EFFECT because Duquette had more to do w/ 2004 and the Beckett/Lowell trade for 2007 had nothing to do w/ Theo (Beckett was by far the team MVP in 2007 and Lowell was a key contributor - perhaps the 3rd most important bat in the line up).....
    Posted by andrewmitch[/QUOTE]

    I just can't wait until we get back to the real tasks.  Get compensation for Theo, hire a nanager and begin working on the best possible deal to lose Lackey and the rest of our dead weight.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]It's a simple matter of the HALO EFFECT Theo will be credited with ending Boston's drought and the Cubs fans are hopeful he can do the same HALO EFFECT because Duquette had more to do w/ 2004 and the Beckett/Lowell trade for 2007 had nothing to do w/ Theo (Beckett was by far the team MVP in 2007 and Lowell was a key contributor - perhaps the 3rd most important bat in the line up).....
    Posted by andrewmitch[/QUOTE]

    Why so many Duquette worshippers and Theo bashers. Was it Theo's religion? Never could understand the blatant hatred for the guy.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from summerof67. Show summerof67's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Why so many Duquette worshippers and Theo bashers. Was it Theo's religion? Never could understand the blatant hatred for the guy.
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

    Shoot, Lowell was only the WS MVP in 2007.

    Heck, yes, he was a contributor. Darn shame about his hip.  Wondering if we're going to have deja vu all over again with Youk. Not looking forward to seeing another decline in a 3B's gifts over a season...
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    Theo made mistakes.  List 'em all.  Go right ahead.

    Some of the guys you name weren't so much mistakes as doing what almost any good manager will try ... to get something good for a less than prime price.  That happens with everyone from furniture rebuilds, realty remakes, auto reconstructs ... heck, even haircuts.

    Having John Henry, a hedge fund fella of some reknown, taking chances with the hope of making a good deal at a bargain price is almost a given for Theo to try.  Bartolo Colon?  He tried ... and somehow after being brought back from the scrap heap by Theo, he got the gumption to have surgery and secret treatments and "Viola!" the Yanquis took a chance an it worked.  Detroit tried Penny, too. 

    Truth be told, more deals go bad than good for all GMs ... the fact of the matter is that Theo made enough to bring a couple of World Series Crowns here.

    As noted by a fairly famous Red Sox player, baseball is the only game were you can fail 70% of the time and still be a star.  From 1918 to 2004, every GM failed.

    Every one.

    And you still say, Theo wasn't all that good.

    He was GOOD ENOUGH to bring, WITH ALL THE PRIOR TALENT ABOARD, the 2004 Crown home.  He WAS GOOD ENOUGH to help do it again in 2007.

    THAT IS THE REAL STORY OF THEO EPSTEIN.


    He failed, 6 out of 8 times.

    OOPS .... he SUCCEEDED TWICE.  Out of EIGHT.

    Not NONE OUT OF 86 ....
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Why so many Duquette worshippers and Theo bashers. Was it Theo's religion? Never could understand the blatant hatred for the guy.
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

    Yes, you nailed it.  It's all about Theo's religion.

    What a pathetic statement
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    Generally speaking, I had been a supporter of Theo.  He made some good moves and some bad ones.  But lately it was more moves like JD Drew and less moves like Billy Muellar.  And then, the WATERLOO deal was Crawful.  This is where my support for Theo came to an end.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : There are many players out there better than VTek and Wake. I hope we can get some. You keep taking my position out of context. It's all about priorities and a somewhat fixed budget. To fill so many vacant slots well will require "going light" somewhere. My position is that if we end up going light at 6th starter and back-up catcher, Wake and Vtek are viable options our of a few good options. If we get a good "catcher relevent" catcher here next year, and the staff tanks: I won't blame the new catcher. If we go with just Salty and lava, and the staff tanks, yes, i will bring it up. When next July we have to trade a top OF prospwect for a guy like Bedard, yes, I will bring up Wake's name.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Fair enough moon, just give them a couple years.  I never said they would learn what Tek has in 15 seasons.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    This comparison of Theo vs. Duquette has been going on for five years here. It has a life of its own like the EverReady rabbit. Most fans outside of this forum couldn't care less on how many of the 2004 and 2007 players were attributed to which GM. Why not label both GMs as being good. Why the need to make the comparisons? Is it an ego game that can only be satisfied by 3000 hours of debate and childish fights? Give it a rest, Duquette and Theo are now history. Give a trophy to each debate team and move on.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]It's a simple matter of the HALO EFFECT Theo will be credited with ending Boston's drought and the Cubs fans are hopeful he can do the same HALO EFFECT because Duquette had more to do w/ 2004 and the Beckett/Lowell trade for 2007 had nothing to do w/ Theo (Beckett was by far the team MVP in 2007 and Lowell was a key contributor - perhaps the 3rd most important bat in the line up).....
    Posted by andrewmitch[/QUOTE]

    Andrew,

       With all due respect to Duquette ... and I do give him a lot of kudos (Pedro, Manny and Papi are all part of his gifting tot he Red Sox, am I right?)  Who can fault him for that?  (PEDs excluded and Manny's last year thrown out) ... the fact remains, and this isn't to belittle Duquette, that the pieces did come together with Theo in charge (or in the gorilla suit, which opens another avenue to say he didn't do so much, I know) ...

