The real story of Theo Epstien

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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : I'm clearly stating that the Cubs' will make a playoff appearance within 3 years and I'm more than willing to back that up with consequences.  I see that you're not. 
    Posted by Sheriff-Rojas[/QUOTE]

    Next year there will be 15 teams in each league, next year 5 teams will make the play-offs in each league, so times 3 years that is 15 teams. Mathematically it is not exactly a bold prediction you are making. 
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Maybe because I don't care, ever think of that?  I said Theo will have his work cut out for him and he will.  Other than that I wish the Cubs and their fans well.  Do you really think you can just demand someone to take a bet because your upset.  Try backing up your statements in a friendly thread like everyone else if you like Theo so much.  Just make sure you read through the thread first so you know what your doing and not just throwing out crazy propositions.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    Oh, and by the way, Craze, if you don't care, why do you keep responding to me?  This is also obvious.  That you care, that is. 
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    Oh Please....everyone knows that Theo's only choice for a Right Fielder was David Jonathan Drew, everyone knows that the only way we could have gotten him was for 5 years 70 million dollars, everyone knows he played the greatest defense for the hardest position in baseball, everyone knows he was the best right fielder during his tenure in Boston, everyone knows we don't win the 2007 World Series without him, and of course, everyone knows that he was worth "a tick more than 14 million a year"......

     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : roy, I used such a comparison just last night.  One showed our 2009/10 and 11 W/L records which left us with 90 wins "two of the three years" but and average of 7.5 games out of first place each season.  Our 02/03 and 04 team to whatever you want to give Theo credit for actually won an average of about 5 or 6 more games each year but the Yankees were a power house.  In reality Theo came here with a thin farm and left us in the same way, with the team also winning less games the past three years than when he originally took over.  If you count a 90 win season a success I agree, but it doesn't cut in in our division in most cases. Someone said Theo left us in better shape than when he arrived.  How is that when you look at the above statement?  Just because we won two WS way back in 04 and 07?  All I'm saying is since then we have failed to maintain our focus.  This in my opinion makes Theo an average GM, or above average but not great considering what he has had to work with.  I understand he helped build the farm to maintain a competitive team but are we really a better club as a result?
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    Actually we don't know how well he left the farm system. (Rankings by Baseball America don't mean a thing). That can't be determined for a couple of years. First, it's idiotic to to expect a farm system to be consistently deep. Evaluating talent isn't a science. All farm systems have their ups and downs. Even if it is thin, you're ignoring all the years it was producing a key player or two every year and providing prospects for trades.

    Second, like I said, we don't know how strong it is. If Lavarnway contributes next year and Weiland emerges (as a starter or key reliever), Middleton, Ranaudo and Kalish the year after (or Kalish next year), then Bentz or even Westmoreland the year after, would you still say he left it weak? (And I didn't even mention some other prospects that are considered strong prospects).

    Plus, had Theo not traded Kelly, Fuentes and Rizzo, the system would have looked stronger, but would that have been the right call? This goes back to the damned if you do and damned if you don't in regard to prospects. He trades them for a player like Adrian Gonzalez so now the farm systen is thin one year removed from that. He doesn't make the trade and he's overvaluing the prospects.

    And simply looking at W-L records shows no depth in thinking. Last year, the Sox had an unprecedented number of injuries. No team can withstand losing 2/3 of the starting OF for most of the year, an All-Star second baseman for half a year and an All-Star first baseman for two months, along with the injuries on the pitching staff. You can't put that on Theo. Sometimes sht happens.

    And this year, he assembled enough talent to build a team that won on a 100-win pace for five months. FIVE MONTHS, not just two or three. The collapse in September had less to do with the talent he acquired and more to do with other issues. Yes, Crawford underachieved as did Lackey and the pitching had other issues. But all those issues were prevelent the first five months. Had Bard, Papelbon, Beckett and Lester just continued to produce like that had all year -- nothing more -- the Sox would have cruised to the playoffs. 

    And to say the Sox failed to maintain "our focus" again ignores the realities of the real world. No team can have a consistent straight line at the top, not even the Yankees. You chart a team's success year to year and there are going to be ups and downs. Just because he's leaving when the curve is near the low part doesn't mean you ignore the other years.

