The real story of Theo Epstien

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : roy, I guess we just disagree on a few issues "no problem" but when I learn my favorite team puplically discraces the game and possibly cheated our fans of their best effort the past two or three years, its definitely time to dump our management team.  I'm not sure what's worse, beefing up on PEDS to gain a winning edge, or just dogging it because your drinking beer during the game and getting fat.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    How do you make that leap -- that the team disgraced the game and cheated the fans the past two or three years. Just because they didn't make the playoffs? See, this is where you lose me.

    You didn't answer my question about what dead weight you thought should have been dumped after 2010? 

    Like I said -- the test for the management team is now. Regardless of what they knew and when they knew it, it's understanable that they didn't appreciate the severity. I personally wanted Theo back because overall, I think he's a good GM and because he needs to clean up the mess.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : What part of the Arroyo-for-Pena deal was a bad deal didn't you understand. Do I need to type slower. Or perhaps reading comprehension just isn't a strong point. Hey, that's OK. Don't sweat it.  But a GM makes a trade that doesn't work. I'm shocked -- SHOCKED I tell you. Yes 2006 was a down year. And what happened? He addressed those needs and the Sox won it all in 2007 -- just another little tidbit I guess you didn't notice. And no matter how many times you write their names, Cameron and Giles weren't available in the 2006-07 offseason. I know facts are something you choose to ignore, so I'll forgive you. (Hey, are you a politician? They like to do that -- repeat the same fiction over and over again regardless of whether or not it was true.) What about Lackey and Jenks? I didn't like the Lackey signing because of the length and money. I thought Jenks was a decent signing to add depth to the bullpen. For this year, I was wrong. Gee -- I guess I should slit my wrists over that one. And as for Lugo -- if you're going to make a big deal about not having read my posts then why throw out accusations? Oh I know. Because you know the rest of your arguments are thin so you try to distort the issue. For the record, I never liked the Lugo signing. I've posted before that I thought the two worst signings Theo made were Lugo and Crawford.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    No, I get that you didn't like the Arroyo deal, I stated that clearly, you just don't read well. 

    Don't like the Lugo, Lackey or Crawford deals either? I'm starting to think you are just a glutton for punishment. That is 240 million in payroll right there that you don't like. But my argument is thin, right.  (Sarcasm)  I just assumed you liked Lugo and Lackey and Jenks and Cameron, because if you thought they were all horrible too, than you'd have to be a total moron to still advocate for Theo.

    Re:  Giles and Cameron.   You asked for other solutions I threw out these 2, along with Guillen, along with aquiring someone of value for Arroyo.  Giles was available in 2006, Guillen in 06 and 07 and Cameron in 07.  These are simply a few of what are countless options, you are the one stuck on them, not me.

    You can make generalized statements about me not reading your posts or not knowing what facts are but the reality is your entire argument is dependent on circumventing facts and using only the facts you find conventient.  I think you are the one about ready for the Replican nomination.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : How do you make that leap -- that the team disgraced the game and cheated the fans the past two or three years. Just because they didn't make the playoffs? See, this is where you lose me. You didn't answer my question about what dead weight you thought should have been dumped after 2010?  Like I said -- the test for the management team is now. Regardless of what they knew and when they knew it, it's understanable that they didn't appreciate the severity. I personally wanted Theo back because overall, I think he's a good GM and because he needs to clean up the mess.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    It's the Internet and we will never be certain that Craze4Sox really works at NESN and is a Red Sox fan. The bottom line for me is that he reads, thinks, and acts like a Yankee troll. So he got a job in Boston but is still a Yankee fan. Let all of his posts sink into your head and then place him onto ignore. We don't need trolls. Life is tough enough without them. Babe petered out, so might he.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : How do you make that leap -- that the team disgraced the game and cheated the fans the past two or three years. Just because they didn't make the playoffs? See, this is where you lose me. You didn't answer my question about what dead weight you thought should have been dumped after 2010?  Like I said -- the test for the management team is now. Regardless of what they knew and when they knew it, it's understanable that they didn't appreciate the severity. I personally wanted Theo back because overall, I think he's a good GM and because he needs to clean up the mess.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    roy,

    Are you overlooking everything that has taken place and excusing it as just part of the game?
      Our team drinking and not taking conditioning seriously isn't a disgrace or slap in the face to our fans?  Theo and Tito allowing it?  Our captain doing/saying nothing, even though his buddy "Josh" is right in the middle of the problem isn't a disgrace?

