The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?

    I think Iggy's D can overshadow the offense deficit when compare to Scutaro, and remember, there is was no guarantee that the aging Scutaro was going to produce like he did in 2011.

    I also think Aviles is very comparable to Scutty, except he is younger and has a little more range. 

    Yes, it's a gamble, but the money saved by trading Scutty allowed us to sign Ross and still have $2M left over.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?

    In Response to Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?:
    I think Iggy's D can overshadow the offense deficit when compare to Scutaro, and remember, there is was no guarantee that the aging Scutaro was going to produce like he did in 2011. I also think Aviles is very comparable to Scutty, except he is younger and has a little more range.  Yes, it's a gamble, but the money saved by trading Scutty allowed us to sign Ross and still have $2M left over.
    Posted by moonslav59
    MRMOON ....... DAD & BILL-806 ARE WITH YOU ON THIS ONE.   BETWEEN THE 3 OF US, WE KNOW OUR BASEBALL !!!
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?

    For argument's sake, let's say the money saved by dealing Scutty got us Ross and Punto. The choice should then be looked at like this:

    Scutaro, Aviles & Iggy
    vs
    Aviles, Punto, Iggy,  & Ross

    The second choice seems clear to me.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?

    In Response to Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?:
    For argument's sake, let's say the money saved by dealing Scutty got us Ross and Punto. The choice should then be looked at like this: Scutaro, Aviles & Iggy vs Aviles, Punto, Iggy,  & Ross The second choice seems clear to me.
    Posted by moonslav59
    CLEAR, CRYSTAL CLEAR !!!!!    (JACK NICHOLSON IN A "FEW GOOD MEN" !!)
     
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    Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?

    IMO, If Iggy manages to hit even around .250 in ST, then he should get the chance to be the everyday starter for 2012 season.  I don't think Iggy has to produce offense.  If you look at our projected lineup, Sox have pretty much all the offense we need from 1-8.  Sox is offense oriented team.  If Iggy can save 2 or 3 runs with his glove, then I say give him the chance.  I think he will do fine offensively as well once he gets comfortable at the plate.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from charliedarling. Show charliedarling's posts

    Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?

    i think that iglesius will get a real good shot at the starting shortstop job.  his defense even with marginal offense will allow the sox to be much better defensively up the middle and also will allow punto and aviles to fill the very important reserve roles that they were both acquired to handle. 

    if either punto or aviles have to start regularly at short the sox will have to find another utility guy and add him to the payroll.

    seems like a good time to see what a truly younger farm hand can do.  lesser productive offensive teams have been able to slide by with a great fielding SS in the past.   isn't saving a run just as important as driving one in?
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from kebbe. Show kebbe's posts

    Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?

    If it ends up with Aviles and Punto,I believe it's a push with having Scutaro.All are ordinary defensively(though I think Aviles is a bit above the other two)and you'll likely get similar offensive production.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?

    Perhaps the Sox are all-systems go on Iggy, and thus the Scutaro move.

    I think, more likely, the Sox see it like I do:  Aviles is a decent fielder, with a potentially really good bat, given a regular job.  I think this guy has been bucking for a starter's role since his KC days.  His prime is wasting away.  Give the guy a shot.  In any case, he is a perfectly acceptable bridge to Iggy.  In any case, given Youk's need to take some days off, having Aviles/Punto is awesome.  When is the last time we had a utility infield rotation this good?? (please don't mention anything involving the word Lowrie:  love the kid, sad to see him go, but he was a liability in the field, the liability masked by the occasional web-gem feel-good play).
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?