       I think it is fine to give Duquette credit .... I also personally hated his treatment of Wade Boggs and Roger Clemens at the time.  I will admit, I was really ignorant of the Rocket's situation, totally sold by the sell job that SI gave him as the unlimate hard worker .... and in those days, I lived in a place where NO Red Sox news came except on the local, thin, sports page.

       I still don't like what he did to Boggs.

       But I will totally credit the vast amount of talent he helped acquire.

       All that being said, Theo gets the credit for trading Nomah (I screamed at the tv when I heard that one) and bringing in OCab.  That seemed to be the missing link.  (Point made, craze, that Theo let him go and the Rentaria didn't work out - gave up on BOTH too soon, IMO)

       Along with Schilling ... but that was preseason and OCab was half way (or more) through ...

       Thus, Theo gets credit for winning.  Duquette DIDN'T win ... even with all that talent.  (Sweet lineup with Nomah, Papi and Manny .... whew!)

       Maybe that is where we ruffle each others feathers.  As we speak about how good one GM is, we somehow seem to cast dispersions on some others.

      I think it really is a case of good, gooder and ... great that it all worked out even goodest ...   

      
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]This comparison of Theo vs. Duquette has been going on for five years here. It has a life of its own like the EverReady rabbit. Most fans outside of this forum couldn't care less on how many of the 2004 and 2007 players were attributed to which GM. Why not label both GMs as being good. Why the need to make the comparisons? Is it an ego game that can only be satisfied by 3000 hours of debate and childish fights? Give it a rest, Duquette and Theo are now history. Give a trophy to each debate team and move on.
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

    Utica, you haven't been here long enough which isn't meant as an insult trust me.  This is what our forum is all about, when it gets real ugly most of us realize it and slow things down until we agree, or agree to disagree.  Its not any disrespect towards any of our fans.

    Just a friendy difference of opinions that at times get heated.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from GLeone. Show GLeone's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    Many of our ex-GMs look better in the rear view mirrow (Duke, Gorman, O'Connell, etc.).  We groaned during each of their tenures and Theo is no different.  A point that was made earlier is: what percent do we expect out of our next GM?  Hopefully not 100%, cuz it ain't gonna happen!

    I think Theo did a better than expected job here.  We won two championships, but to do that, he had to make a bunch of mistakes.  Great that we have the resources to absorb those mistakes.  We tend to like action and he gave it to us.  I, for one, am not heartbroken that he is going.  Thanks for the memories.  I like that Cherrington was groomed for the job and I don't think we'll see a downgrade in GM performance, and hopefully a higher "batting average" when acquiring players.

    The Crawford signing gets a lot of heat after this first year.  Some didn't like it from the beginning.  I have to say I was psyched and was always pulling for him.  I hope he has a great 2012.  My biggest complaint will be (if it happen that) we can't resign Ells to a big contract because of the current budget.  There is NO WAY I want CC over Ells.  So hopefully they figure that out.  But, I look forward to seeing how Crawford does next year before I throw him under the bus.

    I have to agree (with no personal knowledge) with Henry that there is a shelf life on these jobs (GM and Mgr).  I think that both they and we need a change of management to get a better result next year.  I remain a hopeless Red Sox fan who hopes for the best and groans with each loss.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from law2009a. Show law2009a's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    m
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    GLeone - do you think that in 2012 that Crawful will somehow, magically learn how to hit the cut off man?  As much as I hated Drew at least he knew how to hit the cut off man.  Any kid over the age of 13 in Little League knows how to hit the cut off man.  But for some reason Carl "The Cannon" Crawford doesn't think it applies to his lollipop of an arm.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]Many of our ex-GMs look better in the rear view mirrow (Duke, Gorman, O'Connell, etc.).  We groaned during each of their tenures and Theo is no different.  A point that was made earlier is: what percent do we expect out of our next GM?  Hopefully not 100%, cuz it ain't gonna happen! I think Theo did a better than expected job here.  We won two championships, but to do that, he had to make a bunch of mistakes.  Great that we have the resources to absorb those mistakes.  We tend to like action and he gave it to us.  I, for one, am not heartbroken that he is going.  Thanks for the memories.  I like that Cherrington was groomed for the job and I don't think we'll see a downgrade in GM performance, and hopefully a higher "batting average" when acquiring players. The Crawford signing gets a lot of heat after this first year.  Some didn't like it from the beginning.  I have to say I was psyched and was always pulling for him.  I hope he has a great 2012.  My biggest complaint will be (if it happen that) we can't resign Ells to a big contract because of the current budget.  There is NO WAY I want CC over Ells.  So hopefully they figure that out.  But, I look forward to seeing how Crawford does next year before I throw him under the bus. I have to agree (with no personal knowledge) with Henry that there is a shelf life on these jobs (GM and Mgr).  I think that both they and we need a change of management to get a better result next year.  I remain a hopeless Red Sox fan who hopes for the best and groans with each loss.
    Posted by GLeone[/QUOTE]

    The bottom line right now is for the Cubs to stop throwing the garbage on their farn at us for our GM and part of his staff.  If I'm Larry I offer Theo, a couple of his faithful and Weiland who Theo had pitch five times down the stretch for Garza.  Otherwise walk awy and let Theo sit out a year before going anywhere.
     
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