Theo, again, I know.

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Modano09. Show Modano09's posts

    Theo, again, I know.


    Yes, another Theo thread.

    I've gone back and fourth on Theo. I wasn't thrilled that he traded franchise player Nomar Garciaparra for a lesser shortstop and a back up 1B. Then they won the World Series and I bought into the boy genius reputation. Even if it didn't make sense to me, Theo knew what he was doing and it would all work out in the end. But seven years later, the bad moves seem to out number the good.

    Hey, give the guy his due. He helped the team win two World Series Championships, which nobody in Boston had succeeded in doing for 86 years. But how big a role did he play? He took over a team that already had Manny, Damon, Nixon, Nomar, Lowe, Pedro and Varitek. Not a bad start. He traded Shea Hillenbrand for BY Kim. I wouldn't have brought a guy best known for back to back World Series blow ups against the Yankees to Boston, but that's me. But he did add Mueller, Millar, Walker/Bellhorn and Ortiz. It'd be interesting to know the thought process behind those moves. Was he really a genius to know these guys would make the Sox an immediate contender? Or did he merely plug holes with low risk guys and it happened to work out much better than anyone expected? At the time I thought he just knew what he was doing. In retrospect, Theo loved the low risk guys other teams over-looked and very few have worked out since 2003.

    I give him full credit for making the trade for Curt Schilling. I don't think it takes a genius to know that a proven playoff ace with a World Series ring and MVP award would be a good guy to have around, but give him full marks for going out and making the trade happen. Oddly enough, I think that's just the type of move he wouldn't make in later years. If an ace is available, and he's going to cost dollars and prospects, does Theo post-2004 make that move? I don't think so. Maybe he was in love with his own prospects. Or maybe he started to believe his own hype and thought he was too smart to make the obvious moves.

    Theo just never struck me as having a firm philosophy. He would let his own players, after proven success in Boston, leave when he didn't feel they were worth the dollars or years they asked for, preaching financial responsibility and flexibility. Then he would go out and spend as much or more money on other guys who rarely panned out. He's haggle with Mark Texiera over a couple of million dollars, then let John Lackey write his own cheque. When Roy Halladay was available, he didn't want to give up Clay Buchholz. I became a fan of Clay, but why would you pass on a guy who's a Cy Young candidate now to hold onto a guy who potentially could be years down the road. Was it because Clay is cost controlled for a couple of years while Halladay will cost a big contract? If that's the idea, fair enough. But then why spend so freely in other areas? It became almost a sure thing that when a Red Sox player was in his last year of free agency, he'd hit the market, get a good offer, and leave town when the Sox refused to move off the price they set for the player. So why extend Beckett at the start of the season when he hadn't been a dominant ace in two years?

    In the end, Theo was at the helm for two World Series in Boston. That will be his legacy. But when you take a closer look at him, I really don't see him as a genius who was two steps ahead of every one else. You can't deny the success he's had drafting players, but how much of that credit goes to the scouting department? Regardless, it'll be interesting to see how he fares in Chicago, where he's now the guy in charge, with his proteges working under him, coming to a team that doesn't quite have the foundation to build on the 2003 Red Sox had. 
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter1. Show parhunter1's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    Theo did well early on in his tenure, doing the money ball thing:  Ortiz, Millar, Mueller, Roberts, Reese.