    Just a few things to address your question. 
    Tek was done as a starter from 08 to present.  Guys like Timlin and Tavarez were kept so long they hurt us more than helped.  Wake should have retired after last season.  McDon killed us all year before a change was made.  Drew should have been benched two years ago and a better RHH OF brought in to help.   Most of these moves were made out of loyalty, not in the best interest of our team.   They were just all positions overlooked without ever really making a strong effort to replace or help out.  If they were it was mostly with more dead weight.

    Man lets just stop here, have a good night got to run for now.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    Read Lester's comments on pitcher's conditioning. Whomever you decide to believe will be contingent on your agenda in the forum.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    Is it true that the Cubs have printed out this entire OP, handed it to Lucchino and demaded Ellsbury and $6M in cash to take Epstein off of the RS hands?
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    "history will tell us that Blunder was perhaps one of the most incompetent GMs in the history of the league"

    One of the dumber statements in the history of this forum. 

    You think history will remember that Montana had some rough years in KC or Belichick in Cleveland? Nope. History will remember Theo's two rings here and he'll be credited for ending the drought. You are confusing what you will tell to your own grandkids with the collective written history that gets shared more broadly. Yes, local nutjobs will rant on about Duquette being the true GM for 2004 or how Theo gets no credit for 2007 because of a Gorilla suit, but that won't make it into the mainstream history. That's not how it works. In fact, if Theo goes on to get a ring with the Cubs he's off to the hall of fame and that's how he will be remembered, not for his flaws. 

    Now, having said that I happen to think Theo had a ton of flaws as a GM, some of which were covered up by his big market budget safety net. A more nuanced view would hold Theo responsible for how messed up this season was as well. And that's how I feel. But just as I blame him for this year I give him credit for the rings. 

    But this isn't about what I think, it's about how history will perceive him. By and large he'll get high marks, though what he does at the Cubs will impact his story as well.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Always nice to hear you're anger harness. 
    First off everyone knows I never said that about moon. 
    Let them speak for himself because he won't mangle the original statement like you. 

    Now you speak for everyone. See, the thing about lying is remembering UR lies. Moon will tell you straight and true you accused him of erasing his posts on UR thread. Do you wish him to expose you? Or shall I?


    All I stated was people who live around Fenway and the Boston area would obviously know and get more "first hand news" on the Sox. 

    No, they don't obviously know more or get news first. Anybody from 3000 miles away can get the news just as fast. We don't live in the horse and buggy days anymore...sad to say.

    You tried to convince the board "living in Seattle" that Lackeys struggles were in most part due to climate/venue.  I used Becketts success as an example coming from a similar climate to Boston as an example and you disappeared into your lonely angry world. 

    Where I live has no bearing on climate affect. Try paying attention. Ask any hitter or pitcher about how climate affects balls in flight. Did you ever actually suit up?


    As far as Timlin, Theo kept him and guys like Tavarez here long after any good they had done "much like Wake and Tek" so squash that statement even though he had some good impact.  Foulke also bombed out on his contract "another bust" due to injury after some positive impact. 

    Foulke - in the year he was signed: 2.17 ERA  0.940 WHIP.
    Oh yeah, he bombed alright.


    I already mentioned David and Scill being good moves and as far as the others they were some of the other "short term" good moves I suggested may have been made along with Scuter. Harness, why do you feel the need to use moons name for things I never said.  

    Ummmm, because you said it. If you can't own up to UR lies, improve UR memory.


    Ever since I mentioned working for NESN and the Sox indirectly in the past you have been on a tantrum calling me a liar.  As for katz, or whoever you said suggested Theo will have the Cubs in the playoffs within three years may be right or wrong, I missed that statement.  They had a great team in 08 so anything is possible.  The one bet I will make is Theo fails "in general" to bring the Cubs up to an elite status even after five years.  In other words putting them in a position to win a championship. 

