The Silent Trigger

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    The Silent Trigger

    While threads will likely blossom questioning Tito's staying with Lester for 127 pitches, I'd like to jump ahead of them by looking back to Sunday's double-header.

    Tito was locked in a 3-3 game, and chose Albers to pitch the 7th. He did well and obviously was in better form than his last debacle, when he was asked to set up the 8th frame.
     
    Instead of going to Bard or Hill, Tito stayed with Albers, asking him once again to venture into the 8th inning. This was risky as he knew facing Verlander - a .700+ pitcher at home in his career - could be an uphill battle in game 2.

    So the idea was to go all out to win game one. Knowing he would like to save either Bard/Paps for game 2 if possible, the quandary was thus present. Using Bard in lieu of Albers in the 8th would have been the "safe" thing to do.

    And I'm willing to bet there would have been many threads hammering 'COMA' had the move to stay with Albers backfired. I could just feel the fingers on the "START DISCUSSION" tab. But Albers continued to be effective. This allowed Tito to extend the game in better fashion, in that he had Hill/Bard/Paps in reserve come the 9th on.

    The trigger on Tito was cocked and ready to fire - but it fell silent. Now I ask those who were ready to pounce on him: Did you ever consider crediting him for a gutsy move that worked?

    I didn't see one thread or even one post doing as much.
    Let this be that one.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: The Silent Trigger

    Very true.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The Silent Trigger

    This is why I avoid the "game threads". The Monday morning QB'ing is way out of hand. No matter what Tito does, if it fails, it's his fault, if it works, silence. I am 100% certain some posters would bash Tito for leaving a guy in and he blows up, or taking him out and the reliever blows up. Either way, they would say he made a mistake.

    I have my differences with Tito. Most are philosophical in nature and not so much about individual in game moves and non-moves. I do think Tito is better than every other manager we have had in a long time (not saying much) at in game decisions.

    I have issues with his overdepedency on loyalty to vets, playing the big money guys over the more deserving, and most of all, relying on old paradigms like L-R-L line-up absurdities.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Only-In-America. Show Only-In-America's posts

    Re: The Silent Trigger

    ANOTHER DAY/ ANOTHER SLOW DAY FOR THE FORUM.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: The Silent Trigger

    I also have beefs with Tito, Moon. But both of us recognize the positives.
    That Albers move was gutsy, but not one basher acknowledged it. Nobody did.
    IMO, that game was won or lost right there.
    And considering the team had recently moved into first place for the first time in 2011, losing that first game would have triggered an backlash of whining.

    It proves what I have said for years: The posters who see only the negatives are gutless. They selfishly vent, subjecting the rest of us to an endless stream of it.
    If ever they point out a player/manager/GM's attributes, it would compromise their stance. In their minds, it would mean that they just might be a tiny bit wrong. And if they are a tiny bit wrong, then they may realize they may be wrong about more.

    They hide behind a wall of negativity. I dare any of them to acknowledge this move...or anythingpositive about Terry Francona as a manager.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from losmediasrojas. Show losmediasrojas's posts

    Re: The Silent Trigger

    In Response to Re: The Silent Trigger:
    I also have beefs with Tito, Moon . But both of us recognize the positives. That Albers move was gutsy, but not one basher acknowledged it. Nobody did. IMO, that game was won or lost right there. And considering the team had recently moved into first place for the first time in 2011, losing that first game would have triggered an backlash of whining . It proves what I have said for years: The posters who see only the negatives are gutless . They selfishly vent, subjecting the rest of us to an endless stream of it. If ever they point out a player/manager/GM's attributes, it would compromise their stance. In their minds, it would mean that they just might be a tiny bit wrong. And if they are a tiny bit wrong, then they may realize they may be wrong about more. They hide behind a wall of negativity. I dare any of them to acknowledge this move...or anything positive about Terry Francona as a manager.
    Posted by harness


    All you have to do is check Monday's game thread.  One poster suggested Tito take out Lester before the inning began, so this critique doesn't apply there, although he didn't suggest who would replace him at the time and how this might play out over four innings.  The rest of the mob starting hurling insults at Tito suggesting that the move (after it happened, of course) was obvious. 
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: The Silent Trigger

    Game threads bring out animal instincts.
    I think that's why BDC Dottie recently gave us the more clinical alternative.

    I do think game threads save this place from hundreds of knee-jerk threads. That's why venting on one is a good thing.