    In Response to Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?:
    Perhaps the Sox are all-systems go on Iggy, and thus the Scutaro move. I think, more likely, the Sox see it like I do:  Aviles is a decent fielder, with a potentially really good bat, given a regular job.  I think this guy has been bucking for a starter's role since his KC days.  His prime is wasting away.  Give the guy a shot.  In any case, he is a perfectly acceptable bridge to Iggy.  In any case, given Youk's need to take some days off, having Aviles/Punto is awesome.  When is the last time we had a utility infield rotation this good?? (please don't mention anything involving the word Lowrie:  love the kid, sad to see him go, but he was a liability in the field, the liability masked by the occasional web-gem feel-good play).
    Posted by SpacemanEephus

    ...and how old was Scutty when he went from utility IF'er to starting SS?

    (Hint: the number starts with a 3 and ends with a 2.)

    What were Scutty's numbers in Oakland before he bacame the jay's regular SS?
    .262/.321/.387/.708

    What's Scutaro's career RF/9 at SS?
    4.19

    Mike turns 31 this spring.
    Mike's numbers:
    .288/.318/.419/.737
    Mike's career RF/9 at SS?
    4.51

    I know it is not all about numbers, but Scutty turns 37 this fall. He's battled injuries both years in Boston. 

    I'd rather have Iggy as our FT SS, but I'm pretty sure Aviles can do slightly better than Scutty would have done this year with us.


     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?

    In Response to Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?:
    In Response to Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto? : ...and how old was Scutty when he went from utility IF'er to starting SS? (Hint: the number starts with a 3 and ends with a 2.) What were Scutty's numbers in Oakland before he bacame the jay's regular SS? .262/.321/.387/.708 What's Scutaro's career RF/9 at SS? 4.19 Mike turns 31 this spring. Mike's numbers: .288/.318/.419/.737 Mike's career RF/9 at SS? 4.51 I know it is not all about numbers, but Scutty turns 37 this fall. He's battled injuries both years in Boston.  I'd rather have Iggy as our FT SS, but I'm pretty sure Aviles can do slightly better than Scutty would have done this year with us.
    Posted by moonslav59


    Yeah, I think Aviles could be a pleasant surprise.  Equal to Scutaro in any case (and i like Avile's nature, plays the game with fire energy, this may make up for Scutaro's old-school pro's-pro grinder make-up that will certainly be missed).  Just hope the money that came off the books by unloading Marco will still yield a legitimate starter this year in addition to Ross.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?

    In Response to Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?:
    In Response to Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto? : ...and how old was Scutty when he went from utility IF'er to starting SS? (Hint: the number starts with a 3 and ends with a 2.) What were Scutty's numbers in Oakland before he bacame the jay's regular SS? .262/.321/.387/.708 What's Scutaro's career RF/9 at SS? 4.19 Mike turns 31 this spring. Mike's numbers: .288/.318/.419/.737 Mike's career RF/9 at SS? 4.51 I know it is not all about numbers, but Scutty turns 37 this fall. He's battled injuries both years in Boston.  I'd rather have Iggy as our FT SS, but I'm pretty sure Aviles can do slightly better than Scutty would have done this year with us.
    Posted by moonslav59


    I fully understand the value of a great defensive SS, but unless Iggy can show some sort of ability at the plate, he'll be a liability in the long run. If you start him and figure you can pinch hit for him later in games, fine but the only reason you'd PH for him would be if it's a close game and in that case, you lose his glove late in a close game.

    For now, I think Aviles gives the Sox the better balance of offense and defense. Now if Iggy shows marked improvement in spring training, then fine, give him a shot. But for now, I'd target 2013 for Iggy. Give him another year in AAA to give him the chance of being a more complete ballplayer.

    There's more to gain by being patient with him. Why start him in Boston because of his glove when he's not ready with the bat? The last thing you want his to have to send him down in the middle of May when he's batting .150 and have him start over again.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?

    2/3 of Aviles time at SS came in 2008.  I don't know if I would pencil him in as a defensive upgrade, but he should provide at least what Scutaro gave offensively.  

    The idea of an Aviles / Punto platoon (as I think Cafardo reported) seems odd - Aviles is better against righties than Punto is, so why platoon?  It would seem like giving Aviles the starting job would be the smart move, making Punto the late-inning defensive replacement until Iglesias can fill this role, at which point Punto can be traded.