    "Elite status" is relative. Phillies were in elite status. They are at home watching the WS. Being in a position to win a championship means making the playoffs. Get it?

    I don't run and hide when called out on an issue like you harness, nor to I try and degrade fellow fans with verbal abuse.  If you can't handle the furnace jump out because you act like a kid.  Are you that self proclaimed "Super Hero" Dude" running around Seattle fighting crime thats been on the news?  If so the only crime here is you so move on.
    Posted by craze4sox


    When UR jealous bone rises, you suddenly call others on the board "experts". Fact is, you aren't that bright, and mix that with an inferiority complex and a propensity to lie, it makes you...you.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : No, I get that you didn't like the Arroyo deal, I stated that clearly, you just don't read well.  Don't like the Lugo, Lackey or Crawford deals either? I'm starting to think you are just a glutton for punishment. That is 240 million in payroll right there that you don't like. But my argument is thin, right.  (Sarcasm)  I just assumed you liked Lugo and Lackey and Jenks and Cameron, because if you thought they were all horrible too, than you'd have to be a total moron to still advocate for Theo. Re:  Giles and Cameron.   You asked for other solutions I threw out these 2, along with Guillen, along with aquiring someone of value for Arroyo.  Giles was available in 2006, Guillen in 06 and 07 and Cameron in 07.  These are simply a few of what are countless options, you are the one stuck on them, not me. You can make generalized statements about me not reading your posts or not knowing what facts are but the reality is your entire argument is dependent on circumventing facts and using only the facts you find conventient.  I think you are the one about ready for the Replican nomination.
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]
    Didn't know there was a third party. What's a Replican?

    Who is making generalized statements. You're the one who is making wild accusations and comments without any facts to back them up? I would ask you how I am circumventing facts, but since you wouldn't know a fact if it bit you in the azz, it would just be a waste of time.

    And I'm not stuck with any of those players. Just because you mention names, doesn't mean they were viable options or available as I pointed out, so no, there weren't numerous options. 

    Since you obviously don't like facts, I'll just leave you with this. You said Giles was availabe in 2006. Are talking before or after the 2006 season? But it really doesn't matter.

    The Sox were not in the market for a RF for the 2006 season. They were happy with Nixon, who was in the last year of his contract and were not looking to replace him with a higher-priced older player. They were not looking for a RF until after 2006, and by then, Giles was already locked up with a three-year deal with San Diego. And even if Giles was available, it's not a given that he would have wanted to go to Boston.

    This is from 2008.



    © 2008 MLB Advanced Media, L.P. All rights reserved.
    PrintPrint

    08/08/08 8:39 PM ET

    No deal: Giles remains with Padres

    Red Sox can't land veteran outfielder as deadline passes

    DENVER -- Brian Giles sounded more miffed than relieved Friday when he arrived in the visiting clubhouse at Coors Field, even though he vetoed a potential trade to the Red Sox.

    Giles was a little perturbed that his waiver claim -- usually an anonymous process that the media isn't privy to -- was leaked publicly this week.

    "I didn't know everybody was supposed to know, especially when it wasn't a done deal and it wouldn't go down," Giles said.

    The deadline for the Padres and Red Sox to make a deal passed quietly Friday with Giles opting not to waive his limited no-trade clause, which included the Red Sox. He also had the Orioles, Tigers, Nationals, Rays, Brewers, Marlins and Pirates on the no-trade list.

    The Red Sox claimed Giles earlier in the week and the teams had hoped to swing a trade that would have sent the veteran right fielder to the American League. He refused.

    Giles wouldn't go into details about what went into his decision to remain in San Diego, though family factors -- he has two young daughters -- were a consideration.

    "It's kind of between myself and my agent, and Boston and the Padres," Giles said. "I don't think really anything needs to be said other than I made a commitment to play for this team for three or four years, and at the end, that's where I still stand."

    By trading Giles to the Red Sox, the Padres could have saved between $2.75 million and $6 million on his contact.