    Game thread aside, the constant negative posters actually have a thought process. It often goes beyond venting. I just want them to see themselves true.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from drpjn. Show drpjn's posts

    Re: The Silent Trigger

    In Response to Re: The Silent Trigger:
    This is why I avoid the "game threads". The Monday morning QB'ing is way out of hand. No matter what Tito does, if it fails, it's his fault, if it works, silence. I am 100% certain some posters would bash Tito for leaving a guy in and he blows up, or taking him out and the reliever blows up. Either way, they would say he made a mistake. I have my differences with Tito. Most are philosophical in nature and not so much about individual in game moves and non-moves. I do think Tito is better than every other manager we have had in a long time (not saying much) at in game decisions. I have issues with his overdepedency on loyalty to vets, playing the big money guys over the more deserving, and most of all, relying on old paradigms like L-R-L line-up absurdities.
    Posted by moonslav59


    EXTREMELY wel lstated, Moon!
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: The Silent Trigger

    this thread is strange...Harness is trying to preempt 'Coma bashing for leaving a gassed Lester in for an absurd 127 pitches when he clearly had NOTHING all night long...

    then you go on the attack for criticizing folks for not complimenting the Albers decision to pitch him in the 8th and not use Bard....


    then Moon jumps in and confirms what DIDNT happen and throws in that game threads are full of backstabbing fans when he clearly states that he doesnt go on them...

    First - I have no idea why Lester was left in because he sukked and allowing him to throw that many pitches will force Tito to limit his count next start if he follows his own 330 rule for 3 starts

    Second - Albers was left in because Bard has been overused...it was a good move but obvious...it feels like you are really reaching to give Tito credit for bullpen moves

    Third - Moon I never see you in the game day threads and to characterize them as filled with ingrates is laughable...99% of the posts are rah-rah stuff like Yoshi proposing marriage and fans supporting their players at bat and in the field....I mean what the heck are fans supposed to say when Lester is allowed to throw 127 pitches...good call Tito?????

    Lastly this is from the Springfield Republican today -  a bland newspaper that spends little time analyzing anything Terry does...

    That brings us to another subject, however. Francona has handled his starting pitchers in bizarre fashion this season, pushing pitch counts in some circumstances and using quick hooks in others.

    The latest example is Jon Lester's start Monday night. Scuffling most of the night, he threw 127 pitches in 5 2/3 innings, giving up seven runs and 14 baserunners in a painful performance.

    Sometimes you guys should just admit the obvious - it doesnt make you any less of a fan imo

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The Silent Trigger

    They hide behind a wall of negativity. I dare any of them to acknowledge this move...or anythingpositive about Terry Francona as a manager.

    If pressed to comment, they'd probably say "Tito got lucky" or "we won despite Tito"..
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: The Silent Trigger

    Thats true Geo - next game the score will be 2-1 and Lester will be cruising along.... Tito pulls him on 100 pitches and the pen blows the game.... ugh.

    I want my starters pitching a full 7 if they are going well - and if my starter is dominating I want him in all the close games until the end... why turn over the game to some cold arm.

    I have always been on record (and I may be the only one) that Grady was correct to send Pedro out in the 8th inning in 2003 - he just should have had Williamson ready if the tying run got to the plate.  Pedro was pitching very well all along.... 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: The Silent Trigger

    Isn't the game thread sort of like being at the game - you guys make it sound like there should be no "aaahs" "oooohs" or "boooos".... if you controlled Fenway I would not be surprised if you demanded everyone sit on their hands and kept their mouths shut the entire game, wearing a mandatory clueless smile on their face.

    I am not sure why now that the troll police and some other posters have been banned your now turning your attention to policing a Game Thread that you never participate in... as geo says "this thread is strange."
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: The Silent Trigger

    I have to weigh in here, because I like the game threads precisely because they are not laced with judgemental monday-morning qb-ing and trashing of players.  Yes, there are knee-jerk exclamation point laced posts in capital letters, but you know they are just in the moment and excited.  I would rather read 100 "LESTER'S STILL IN THERE?!?!?!"s than one 3 paragraph, semi-informed, "analysis" of why Tito is a terrible manager because he didn't pull Lester.  A. I've heard it all before.  B. The know-it-all BS that is spewed by people here is much more loathesome to me than some fiery game thread exclamations.  That is actually fun.  And, when the panic-ridden fools show their azz on a game thread, it is fun to see them eat their words it in real time.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: The Silent Trigger

    That is a good point Space - you can always catch someone eating their words.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac32. Show pinstripezac32's posts