    But Theo's big problem was undervaluing his own players, and trying to get what he considered to be almost super stars in FA at good value.  In the end he signed a lot of high priced decent(or were they on the descent) players. 
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    In Response to Theo, again, I know.:
    [QUOTE]Yes, another Theo thread. I've gone back and fourth on Theo. I wasn't thrilled that he traded franchise player Nomar Garciaparra for a lesser shortstop and a back up 1B. Then they won the World Series and I bought into the boy genius reputation. Even if it didn't make sense to me, Theo knew what he was doing and it would all work out in the end. But seven years later, the bad moves seem to out number the good. Hey, give the guy his due. He helped the team win two World Series Championships, which nobody in Boston had succeeded in doing for 86 years. But how big a role did he play? He took over a team that already had Manny, Damon, Nixon, Nomar, Lowe, Pedro and Varitek. Not a bad start. He traded Shea Hillenbrand for BY Kim. I wouldn't have brought a guy best known for back to back World Series blow ups against the Yankees to Boston, but that's me. But he did add Mueller, Millar, Walker/Bellhorn and Ortiz. It'd be interesting to know the thought process behind those moves. Was he really a genius to know these guys would make the Sox an immediate contender? Or did he merely plug holes with low risk guys and it happened to work out much better than anyone expected? At the time I thought he just knew what he was doing. In retrospect, Theo loved the low risk guys other teams over-looked and very few have worked out since 2003. I give him full credit for making the trade for Curt Schilling. I don't think it takes a genius to know that a proven playoff ace with a World Series ring and MVP award would be a good guy to have around, but give him full marks for going out and making the trade happen. Oddly enough, I think that's just the type of move he wouldn't make in later years. If an ace is available, and he's going to cost dollars and prospects, does Theo post-2004 make that move? I don't think so. Maybe he was in love with his own prospects. Or maybe he started to believe his own hype and thought he was too smart to make the obvious moves. Theo just never struck me as having a firm philosophy. He would let his own players, after proven success in Boston, leave when he didn't feel they were worth the dollars or years they asked for, preaching financial responsibility and flexibility. Then he would go out and spend as much or more money on other guys who rarely panned out. He's haggle with Mark Texiera over a couple of million dollars, then let John Lackey write his own cheque. When Roy Halladay was available, he didn't want to give up Clay Buchholz. I became a fan of Clay, but why would you pass on a guy who's a Cy Young candidate now to hold onto a guy who potentially could be years down the road. Was it because Clay is cost controlled for a couple of years while Halladay will cost a big contract? If that's the idea, fair enough. But then why spend so freely in other areas? It became almost a sure thing that when a Red Sox player was in his last year of free agency, he'd hit the market, get a good offer, and leave town when the Sox refused to move off the price they set for the player. So why extend Beckett at the start of the season when he hadn't been a dominant ace in two years? In the end, Theo was at the helm for two World Series in Boston. That will be his legacy. But when you take a closer look at him, I really don't see him as a genius who was two steps ahead of every one else. You can't deny the success he's had drafting players, but how much of that credit goes to the scouting department? Regardless, it'll be interesting to see how he fares in Chicago, where he's now the guy in charge, with his proteges working under him, coming to a team that doesn't quite have the foundation to build on the 2003 Red Sox had. 
    Posted by Modano09[/QUOTE]

    I think you gloss over some of his better moves, give him too much credit for others and like any GM sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. It goes without saying that some of his signings fell short...Not sure that I can find much fault in his letting guys like Pedro, Damon and Lowe walk. If you go back and check, the picks we were awarded as compensation turned into some pretty good ball players...

    As far as his role in helping us to win 2 WS his finger prints are all over the 2004 and the 2007 flags...Hoiw much credit he derserves I'll leave that to his bosses to access...

    Do we win in 2004 without Schillings and Foulke? Doubful...Those were the key aquisitions that bolstered the pitching staff with a bonafide #1 and a proven closer. Something we lacked in 2003. While he did take over a team with a solid nucleaus in place. It was he and I believe Hoyer and Brynes that spent Thanksgiving at the Schillings house to convince him that waiving his no trade and coming to Boston was in his best interest...Schilling has stated on numerous occasions that it was the data that Epstein presented him with that swayed his decision (the cash didn't hurt either)...

    As you stated above he did sign some pretty decent complimentary players and made a couple of deadline deals...trading Garciaparra took stones for a kid that was just 29 years old...

    If you recall the key contributors of our game four comeback against the Yanks that forced a game 5...Millar walked, Robert pinch ran and scored on base hit by Mueller plating the tying run...Oh by the way Papi won it with a walk off...all of them were Epstein guys...

    the 2007 team had his stamp all over it moreso than the 2004 team...but there's no need delve into it now...suffice to say that the kid did a good job and likely will be just as successful in Chicago...

    What we all will soon find out is that the man behind the curtain (Luccino) is at the heart of why the franchise has done so well since Henry and Werner bought them. Luccino served as Epsteins mentor and though they have completely differing styles Luccino knows what he's doing and will take Cherington uncer his wing and together they'll quickly right the ship...
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Theo, again, I know. : Do we win in 2004 without Schillings and Foulke? Doubful...
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]Do we win in 2004 without Big Papi? No. David Ortiz has to go down as Theo's best move ever.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtDawgSox. Show DirtDawgSox's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know.:
    [QUOTE]Theo did well early on in his tenure, doing the money ball thing:  Ortiz, Millar, Mueller, Roberts, Reese. But Theo's big problem was undervaluing his own players, and trying to get what he considered to be almost super stars in FA at good value.  In the end he signed a lot of high priced decent(or were they on the descent) players. 
    Posted by parhunter1[/QUOTE]
    yes, Theo did well at first but in recent years nada
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know. : Do we win in 2004 without Big Papi? No. David Ortiz has to go down as Theo's best move ever.
    Posted by carnie[/QUOTE]