    So the 37-year-old Giles, who joined the Padres in a trade from Pittsburgh in 2003, will remain a Padre, which is perfectly fine with him.

    "I signed a three-, possibly four-year deal here. I'm committed to fulfill that contract. If next year doesn't work out with the option, I'll be a free agent and I can choose where I go," said Giles, who grew up in the San Diego suburb of El Cajon.

    Giles, who is making $9 million this season, has a $9 million club option for 2009. General manager Kevin Towers has said that he would like to keep Giles next season.

    Giles, who is hitting .295 this season with six home runs with a .390 on-base percentage, was in the starting lineup Friday for the Padres' tilt vs. the Rockies at Coors Field. Giles sounded like he would like to finish his career in San Diego.

    "I don't know how many years I have left," Giles said. "I've had a good time here in San Diego. Like I've preached before, the same games we've been the last couple of years that we've won we haven't won any of those this year. Given our division and how young it is, it's going to be inconsistent for the next two or three years, so I feel there's an opportunity here.

    "I've had a couple of dings this year, but I've been able to take some days off. I know I have a few years left; hopefully it is with San Diego."

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : roy, I guess we just disagree on a few issues "no problem" but when I learn my favorite team has publicly disgraced the game and possibly cheated our fans of their best effort the past two or three years, its definitely time to dump our management team.  I'm not sure what's worse, beefing up on PEDS to gain a winning edge, or just dogging it because your drinking beer during the game and getting fat.  If Varitek tries to smooth things over by apologizing will be even worse.  As captain he had his chance to take charge long before now.  Its obvious to everyonehis buddy Josh has had a drinking problem since his days with the Marlins.
    Posted by craze4sox
    Again you speak for everyone. First you run from Rojas' post:

    Do you, or do you not, believe the Cubs will make the playoffs in the next three years with Theo as GM?  Let's see if you can just answer that question first, and if you believe that answer is no, would you willing to stake something tangible on it for both of us, be it mature or not?     

    Now, you say Josh had a drinking problem with the Marlins. My, UR such an "expert". Do tell us more. Enquiring minds want to know...
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    After a few weeks Harness will arrive at the conclusion that Craze is a troll.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    Epstein won two World Series while rebuilding the farm, but his critics will always argue over the minutiae.  “Bet he signed bad free agents!!”  To which my (always unanswered) question is: who didn’t?

    The stupidest criticism is that he took over a “championship team.”  The 2002 Red Sox were not only not reigning champions, they weren’t even in the 2002 post-season.  They finished 10.5 games out.  Did they have talented players? Absolutely, but it obviously takes more than having a rotisserie roster with a few All Stars to win it all.  Fans who make this obviously false statement refuse to acknowledge that other teams actually exist.  Why were the 2002 Red Sox considered to an easy given to win the next World Series title, but the Yankees were not?

    Most fans fall into the “Expectation” game when it comes to evaluating GM’s.  “He won, but anyone could with that payroll.”  Really?  Since he took over, he has won more World Series than other free-spenders such as the Yankees, Mets, Cubs, Tigers, White Sox, and Angels.  While he did outspend these teams most of the time, not one of these teams has ever had a rival $200mill payroll in their own division.   Fans think Andrew Friedman is the best GM ever, or is at least the newest name to get that honor.  Not to take anything away from the excellent job Friedman has done in Tampa, but aren’t we totally evaluating him against payroll?  He won 91 games last year with a payroll about 1/4 the size of Boston’s.  “Imagine what he could do in a large market payroll!”  OK, let’s imagine it.  Will he win 4 times as many games?  Obviously not.  Give him an extra $100mill and he might get 6 or 7 more wins.  Maybe.  Or, more likely, 1 or 2, given that most free agents are not as successful after deals as they are before.  What if Friedman did have a budget large enough to retain Crawford, and Crawford posted similar numbers in Tampa in 2011? Would Friedman still be a genius GM?  Or is his intelligence only based on what he can and cannot afford?