    By the standard you're using to judge Theo as average, it's impossible for any GM who is in charge for longer than three or four years to be judged any higher.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sheriff-Rojas. Show Sheriff-Rojas's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Next year there will be 15 teams in each league, next year 5 teams will make the play-offs in each league, so times 3 years that is 15 teams. Mathematically it is not exactly a bold prediction you are making. 
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    The Cubs still have a long way to go just to even get to be the fifth playoff team.  I'm just trying to provide some tangible measurement that would constitute success for Theo as a GM within a reasonable time frame.  Being in the playoffs means the Cubs have a chance.  I'm sure given where they are right now, most Cubs' fans would be satisfied at the 3 year mark if this were to happen.  It will have meant they've made a lot of progress.
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Look, Mr. Affability, it's not a matter of liking or disliking Theo Epstein.  It's a matter of backing up your words.  What is so crazy about that proposition other than it will show that I had confidence in Theo Epstein to do a good job as a GM and you don't want to stand by anything you say.   You're showing you're gutless.  It's obvious.
    Posted by Sheriff-Rojas[/QUOTE]

    Gutless?  My last statement Mr. Sheriff, challenging me as you did was childish, especially your statement after.  Read it again and tell me it was a well thought out/mature statement.  If you still feel it is, then you have issues I can't help with.     
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : The Cubs still have a long way to go just to even get to be the fifth playoff team.  I'm just trying to provide some tangible measurement that would constitute success for Theo as a GM within a reasonable time frame.  Being in the playoffs means the Cubs have a chance.  I'm sure given where they are right now, most Cubs' fans would be satisfied at the 3 year mark if this were to happen.  It will have meant they've made a lot of progress.
    Posted by Sheriff-Rojas[/QUOTE]

    3 full off-seasons, I'd say that is plenty of time.  With financial messes in LA and NY, the Cubs operate with more resources than any other NL team than Philly.  They had the best record in the NL in 2008 and were over .500 in 2009, it is not like Theo is taking over the Royals here. 
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Gutless?   My last statement Mr. Sheriff, challenging me as you did was childish, especially your statement after.  Read it again and tell me it was a well thought out/mature statement.  If you still feel it is, then you have issues I can't help with.     
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    I never claimed it was a "mature" statement.  OK, so you didn't shut up.  I didn't expect that you would anyway.  But let's get back to the Cubs' proposition.  Do you, or do you not, believe the Cubs will make the playoffs in the next three years with Theo as GM?  Let's see if you can just answer that question first, and if you believe that answer is no, would you willing to stake something tangible on it for both of us, be it mature or not?     
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    For all the angst that gas been leveled on this board about whethter one man's opinion or anothers is right borders on lunacy! Faxt the first team in 04 was made up of more Dan's players than Theo's and yes Theo did make the trade of Nomar to get OCab, he also spent Thanksgiving with the Schillings in AZ while courting Curt and the rest of that story has been written,as for his overall stay as GM he has done well in some areas and not so well in others. I'm not saddened by his possible departure nor am I unhappy to see Sit and Spit go away ! Oh by the way I'm a 50 year fan!! Not a bandwagoner so save the insults for the next guy. I hope Cherington does a bang up job and wins the WSC for the next three years and longer God willing. The gfuy who has the toughest job will be the new manager because he has to deal with several guys with multi year long dollar contracts and at least one of them is virtually untradeable John ShaLackey,if I were the Sox when asking for compensation for Theo's services I'ld include Lackey and his contract as a part of the deal....
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : 3 full off-seasons, I'd say that is plenty of time.  With financial messes in LA and NY, the Cubs operate with more resources than any other NL team than Philly.  They had the best record in the NL in 2008 and were over .500 in 2009, it is not like Theo is taking over the Royals here. 
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    Well, then, to some extent, you agree with me.  But it goes back to: what do the Cubs and their reasonable fans really expect of Theo within three years? 
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Realities of the time...... fine.  One reality of the time is that Theo tried to address the RF position prior to 2006 with WMP but that didn't work out.  So Theo could've traded Arroyo, a servicable starter, for an actual RF but I'm sure that bad trade is just another write off for you right?  Not that Arroyo could've helped the 2006 squad. Brian Giles was an option to sign for RF after 2005, Jose Guillen played 2007 on a 1 year deal for 5 million and hit 23 HR 99 RBI.  Mike Cameron was available after 2007 but Theo wanted to wait for Cameron to hit his prime before he signed him. There are always options.  Suggesting that Theo got backed into a corner and no choice but to dish out 70 million to a guy with a poor track record, that is pathetic.
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    See what I mean with some of you critics.