    Re: The Silent Trigger

    In Response to Re: The Silent Trigger:
    this thread is strange...Harness is trying to preempt 'Coma bashing for leaving a gassed Lester in for an absurd 127 pitches when he clearly had NOTHING all night long... then you go on the attack for criticizing folks for not complimenting the Albers decision to pitch him in the 8th and not use Bard.... then Moon jumps in and confirms what DIDNT happen and throws in that game threads are full of backstabbing fans when he clearly states that he doesnt go on them... First - I have no idea why Lester was left in because he sukked and allowing him to throw that many pitches will force Tito to limit his count next start if he follows his own 330 rule for 3 starts Second - Albers was left in because Bard has been overused...it was a good move but obvious...it feels like you are really reaching to give Tito credit for bullpen moves Third - Moon I never see you in the game day threads and to characterize them as filled with ingrates is laughable...99% of the posts are rah-rah stuff like Yoshi proposing marriage and fans supporting their players at bat and in the field....I mean what the heck are fans supposed to say when Lester is allowed to throw 127 pitches...good call Tito????? Lastly this is from the Springfield Republican today -  a bland newspaper that spends little time analyzing anything Terry does... That brings us to another subject, however. Francona has handled his starting pitchers in bizarre fashion this season , pushing pitch counts in some circumstances and using quick hooks in others. The latest example is Jon Lester's start Monday night. Scuffling most of the night, he threw 127 pitches in 5 2/3 innings, giving up seven runs and 14 baserunners in a painful performance. Sometimes you guys should just admit the obvious - it doesnt make you any less of a fan imo
    Posted by georom4


    Francona said he left him in the game longer than usual since Lester, who picked up his first loss since April 12, won't pitch again until June 7.


    if a fan can't question that

    why have a message board





    Ian Browne..mlb.com

    Lester tossed a season-high 127 pitches, throwing just 72 for strikes. He hadn't thrown that many pitches since hurling his no-hitter against the Royals in May 2008, when he threw 130. 

    Francona said he left him in the game longer than usual since Lester, who picked up his first loss since April 12, won't pitch again until June 7.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: The Silent Trigger

    Lester, Buchholz and Beckett have all been allowed to have a 125-127 pitch  outing this year.  The Springfield Republican might find it 'bizarre', but I think it's something that was decided on before the season, that the starters could occasionally have a high pitch count under some conditions.  We've already heard about Curt Young's 330 pitches per 3 starts guideline.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from joel49. Show joel49's posts

    Re: The Silent Trigger

    I enjoy taking part in the game threads.  I live alone, so when my GF is unable to watch the game with me, I have a slew of "friends" with whom to hobnob come game time.  While it is mostly rah-rah, and I am guilty of same, there is usually some good in game analysis going on.

    Last night I left the the thread (not the game) as soon as Lester gave up the bloop hit to lose the lead and Wheeler came in.  I knew the onslaught against Terry was coming and frankly it spoils my enjoyment of the game.  It's one thing to say I'd have left him in or I'd have yanked him and give the reasons why, but the vehemence and the name calling displayed is just plain ugly.  I was on the fence as to whether to yank Jon when he loaded the bases, but I couldn't figure out whom he should bring in if Terry did bring out the hook.  Wheeler?  Bowden?  Didn't sound like good choices with the bases juiced.  Jon had just struck out the previous batter with a good cutter.  I figured if he wasn't totally gassed he might get out of it.  It backfired.  It happens. 

    I went back after the game and looked at the thread.  Several posters had shown up to vent their usual Francona vitriol.  None of them had made a single post up until that point.  And that's what gets me.  Where are these people when we're winning?  I'm not saying one needs to cheer every good play, but as harness points out, they are never around to say, "good move, Terry."  And believe me, I do not agree with all his moves, especially where the pitching staff is involved.  But I do accept that he knows a hell of a lot more than I do about his team.  For the record I'd have pulled Jon after five, but I haven't a clue as to what went on in the dugout and into the decision to send him out for the sixth.  I assume Jon convinced the coaching staff he could get it done, and sometimes that's what you go with.  Once he was out there, as I said, I was on the fence as to when to yank him.  I'm okay with the decision that was made.  Sure, it was a disappointing loss, but it just doesn't warrant the vehement spewing of insults by the usually silent critics.  It's as if they just can't wait for the sh!t to hit the fan so they can begin their predictable tirades.       
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from J-BAY. Show J-BAY's posts