    The reality is payroll is a sucker’s game.  Payrolls across MLB span $40mill to $200mill, or a 400% increase over the minimum.  Wins usually span from about 60 to 98, or a 63% increase over the minimum.  Do you see the obvious?  That after a while, cost-effectiveness tapers off greatly?  Spending 400% more to get about 63% more  =  inefficient.  This is why payroll is such a ridiculously overblown issue in MLB, and why free agent spending is nothing more than a massive waste. For everyone, not just Epstein.  Get over it.  For those who always retort “ I don’t care if other teams sign free agent busts, I only care if Boston does,” the point lost on you is one of trying to establish a sense of perspective.  Stop using that ridiculous copout and open your eyes to reality and the benchmarks it provides.  Otherwise, you’ll be making the same complaints next month with different names, and (hopefully) wondering why nothing has changed.

    Breaking down the individual moves is always a sad exercise, mostly because it’s all abouts cherry-picking the bad ones and ignoring the good ones, writing them off as “obvious” or something.  And these so-called bad  moves step all over themselves.  Cabrera, for example, seems to be a still-recurring pipe dream.  Had the Sox kept Cabrera, they would have lost the draft pick that became Jacoby Ellsbury.  Had the Sox kept Pedro, they lose the draft pick that became Clay Buchholz.  Who honestly would have preferred a past with more Cabrera over a present and future with Ellsbury?  Who wants the little miles Pedro had left in 2005 and 2006 over the present and future of Buchholz?

    I’ve never seen any post on this board that called Epstein the best GM ever.  In fact, I’ve seen more that have called him the worst.  How long before the malcontents who only use hindsight and have particular obsessions with players not brought in turn similarly on Cherington for his blatant refusal to run the team their way?  It’s only a matter of time before those who think they can start reminding us that they think they can once again.  What’s the over/under for the first “Fire Cherington” thread?

     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    So many forum regulars take the trolls seriously and spend hours crafting logical, reasonable relplies to their nonsense. What a shame. The trolls win.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : roy, Are you overlooking everything that has taken place and excusing it as just part of the game?   Our team drinking and not taking conditioning seriously isn't a disgrace or slap in the face to our fans?  Theo and Tito allowing it?  Our captain doing/saying nothing, even though his buddy "Josh" is right in the middle of the problem isn't a disgrace? Just a few things to address your question.  Tek was done as a starter from 08 to present.  Guys like Timlin and Tavarez were kept so long they hurt us more than helped.  Wake should have retired after last season.  McDon killed us all year before a change was made.  Drew should have been benched two years ago and a better RHH OF brought in to help .   Most of these moves were made out of loyalty, not in the best interest of our team.   They were just all positions overlooked without ever really making a strong effort to replace or help out.  If they were it was mostly with more dead weight. Man lets just stop here, have a good night got to run for now.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    Have you been reading my posts? Who is overlooking what has taken place and who is excusing it. Please, show me where I ever said I was overlooking it or excusing it. 

    Look, the clubhouse obvously got away from Francona, which doesn't reflect very well on the players. As for Theo, it gets  more complicated. He's not in the clubhouse during games so it's very easy to understand that while it's going on, it's hard for management to grasp the extent of the problem. Especially because often times, the transition of an activity going from being no big deal to being a problem is often done in subtle increments that you don't realize it has become a problem until it really becomes a problem. For the Red Sox, that happened in September and there's not exactly a lot that can be done at that moment.

    Again answer this: If Theo knew exatly the extent of the problem at the end of August when the Sox had the best (or second-best) record in the American League, do you really expect Theo to blow up the team then? Isn't it a bit more realistic to expect them to try to get through the rest of the season and make any cahnges then? You keep avoiding these questions.

    As far as dead weight. First, I'm not sure what Timlin and Tavarez has to do with the last few years. And these type of the arguments are the height in hindsight second-guessing.

    For instance Timlin (since you brought him up). Everyone rips Theo and Francona for keeping/using Timlin so long in 2008. But the same people were ripping them in 2007 in June. And what happen? Timlin ends up being the top set-up guy from mid-June through the end of the season.

    Knowing when a player is done isn't a science. How many times are fans clamoring for a player to be dumped only to see that player bounce back and play great. You don't remember those players. You only remember the players that don't come back.