    Theo tried to go young by trading for a prospect (Pena), but that didn't work out. So you rip him. So he goes for an estabished veteran, which means higher-priced, in Drew, who produced at the same level (and higher) as the previoius RF for his first four years, and you rip him.

    (Hmm ... see a pattern).

    For the record, I've posted numerous times that I never liked the Arroyo trade. You have trouble with your own arguments so don't try to put words in my mouth.

    Beyond that, this post again shows a lack of remembering of why Arroyo was traded. Theo thought the Sox had enough starting pitcher, that's why he used Arroyo in the trade, so it's pretty dumb to say now he should have traded Arroyo for another starter. If the Sox thought they needed a starter, they would have kept Arroyo. But like I said -- I thought it was a mistake to trade Arroyo, even if Pena panned out. I never like trading starting pitching.

    Giles was an option? Really.
     
    In 2005, Nixon was 31 and was coming off a decent year 13 HR 67 RBI, .275 BA in 124 G. Yes, he was showing some brittleness, but he was under contract for one more year at $7.5 million. So why would they be in the market for Giles who was four years older and who signed with the Padres for nearly $10 million a year.

    And if Giles became a free agent after 2006 instead, you really think he was a better option at $10 million a year at age 36. Please -- that would have been the exact type of deal you'd be ripping Theo for.

    Cameron wasn't a free agent until after 2007. You know, just throwing out names doesn't mean they were viable alternatives. That's the definition of pathetic.

    As for Guilen, he was coming off an injury in 2006 and isn't very good defensively. From a baseball standpoint, Drew was considered the better signing that offseason.

    Poor track record?

    Yes Drew was injured in 2006 but in 2005 he played 145 games with 31 HR, 93 RBI and .305 BA and in 2006 he played 140 games with 20 HR, 100 RBIs, .283 BA. And he played great defense. That's why all reports that offseason pegged him at getting around $14 million a year.

    I never said Theo was backed into a corner. The Sox needed a RF that offseason and Drew was the best player available and paid him the market rate. Yeah you're right -- any GM who does that must be a horrible GM.
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Well, then, to some extent, you agree with me.  But it goes back to: what do the Cubs and their reasonable fans really expect of Theo within three years? 
    Posted by Sheriff-Rojas[/QUOTE]

    Well, Theo has been the GM of a 3rd place team for 2 years and a that has gotten progressively worse for the last 4 years but many still think he has been an elite GM during that time.  So I don't know how you judge success either.