    If nothing is working out by the All-star break, Ronny Cedeno should be available.  Just saying.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?

    In Response to Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?:
    In Response to Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto? : ...and how old was Scutty when he went from utility IF'er to starting SS? (Hint: the number starts with a 3 and ends with a 2.) What were Scutty's numbers in Oakland before he bacame the jay's regular SS? .262/.321/.387/.708 What's Scutaro's career RF/9 at SS? 4.19 Mike turns 31 this spring. Mike's numbers: .288/.318/.419/.737 Mike's career RF/9 at SS? 4.51 I know it is not all about numbers, but Scutty turns 37 this fall. He's battled injuries both years in Boston.  I'd rather have Iggy as our FT SS, but I'm pretty sure Aviles can do slightly better than Scutty would have done this year with us.
    Posted by moonslav59

    I don't think most people here have any idea what Aviles has done with the bat over his career.  Like you say he doesn't have a lot of range but neither did Scut. I don't see Aviles as a drop off.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from fourrings. Show fourrings's posts

    Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?

    Aviles is not a shortstop, Punto is athletic enough but he's basically a little better than Nick Green and thats not good enough.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?

    I have to agree that I dont see a huge dropoff from Scutaro to Aviles....remember when Lowrie was hot last year, we basically thought we were done with Scuts, but then he came back and at 2nd half way better than his career numbers. That said, I still would like to give Iggy a shot....I am old school enought to think that defense up the middle is more important than 35 extra points in your SS and 9 hitter batting average.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?

    Aviles is not a shortstop...

    That's what they said about Scutty too.

    I don't think most people here have any idea what Aviles has done with the bat over his career.  Like you say he doesn't have a lot of range but neither did Scut. I don't see Aviles as a drop off.

    While Aviles doesn't have great range, he clearly has more than the 36 year old Scutaro.

    The idea of an Aviles / Punto platoon (as I think Cafardo reported) seems odd - Aviles is better against righties than Punto is, so why platoon?  It would seem like giving Aviles the starting job would be the smart move, making Punto the late-inning defensive replacement until Iglesias can fill this role, at which point Punto can be traded.

    Yes, this is how I see it happening, unless Iggy wins the job.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?

    I fully understand the value of a great defensive SS, but unless Iggy can show some sort of ability at the plate, he'll be a liability in the long run. 

    A very poor fielder is a liability in the long run as well.

    If you start him and figure you can pinch hit for him later in games, fine but the only reason you'd PH for him would be if it's a close game and in that case, you lose his glove late in a close game.

    Maybe he kept the game close with a diving play or a nifty DP turn. 

    Also, we'd still have Punto to bring in for D if needed after the PH'er.
     
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    Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?

    In Response to Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?:
    IMO, If Iggy manages to hit even around .250 in ST, then he should get the chance to be the everyday starter for 2012 season.  I don't think Iggy has to produce offense.  If you look at our projected lineup, Sox have pretty much all the offense we need from 1-8.  Sox is offense oriented team.  If Iggy can save 2 or 3 runs with his glove, then I say give him the chance.  I think he will do fine offensively as well once he gets comfortable at the plate.
    Posted by seannybboi


    Very good..... What was Ozzie Smiths lifetime average around 260? maybe?
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?

    We won't see it happen but MLBTR mentioned the Phils shopping Blanton, AGAIN.

    Interestingly enough Robert Andino's name came up. He has been playing 2 B for the O's but I remember seeing him play some SS. Perhaps Aviles is better but this kid has killed the Sox during the past year and he has a decent bat---worth looking at.

    Also Blanton might be worth looking at if they are shopping him again.
     
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    Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?