    And just because you don't value contributions of  a player, it doesn't mean that player doesn't have value. Take Tek -- you're not actually that blind to how hard it is to find adequate starting catching. You say he should have been gone after 2008. So all that happened is the Sox replaced him as the starter four months later. And you can't possibly have all this angst over a backup. Like I said -- take a look at catching around the majors. Just because you think Tek had no value as a backup, it doesn't mean that is the case.

    You say "McDonald killed us all year." This is exactly what I'm talking about. Let's play Jeopardy. Who was the Boston RESERVE outfielder who put up these numbers the last three months of the season -- 5 HRs, 21 RBIs 31-for-105 .295 BA and an OPS near .900?

    Honestly -- if Theo dumped McDonald at the end of June, do you really think it would have been that easy to find a fourth OF who was going to bat nearly .300 over the next three months.

    Drew had a history of going on that red-hot stretch which he did every year, so benching him in 2010 (I'm assuming you meant 2010 because in 2009, he batted ..279 with 24 HRs and a .914 OPS) wasn't exactly an easy call. As it was, as the season went on, he was replaced against lefties more and more. He never really that hot stretch in 2010 so what happened in 2011. It didn't take long for Drew to be put in a platoon situation.

    I can't believe you're hiding your point behind the "these players were kept out of loyalty" banner. Was Ortiz kept through the slow starts of 2009 and 2010 out of loyalty? Or was it because he had a strong history of producing so it was worth having patience. How did that work out?

    And how do you know They were just all positions overlooked without ever really making a strong effort to replace or help out. Were you in the room with Theo and others in the front office?
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]Epstein won two World Series while rebuilding the farm, but his critics will always argue over the minutiae.  “Bet he signed bad free agents!!”  To which my (always unanswered) question is: who didn’t? The stupidest criticism is that he took over a “championship team.”  The 2002 Red Sox were not only not reigning champions, they weren’t even in the 2002 post-season.  They finished 10.5 games out.  Did they have talented players? Absolutely, but it obviously takes more than having a rotisserie roster with a few All Stars to win it all.  Fans who make this obviously false statement refuse to acknowledge that other teams actually exist.  Why were the 2002 Red Sox considered to an easy given to win the next World Series title, but the Yankees were not? Most fans fall into the “Expectation” game when it comes to evaluating GM’s.  “He won, but anyone could with that payroll.”  Really?  Since he took over, he has won more World Series than other free-spenders such as the Yankees, Mets, Cubs, Tigers, White Sox, and Angels.  While he did outspend these teams most of the time, not one of these teams has ever had a rival $200mill payroll in their own division.   Fans think Andrew Friedman is the best GM ever, or is at least the newest name to get that honor.  Not to take anything away from the excellent job Friedman has done in Tampa, but aren’t we totally evaluating him against payroll?  He won 91 games last year with a payroll about 1/4 the size of Boston’s.  “Imagine what he could do in a large market payroll!”  OK, let’s imagine it.  Will he win 4 times as many games?  Obviously not.  Give him an extra $100mill and he might get 6 or 7 more wins.  Maybe.  Or, more likely, 1 or 2, given that most free agents are not as successful after deals as they are before.  What if Friedman did have a budget large enough to retain Crawford, and Crawford posted similar numbers in Tampa in 2011? Would Friedman still be a genius GM?  Or is his intelligence only based on what he can and cannot afford? The reality is payroll is a sucker’s game.  Payrolls across MLB span $40mill to $200mill, or a 400% increase over the minimum.  Wins usually span from about 60 to 98, or a 63% increase over the minimum.  Do you see the obvious?  That after a while, cost-effectiveness tapers off greatly?  Spending 400% more to get about 63% more  =  inefficient.  This is why payroll is such a ridiculously overblown issue in MLB, and why free agent spending is nothing more than a massive waste. For everyone, not just Epstein.  Get over it.  For those who always retort “ I don’t care if other teams sign free agent busts, I only care if Boston does,” the point lost on you is one of trying to establish a sense of perspective.  Stop using that ridiculous copout and open your eyes to reality and the benchmarks it provides.  Otherwise, you’ll be making the same complaints next month with different names, and (hopefully) wondering why nothing has changed. Breaking down the individual moves is always a sad exercise, mostly because it’s all abouts cherry-picking the bad ones and ignoring the good ones, writing them off as “obvious” or something.  And these so-called bad  moves step all over themselves.  Cabrera, for example, seems to be a still-recurring pipe dream.  Had the Sox kept Cabrera, they would have lost the draft pick that became Jacoby Ellsbury.  Had the Sox kept Pedro, they lose the draft pick that became Clay Buchholz.  Who honestly would have preferred a past with more Cabrera over a present and future with Ellsbury?  Who wants the little miles Pedro had left in 2005 and 2006 over the present and future of Buchholz? I’ve never seen any post on this board that called Epstein the best GM ever.  In fact, I’ve seen more that have called him the worst.  How long before the malcontents who only use hindsight and have particular obsessions with players not brought in turn similarly on Cherington for his blatant refusal to run the team their way?  It’s only a matter of time before those who think they can start reminding us that they think they can once again.  What’s the over/under for the first “Fire Cherington” thread?
    Posted by notin[/QUOTE]