    I'd say with a team with the Cubs resources Theo gets a pass in 2012 and that is it.  With his salary and alledged pedigree, any expectations in 2013 and beyond are fair.
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    Thanks Theo for all you have done. Thanks for the World Series you will always be remembered for that.
    Theo is ready to leave as he wants more control and can't with Lucchino being there and he is not leaving at any time.
    To get this Theo trade over to the Cubs how about this. The name of Trey McNutt from the Cubs has been talked about and it sounds like its close. Why not The Red Sox trade Lars Anderson as he has not hope of playing 1st base and is probably close to being a 6 year free agent. So trade Theo and Lars for Trey and then the Sox can work on there free agents and finding a right fielder and another starting pitcher.
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Actually we don't know how well he left the farm system. (Rankings by Baseball America don't mean a thing). That can't be determined for a couple of years. First, it's idiotic to to expect a farm system to be consistently deep. Evaluating talent isn't a science. All farm systems have their ups and downs. Even if it is thin, you're ignoring all the years it was producing a key player or two every year and providing prospects for trades. Second, like I said, we don't know how strong it is. If Lavarnway contributes next year and Weiland emerges (as a starter or key reliever), Middleton, Ranaudo and Kalish the year after (or Kalish next year), then Bentz or even Westmoreland the year after, would you still say he left it weak? (And I didn't even mention some other prospects that are considered strong prospects). Plus, had Theo not traded Kelly, Fuentes and Rizzo, the system would have looked stronger, but would that have been the right call? This goes back to the damned if you do and damned if you don't in regard to prospects. He trades them for a player like Adrian Gonzalez so now the farm systen is thin one year removed from that. He doesn't make the trade and he's overvaluing the prospects. And simply looking at W-L records shows no depth in thinking. Last year, the Sox had an unprecedented number of injuries. No team can withstand losing 2/3 of the starting OF for most of the year, an All-Star second baseman for half a year and an All-Star first baseman for two months, along with the injuries on the pitching staff. You can't put that on Theo. Sometimes sht happens. And this year, he assembled enough talent to build a team that won on a 100-win pace for five months. FIVE MONTHS, not just two or three. The collapse in September had less to do with the talent he acquired and more to do with other issues. Yes, Crawford underachieved as did Lackey and the pitching had other issues. But all those issues were prevelent the first five months. Had Bard, Papelbon, Beckett and Lester just continued to produce like that had all year -- nothing more -- the Sox would have cruised to the playoffs.  And to say the Sox failed to maintain "our focus" again ignores the realities of the real world. No team can have a consistent straight line at the top, not even the Yankees. You chart a team's success year to year and there are going to be ups and downs. Just because he's leaving when the curve is near the low part doesn't mean you ignore the other years. By the standard you're using to judge Theo as average, it's impossible for any GM who is in charge for longer than three or four years to be judged any higher.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    Maybe it should be put another way Roy because we seem to have hit a wall of sort but I do understand and agree to a point.  Theo took over a team in 02 that was well established and winning 94 to 96 games without a very strong farm.  We one a WS in 04 which was partly Theo's contribution "I agree" he made a great trade to get rid of the dead weight to bring in fresh energy.  Then we won again in 07, with 08 being another great year.  Theo has also done a good job keeping our farm well stocked enough to either trade a player or place in the lineup and stay competitive.

    Here is where my issues come into play and feel it negates much of the good times/moves Theo made.
      After our 08 season I feel we have declined.  That's by record and performance I am judging this on.  You bring up injuries?  Very puzzling the past two years considering all the recent statements.  Again today, there was another statement came out that has the players also drinking beer in the dugout now.  We pay good money to watch our team play, do you feel the players should be allowed to do anything but play hard for their money?  If you look at the drinking, more injuries, less wins, bad signings, out of condition players and Theo's inability to let go of dead weight "like with Nomar" this has been an embarrassing development.

    Do you agree or disagree roy?
      Shouldn't this also count as part of Theo's overall performance as a GM along along with Tito as manager?  I understand we can't win every year but are you any bit dissapointed to be a Sox fan at the moment?  I feel robbed and think our management failed us big time.  I think it was "moon" that called me out after I used the word "complacent" when describing our team and managements credibility, but this is a public embarrassment to the game and our fans.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : See what I mean with some of you critics. Theo tried to go young by trading for a prospect (Pena), but that didn't work out. So you rip him. So he goes for an estabished veteran, which means higher-priced, in Drew, who produced at the same level (and higher) as the previoius RF for his first four years, and you rip him. (Hmm ... see a pattern). For the record, I've posted numerous times that I never liked the Arroyo trade. You have trouble with your own arguments so don't try to put words in my mouth. Beyond that, this post again shows a lack of remembering of why Arroyo was traded. Theo thought the Sox had enough starting pitcher, that's why he used Arroyo in the trade, so it's pretty dumb to say now he should have traded Arroyo for another starter. If the Sox thought they needed a starter, they would have kept Arroyo. But like I said -- I thought it was a mistake to trade Arroyo, even if Pena panned out. I never like trading starting pitching. Giles was an option? Really.   In 2005, Nixon was 31 and was coming off a decent year 13 HR 67 RBI, .275 BA in 124 G. Yes, he was showing some brittleness, but he was under contract for one more year at $7.5 million. So why would they be in the market for Giles who was four years older and who signed with the Padres for nearly $10 million a year. And if Giles became a free agent after 2006 instead, you really think he was a better option at $10 million a year at age 36. Please -- that would have been the exact type of deal you'd be ripping Theo for. Cameron wasn't a free agent until after 2007. You know, just throwing out names doesn't mean they were viable alternatives. That's the definition of pathetic. As for Guilen, he was coming off an injury in 2006 and isn't very good defensively. From a baseball standpoint, Drew was considered the better signing that offseason. Poor track record? Yes Drew was injured in 2006 but in 2005 he played 145 games with 31 HR, 93 RBI and .305 BA and in 2006 he played 140 games with 20 HR, 100 RBIs, .283 BA. And he played great defense. That's why all reports that offseason pegged him at getting around $14 million a year. I never said Theo was backed into a corner. The Sox needed a RF that offseason and Drew was the best player available and paid him the market rate. Yeah you're right -- any GM who does that must be a horrible GM.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]