    Re: The Silent Trigger

    agreed joel. when you disapperared last night, i knew why. i did too for a while, for the same reason. some posters come on only when they can complain or criticize. they all know better, in hindsight. I agreed with sending Lester out for the 6th, as he was under 100 pitches. I also was debating would i or woundnt i pull him, when the bases were loaded and pitch count was the highest Lester had ever thrown, other than the no hitter. I think some of the decision was based on who was available in the bullpen, wheeler and bowden. I  accept the decisions that are made; the lineup, who is getting a day off, who pitches when and to whom, until they ask me. I live with the outcome. i have come to believe some posters would rather be right, than see them win.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from joel49. Show joel49's posts

    Re: The Silent Trigger

    In Response to Re: The Silent Trigger:
    agreed joel. when you disapperared last night, i knew why. i did also for a while, for the same reason. same posters come on only when they can complain or criticize. they all know better, in hindsight. I agreed with sending Lester out for the 6th, as he was under 100 pitches. I also was debating would i or woundnt i pull him, when the bases were loaded and pitch count was the highest Lester had ever thrown, other than the no hitter. I think some of the decision was based on who was available in the bullpen, wheeler and bowden. I also accept the decisions that are made, the lineup, who is getting a day off, who pitches to whom, etc. until they ask me. I live with the outcome. i have come to believe some posters would rather be right than see them win.
    Posted by J-BAY


    And therein lies the crux perhaps.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: The Silent Trigger

    i was out enjoying the evening with the girlfriend and missed the Monday game thread altogether...was listening to it on radio....but i usually find 95% of the gameday threads to be tame stuff....i mean you do expect fans to be upset over blowing a lead or losing badly, right???

    if you cant handle that maybe you shouldnt be on the forum - just sayin"
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Only-In-America. Show Only-In-America's posts

    Re: The Silent Trigger

    In Response to Re: The Silent Trigger:
    Game threads bring out animal instincts. I think that's why BDC Dottie recently gave us the more clinical alternative. I do think game threads save this place from hundreds of knee-jerk threads. That's why venting on one is a good thing. Game thread aside, the constant negative posters actually have a thought process. It often goes beyond venting. I just want them to see themselves true .
    Posted by harness
    GAME THREADS GOT ONLY 193 POSTS. STILL
    THE FORUM IS VERY SLOW.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: The Silent Trigger

    The point of this thread is not about game threads. It's about recognizing a positive in a sea of negativity. I knew Tito would get blasted for the Lester decision. Tito looks great if Lester gets the out.

    How much credit did anybody give Tito for staying with Albers in game one vs. the Tigers? Losing two on Sunday would have been big. Especially when Buch was matched against an 0-4 pitcher. And Verlander looming in the wings.
    Bard was fully warmed up and ready to come in. But by using Albers - it gave Tito flexibility in that he had Hill/Bard/Paps to extend the game, which meant it took some pressure off the hitters. They knew they didn't have to score in the 9th or it's no man's land with the pen, which is often how Tito manages EI games.

    I'm not saying I agreed with Tito on Lester. In fact, I'm more concerned about Jon's velocity being down 2-3 MPH - and him not willing to throw a curve ball. Not a good sign. My point is that if we are gonna be critical of Tito, why not give him some credit for a gutsy move?



    Nobody is saying anything about "policing" game threads. I don't participate in them myself, but I scan them occasionally to get a pulse on the tone. There are pros & cons to game threads. I spoke of the pros: let the venting be done on one thread. Let friends share in the experience.
    Joel and Jay-B mentioned the cons. But nobody is for abolishing them. Not at all.

    Baseball is a game of swaying momentum. Like an emotional roller-coaster. But the thought process that goes into negativity, beyond moment-to-moment impulses, is disturbing. It borders on hate. Everything is painted black. In this instance, Tito can only be blamed by Tito bashers. Despite the fact that in-game managerial moves are percentage-based.  He's supposed to make the right ones. But the ones that turn out sour are constant ammunition. Sometimes there is no 'right' move.

    Think about Law and how he attacked and blamed Theo at every turn.
    What does that say about Law? What does it say about people who have to have someone to blame?
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: The Silent Trigger

    I wonder if Tito will get bashed for giving up too early tonight?
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The Silent Trigger

    Well 2 of the guys hr brought in did well on offense...

    Sutton  2-2 & 2 RBIs
    Reddick 1-1 & an RBI

    I don't think Archison was a "white flag" move.
    We don't have a long guy now that both are starting (Aceves & Wake).
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: The Silent Trigger

    If posters pose as Sox fans on other boards, why would everyone assume they're not doing it here?  I don't get it.

    It's quite possible that some of the negative posters who aren't around or simply never say anything positive when positive things happen for the Sox, are not Sox fans.
     
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