    Excellent post. I wish I phrased some of my arguments like you did. Great job.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]So many forum regulars take the trolls seriously and spend hours crafting logical, reasonable relplies to their nonsense. What a shame. The trolls win.
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

    I craft these at work.  I write that one while I was performing some rhinoplasty...
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    Notin, that post was one of your finest moments. It's a shame it's wasted on this thread. Now, if you'll excuse me, I must expose the thread author once more:)
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien


    Posts: 1982
    First: 6/5/2011
    Last: 10/18/2011



    First off everyone knows I never said that about moon...
    Harness, why do you feel the need to use moons name for things I never said.  Let them speak for himself because he won't mangle the original statement like you.


    I'll let Moon speak for himself:


    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    posted at 10/18/2011 11:28 PM EDT
    Posts: 19884
    First: 9/27/2005
    Last: 10/19/2011
    He most certainly did accuse me of erasing several posts on his thread. He even repeated the claim several times. 

    Since then, I haven't had major issues with him, but it's still on my back burner.



    Then I asked him again to verify:
    "Did he or did he not accuse you of erasing UR posts on one of his threads?"

    Moon's answer:

    Yes, several times on his thread titled something similar to "game thread"



    Now, if you wish to call Moon or myself a liar, I'll find the posts in question, after we make a personal wager on it. And it won't be limited to cyberspace.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    So you think every team has signed bad free agents; at least to the tune that Theo did in terms of dollars and # of players?  While there are a handful of teams who have, the fact is that most teams have not, at least not over the past several years.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from jackyldo. Show jackyldo's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In 2010 we were a 90 win team  with a lot of injuries Pedey and Youk for 2 that kept us out of the playoffs.

    In 2011   they were crowned  World Series champs before the 1st game of the season and played  6 weeks of horrible baseball   (1st 2 and last 4) they won 89 games  -- It was time for a change.