    Once again a super post Roy. It is a shame that most posters here don't read or are able to understand your posts. You are like the tennis player who is so far above his competition that he has to relocate in order to compete with equal talent. Your intellect, preparedness, and research, are really wasted here. This forum is minor league level A and you belong in the Major Leagues. It gets worse here every day and the Boston media, WEEI, Felger, Trolls, have put a lid onto the BDC coffin. Don't come here if you want to see a microcasm of RSN.
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    Roy, you are truly hilarious.  Don't join the debate team. 

    Theo botched the WMP trade and really, so don't be self important to think I would know your stance on the Arroyo trade, I haven't read your memoirs yet.  The point is, if he is going to trade a starting pitcher, wouldn't a capable GM have gotten a servicable player in return?  Of course I rip him for that and rightfully so.  I'm not in the justification and rationalization business as you are.

    "Theo thought the Red Sox had enough starting pitching".... Classic!  He is the GM, he was wrong and 2006 was a disaster for the pitching staff.  The staff that he assembled, but not his fault right.

    The point on Guillen, Giles, and Cameron is that there were and always are options, cheaper options who offered similar if not better production.  But, sure just dismiss them.  And if you really want to play the "best available" card, I offer your horrible logic John Lackey and Bobby Jenks. 

    Can you please give me your Lugo defense next?
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    All of this debate would be unnecessary if both sides could agree on a figure that they think would be reasonable success rate for a GM. Theo said that he would be happy to be 55% right. So why argue forever on his being 45% vwrong? Am I missing something here or am I interrupting a pizzin contesy party over Theo. The mistakes that Theo made have been accepted here by his supporters many times. What do you bashers want beyond that?

     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]All of this debate would be unnecessary if both sides could agree on a figure that they think would be reasonable success rate for a GM. Theo said that he would be happy to be 55% right. So why argue forever on his being 45% vwrong? Am I missing something here or am I interrupting a pizzin contesy party over Theo. The mistakes that Theo made have been accepted here by his supporters many times. What do you bashers want beyond that?
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

    55% of what?  Dollars?  Players?  I'd say a roster with 45% mistakes, 11/12 players, is a problem.  I'd say a payroll with 45% mistakes, what about 80 million this year, is a pretty big problem. 

    Good to know Theo set the bar so high for himself.  Hey Roy, that is sarcasm.
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]All of this debate would be unnecessary if both sides could agree on a figure that they think would be reasonable success rate for a GM. Theo said that he would be happy to be 55% right. So why argue forever on his being 45% vwrong? Am I missing something here or am I interrupting a pizzin contesy party over Theo. The mistakes that Theo made have been accepted here by his supporters many times. What do you bashers want beyond that?
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