    In Response to Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?:
    I fully understand the value of a great defensive SS, but unless Iggy can show some sort of ability at the plate, he'll be a liability in the long run.  A very poor fielder is a liability in the long run as well. If you start him and figure you can pinch hit for him later in games, fine but the only reason you'd PH for him would be if it's a close game and in that case, you lose his glove late in a close game. Maybe he kept the game close with a diving play or a nifty DP turn.  Also, we'd still have Punto to bring in for D if needed after the PH'er.
    Posted by moonslav59


    1. A very poor fielder -- true. But Aviles is at worst an average fielder, not a very poor fielder, while right now, Iggy is a very bad hitter. If Iggy can become at least a poor hitter, he might be a better option.

    2. And maybe, a better hitter at SS would have had a clutch hit to drive in runs -- or kept an inning alive and it turned into a big inning -- so the game wasn't close. We can play the maybe game all night long. And sure, the Sox have Punto to bring in for D but do they want to have to use three players to get through one position in all the close games.

    Don't ignore my point. I have no problem with losing some offense for a great glove at SS. But unless Iggy shows something in the spring, he hasn't yet shown he has enough of a bat to provide the right mix. Again, there's no need to rush the kid -- especially  when you consider that playing SS at Fenway can be a challenge for even experienced SS with a decent glove.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?

    1. A very poor fielder -- true. But Aviles is at worst an average fielder, not a very poor fielder, while right now, Iggy is a very bad hitter. If Iggy can become at least a poor hitter, he might be a better option.

    "At worst an average fielder" sounds about right. It's hard to know for sure, but in limited action he does have a +12.4 UZR/150. I'm guessing, however, that he is middle of the road. He might be a top 10 hitting SS as well. 

    My guess is Iggy is a top 5 fielding SS and bottom 5 fielder. On the surface, it appears that Aviles is the better choice, but when you factor in that our SS will likely bat 9th and that the SS position is worth much more on defense than other positions, I'd say the choice is close, and I like to choose the defense when close.

    2. And maybe, a better hitter at SS would have had a clutch hit to drive in runs -- or kept an inning alive and it turned into a big inning -- so the game wasn't close. We can play the maybe game all night long. And sure, the Sox have Punto to bring in for D but do they want to have to use three players to get through one position in all the close games.

    I agree, the counterargument makes sense too, but all close games will not mean Iggy gets up in a PH situation. 

    Don't ignore my point. I have no problem with losing some offense for a great glove at SS. But unless Iggy shows something in the spring, he hasn't yet shown he has enough of a bat to provide the right mix. Again, there's no need to rush the kid -- especially  when you consider that playing SS at Fenway can be a challenge for even experienced SS with a decent glove.

    I have not ignored your point. I understand it well. 
    1) I don't think 22 is too young.
    2) Iggy played 2 years in Cuba and 2 years in the minors already.
    3) Tell Iggy not to worry about his bat and just catch the damn ball.
    4) Anything over .200 is a plus, if he can save 40-80 hits over a year, not to mention keeping runners from trying to score when he's the cut-off guy & turning DPs.

    I realize my opinion is just that: an opinion. I know I could be wrong...terribly wrong. I know Aviles/Punto is the safer bet with Iggy getting steady work in AAA, until the time is right (if ever), but my philosophy is that a great fielding SS influences games, pitcher's confidences, and momentum more than one batter's extra hit every 4 games.

    I respect your opinion and those of others who want Aviles to get the chance. I actually have faith in Mike, and think he will likely have a better season than Scutty would have had here this year (Batting & fielding).
    c
     
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    Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?

    Not concerned at all.  Scutaro is better, but not by a wide margin.  Posters still forgetting that he missed a lot of time last year, and wasn't much of a hitter the previous year.  Regression is in order.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?

    In Response to Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto?:
    In Response to Re: The Red Sox gamble: Should they entrust shortstop to Aviles and Punto? : Very good..... What was Ozzie Smiths lifetime average around 260? maybe?
    Posted by donrd4

    Right....but iggy has not shown that he could hit anywhere near 260.

     
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