    If Lackey pitched hurt    get him fixed  or trade him.
    If Beckett  called Lackey and Lester to the clubhouse in the 6th inning  for Bud Lite then sit him down explain he's making  $17 million   or maybe $500.000.00 per start and should act like a professional and at 31 years old be a team leader.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    Wow, how do you have a conversation with a 30 year old man who has 25 million dollars in the bank with another 50 million dollars due to him w/ in the next 36 months that he should start acting like a professional when he has always been a cocky, spoiled, arrogant kid????
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]Epstein won two World Series while rebuilding the farm, but his critics will always argue over the minutiae.  “Bet he signed bad free agents!!”  To which my (always unanswered) question is: who didn’t? The stupidest criticism is that he took over a “championship team.”  The 2002 Red Sox were not only not reigning champions, they weren’t even in the 2002 post-season.  They finished 10.5 games out.  Did they have talented players? Absolutely, but it obviously takes more than having a rotisserie roster with a few All Stars to win it all.  Fans who make this obviously false statement refuse to acknowledge that other teams actually exist.  Why were the 2002 Red Sox considered to an easy given to win the next World Series title, but the Yankees were not? Most fans fall into the “Expectation” game when it comes to evaluating GM’s.  “He won, but anyone could with that payroll.”  Really?  Since he took over, he has won more World Series than other free-spenders such as the Yankees, Mets, Cubs, Tigers, White Sox, and Angels.  While he did outspend these teams most of the time, not one of these teams has ever had a rival $200mill payroll in their own division.   Fans think Andrew Friedman is the best GM ever, or is at least the newest name to get that honor.  Not to take anything away from the excellent job Friedman has done in Tampa, but aren’t we totally evaluating him against payroll?  He won 91 games last year with a payroll about 1/4 the size of Boston’s.  “Imagine what he could do in a large market payroll!”  OK, let’s imagine it.  Will he win 4 times as many games?  Obviously not.  Give him an extra $100mill and he might get 6 or 7 more wins.  Maybe.  Or, more likely, 1 or 2, given that most free agents are not as successful after deals as they are before.  What if Friedman did have a budget large enough to retain Crawford, and Crawford posted similar numbers in Tampa in 2011? Would Friedman still be a genius GM?  Or is his intelligence only based on what he can and cannot afford? The reality is payroll is a sucker’s game.  Payrolls across MLB span $40mill to $200mill, or a 400% increase over the minimum.  Wins usually span from about 60 to 98, or a 63% increase over the minimum.  Do you see the obvious?  That after a while, cost-effectiveness tapers off greatly?  Spending 400% more to get about 63% more  =  inefficient.  This is why payroll is such a ridiculously overblown issue in MLB, and why free agent spending is nothing more than a massive waste. For everyone, not just Epstein.  Get over it.  For those who always retort “ I don’t care if other teams sign free agent busts, I only care if Boston does,” the point lost on you is one of trying to establish a sense of perspective.  Stop using that ridiculous copout and open your eyes to reality and the benchmarks it provides.  Otherwise, you’ll be making the same complaints next month with different names, and (hopefully) wondering why nothing has changed. Breaking down the individual moves is always a sad exercise, mostly because it’s all abouts cherry-picking the bad ones and ignoring the good ones, writing them off as “obvious” or something.  And these so-called bad  moves step all over themselves.  Cabrera, for example, seems to be a still-recurring pipe dream.  Had the Sox kept Cabrera, they would have lost the draft pick that became Jacoby Ellsbury.  Had the Sox kept Pedro, they lose the draft pick that became Clay Buchholz.  Who honestly would have preferred a past with more Cabrera over a present and future with Ellsbury?  Who wants the little miles Pedro had left in 2005 and 2006 over the present and future of Buchholz? I’ve never seen any post on this board that called Epstein the best GM ever.  In fact, I’ve seen more that have called him the worst.  How long before the malcontents who only use hindsight and have particular obsessions with players not brought in turn similarly on Cherington for his blatant refusal to run the team their way?  It’s only a matter of time before those who think they can start reminding us that they think they can once again.  What’s the over/under for the first “Fire Cherington” thread?
    Posted by notin[/QUOTE]

    Notin good post but I did acknowledge the good and the bad.  I just can't believe any true Sox fan wouldn't feel let down and completely embarrassed by this tream.  Even our captain wouldn't step forward to address the issues.  I also see the loyalists to Tek, Wake, Drew and Theo concentrate on only the good over the years so it goes both ways.  My issue is over on this thread, maybe our new management can regain control of the great system Theo left behind.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Harness nice try, but very bad copy and paste after writing your own response.  You must be the saddest person this board has ever seen.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    Craze, you did accuse me of erasing posts on a thread of yours I never even visited until you linked me with others as saying something I never said. The "cut and paste" was accurate.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Craze, you did accuse me of erasing posts on a thread of yours I never even visited until you linked me with others as saying something I never said. The "cut and paste" was accurate.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Ok moon, then I apologize.  With harness its a different story because the guy has questioned my job and integrity since the day I joined the board because he can't handle the truth.  This is quite bizarre coming from a guy with no patience/respect for ones spelling errors or statements he may not agree with, so his response is to verbally bash their credibility.




     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    harness is the king of meanie pants.
     

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