    How does this thread, or any for that matter benefit from fans like you?  Some of us seem to be having a pretty good debate, why are you here if it disturbs you?
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Maybe it should be put another way Roy because we seem to have hit a wall of sort but I do understand and agree to a point.   Theo took over a team in 02 that was well established and winning 94 to 96 games without a very strong farm.  We one a WS in 04 which was partly Theo's contribution "I agree" he made a great trade to get rid of the dead weight to bring in fresh energy.  Then we won again in 07, with 08 being another great year.  Theo has also done a good job keeping our farm well stocked enough to either trade a player or place in the lineup and stay competitive. Here is where my issues come into play and feel it negates much of the good times/moves Theo made.   After our 08 season I feel we have declined.  That's by record and performance I am judging this on.  You bring up injuries?  Very puzzling the past two years considering all the recent statements.  Again today, there was another statement came out that has the players also drinking beer in the dugout now.   We pay good money to watch our team play, do you feel the players should be allowed to do anything but play hard for their money?  If you look at the drinking, more injuries, less wins, bad signings, out of condition players and Theo's inability to let go of dead weight "like with Nomar" this has been an embarrassing development. Do you agree or disagree roy?   Shouldn't this also count as part of Theo's overall performance as a GM along along with Tito as manager?  I understand we can't win every year but are you any bit dissapointed to be a Sox fan at the moment?  I feel robbed and think our management failed us big time.  I think it was "moon" that called me out after I used the word "complacent" when describing our team and managements credibility, but this is a public embarrassment to the game and our fans.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    OK, you say the Sox declined after the '08 season. In 2009, the Sox won 95 (from '07 to '09) the Sox won 96-95-95. That's hardly a decline. The Sox made the playoffs and lost in the first round, losing the deciding game when an All-Star closer blew the game. When the previous two seasons were winning W.S. and losing game 7 of the ALCS, that's a pretty high standard you're expecting the team to maintain.

    Since then -- I give the team a pass for 2010. The injuries had nothing to do with all the extra-cirricular activity that we're hearing about now. So at that point, what dead weight did you expect him to jettison?

    If you said Beckett for 2010, well look what happened. He actually did work in the offseason to get in better shape for the season and came back and for five months was a great pitcher. After five months, the Sox had the best record in the A.L. (or second-best, I forget) and was on pace to win 100 games. So if there were things that he saw then that he didn't like, I'm not expecting him to blow it up at that point..

    Let's say Theo saw everything that was going on, can you imagine the uproar that would have erupted if he traded Lester and Beckett in August? The result we all want is winning so where the Sox were on Aug. 31, it's understandable if the severity of the situation wasn't appreciated. Even if it was, the team was kicking butt at the time, so it wasn't the time to make changes. It's something you address in the offseason.

    I think you're judging the situation before Theo had the chance to correct what happened in September. No one likes what happened in September. It was the players who failed us, not management. It's fully understandable in this situation, that by the time managament did realize how bad the situation hadbecome, it was too late to immediately address it. And I also can understand if management doesn't know the severity of the situation at the time. GMs and owners shouldn't be hanging out in the clubhouse.

    Depending on what happens going forward will be the time to decide whether or not management has failed us.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : 55% of what?  Dollars?  Players?  I'd say a roster with 45% mistakes, 11/12 players, is a problem.  I'd say a payroll with 45% mistakes, what about 80 million this year, is a pretty big problem.  Good to know Theo set the bar so high for himself.  Hey Roy, that is sarcasm.
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    I believe that he was speaking of FA signings in hindsight. You or I can be close to 100% in hindsight but a GM has to be right at the moment of a signing. Many on this forum have never or ever will be able to grasp that concept. I get tired of repeating it over and over again. His trades have been much better and his drafting ( for lower picks) and farm system development have been excellent. If you followed his press conferences for years then you would have known the answer to your question.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : How does this thread, or any for that matter benefit from fans like you?   Some of us seem to be having a pretty good debate, why are you here if it disturbs you?
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    thanks for saying this craze
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : I believe that he was speaking of FA signings in hindsight. You or I can be close to 100% in hindsight but a GM has to be right at the moment of a signing. Many on this forum have never or ever will be able to grasp that concept. I get tired of repeating it over and over again. His trades have been much better and his drafting ( for lower picks) and farm system development have been excellent. If you followed his press conferences for years then you would have known the answer to your question.
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

    Okay FA signings. Players in first FA contract.

    2011 roster misses- Lackey, Crawford, Drew, Jenks, Cameron. 53 million

    2011 roster hits- Scutaro, Aceves.  5.5 million

    Dice K probably would have been a miss like he was in 09/10 but he was hurt, Wheeler gets an incomplete too.  Aside from Miller, who I think is also a push I can't think of any other guys who were FA signings that played any real role in 2011.  I don't think that is a 55% success rate. 
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : OK, you say the Sox declined after the '08 season. In 2009, the Sox won 95 (from '07 to '09) the Sox won 96-95-95. That's hardly a decline. The Sox made the playoffs and lost in the first round, losing the deciding game when an All-Star closer blew the game. When the previous two seasons were winning W.S. and losing game 7 of the ALCS, that's a pretty high standard you're expecting the team to maintain. Since then -- I give the team a pass for 2010. The injuries had nothing to do with all the extra-cirricular activity that we're hearing about now. So at that point, what dead weight did you expect him to jettison? If you said Beckett for 2010, well look what happened. He actually did work in the offseason to get in better shape for the season and came back and for five months was a great pitcher. After five months, the Sox had the best record in the A.L. (or second-best, I forget) and was on pace to win 100 games. So if there were things that he saw then that he didn't like, I'm not expecting him to blow it up at that point.. Let's say Theo saw everything that was going on, can you imagine the uproar that would have erupted if he traded Lester and Beckett in August? The result we all want is winning so where the Sox were on Aug. 31, it's understandable if the severity of the situation wasn't appreciated. Even if it was, the team was kicking butt at the time, so it wasn't the time to make changes. It's something you address in the offseason. I think you're judging the situation before Theo had the chance to correct what happened in September. No one likes what happened in September. It was the players who failed us, not management. It's fully understandable in this situation, that by the time managament did realize how bad the situation hadbecome, it was too late to immediately address it. And I also can understand if management doesn't know the severity of the situation at the time. GMs and owners shouldn't be hanging out in the clubhouse. Depending on what happens going forward will be the time to decide whether or not management has failed us.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    roy, I guess we just disagree on a few issues "no problem" but when I learn my favorite team has publicly disgraced the game and possibly cheated our fans of their best effort the past two or three years, its definitely time to dump our management team. 

    I'm not sure what's worse, beefing up on PEDS to gain a winning edge, or just dogging it because your drinking beer during the game and getting fat.  If Varitek tries to smooth things over by apologizing will be even worse.  As captain he had his chance to take charge long before now.  Its obvious to everyone his buddy Josh has had a drinking problem since his days with the Marlins.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]Roy, you are truly hilarious.  Don't join the debate team.  Theo botched the WMP trade and really, so don't be self important to think I would know your stance on the Arroyo trade, I haven't read your memoirs yet.  The point is, if he is going to trade a starting pitcher, wouldn't a capable GM have gotten a servicable player in return?  Of course I rip him for that and rightfully so.  I'm not in the justification and rationalization business as you are. "Theo thought the Red Sox had enough starting pitching".... Classic!  He is the GM, he was wrong and 2006 was a disaster for the pitching staff.  The staff that he assembled, but not his fault right. The point on Guillen, Giles, and Cameron is that there were and always are options, cheaper options who offered similar if not better production.  But, sure just dismiss them.  And if you really want to play the "best available" card, I offer your horrible logic John Lackey and Bobby Jenks.  Can you please give me your Lugo defense next?
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    What part of the Arroyo-for-Pena deal was a bad deal didn't you understand. Do I need to type slower. Or perhaps reading comprehension just isn't a strong point. Hey, that's OK. Don't sweat it. 

    But a GM makes a trade that doesn't work. I'm shocked -- SHOCKED I tell you.

    Yes 2006 was a down year. And what happened? He addressed those needs and the Sox won it all in 2007 -- just another little tidbit I guess you didn't notice.

    And no matter how many times you write their names, Cameron and Giles weren't available in the 2006-07 offseason. I know facts are something you choose to ignore, so I'll forgive you. (Hey, are you a politician? They like to do that -- repeat the same fiction over and over again regardless of whether or not it was true.)

    What about Lackey and Jenks? I didn't like the Lackey signing because of the length and money. I thought Jenks was a decent signing to add depth to the bullpen. For this year, I was wrong. Gee -- I guess I should slit my wrists over that one.

    And as for Lugo -- if you're going to make a big deal about not having read my posts then why throw out accusations? Oh I know. Because you know the rest of your arguments are thin so you try to distort the issue.

    For the record, I never liked the Lugo signing. I've posted before that I thought the two worst signings Theo made were Lugo and Crawford.
     

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