    the irony of that is that it was Manny that recommended the Sox sign him after working out with him in the Dominican....hmmmm
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter1. Show parhunter1's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    "working out with him..."  I likes your style.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know. : the irony of that is that it was Manny that recommended the Sox sign him after working out with him in the Dominican....hmmmm
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]Manny is another guy who doesn't get enough love from Red Sox nation I think. Bill-806 slanders him all over the board, but I'll always remember that coke bottle shot he hit off the Angels in 2007. In his interview after the game he said "I'm a bad man." He was definitely Duke's best free agent signing.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Modano09. Show Modano09's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Theo, again, I know. : I think you gloss over some of his better moves, give him too much credit for others and like any GM sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. It goes without saying that some of his signings fell short...Not sure that I can find much fault in his letting guys like Pedro, Damon and Lowe walk. If you go back and check, the picks we were awarded as compensation turned into some pretty good ball players... As far as his role in helping us to win 2 WS his finger prints are all over the 2004 and the 2007 flags...Hoiw much credit he derserves I'll leave that to his bosses to access... Do we win in 2004 without Schillings and Foulke? Doubful...Those were the key aquisitions that bolstered the pitching staff with a bonafide #1 and a proven closer. Something we lacked in 2003. While he did take over a team with a solid nucleaus in place. It was he and I believe Hoyer and Brynes that spent Thanksgiving at the Schillings house to convince him that waiving his no trade and coming to Boston was in his best interest...Schilling has stated on numerous occasions that it was the data that Epstein presented him with that swayed his decision (the cash didn't hurt either)... As you stated above he did sign some pretty decent complimentary players and made a couple of deadline deals...trading Garciaparra took stones for a kid that was just 29 years old... If you recall the key contributors of our game four comeback against the Yanks that forced a game 5...Millar walked, Robert pinch ran and scored on base hit by Mueller plating the tying run...Oh by the way Papi won it with a walk off...all of them were Epstein guys... the 2007 team had his stamp all over it moreso than the 2004 team...but there's no need delve into it now...suffice to say that the kid did a good job and likely will be just as successful in Chicago... What we all will soon find out is that the man behind the curtain (Luccino) is at the heart of why the franchise has done so well since Henry and Werner bought them. Luccino served as Epsteins mentor and though they have completely differing styles Luccino knows what he's doing and will take Cherington uncer his wing and together they'll quickly right the ship...
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]


    Fair points, especially pointing out the guys who led the comeback in game 4 all being Theo guys. My only argument to that would be the possibility that maybe he got lucky when he signed those guys. I only say that because he has been trying to find high reward/low risk guys ever since, and it's rarely paid off. Wily Mo Pena didn't become the next David Ortiz. Coco Crisp didn't become the next Johnny Damon. Jeremy Hermida didn't work out. Roco Baldelli didn't work out. Brad Penny, John Smoltz, Wade Miller didn't work out. Jay Payton didn't work out. Mike Cameron didn't work out. Matt Clement, David Wells, didn't work out. Did he plug holes in 2003 that happened to work out better than expected? Or did he know what these guys were going to do? The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Can't argue them being great moves either way though.

    After winning in 2004, I didn't like coming back in 2005 with 2/3 of their top 3 starters gone, and the other one still hurt. Lowe's a tricky one because he had a bad regular season, but was lights out in the playoffs. He could play and loved being in Boston, but according to reports loved it a little too much. Pedro would have made a difference in 2005. Would it have been worth 1 and 1/2 to 2 wasted seasons of Pedro to have him in 2005/2006? It wouldn't have been the biggest waste of money under Theo's reign...They won again in 2007. Manny was a huge part of that. Why play hardball with his option years? Why not just pick them up and avoid the distraction? That isn't to defend how Manny handled the situation at all, but I would think most teams would love to have a guy like Manny under team control coming off a World Series year...They were wrong on Damon.

    It took a lot of guts to make the Nomar trade. But in a way I think Theo thought after the success of that move that he could do no wrong. He made a lot of moves that seemed unconventional (most teams re-sign Damon, Theo lets him walk and predicts Coco to eventually equal his productive) that didn't work out. But again, it's the odd hypocrisy where he seemed so hesitant to spend money in some areas but so willing to spend it in others. But like you said, he under-valued his own players.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sheriff-Rojas. Show Sheriff-Rojas's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    Some people who assess Theo get a little too hung up on the "genius" label as if all people who defend him as a successful GM called him that.  As a previous poster implied, Theo got into the position, along with management, of being able to shift the direction of the team with some creative strategies that were a bit ahead of the curve at the time.  Since then, upper management of other organizations have adjusted and adapted and its a bit more difficult to carve out that extra edge that gives one team an advantage over others. 

    Sure, he inherited a good team and got a bit lucky by winning a World Series or two early in his tenure.  But to some degree, he made his luck by putting the team in that position.  As a GM, that's about the best you can do.  Since then, his luck has run out a bit.  It happens.  Over the long-run, the odds are against it.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from bfras921. Show bfras921's posts

    theo good riddence

    you boy blunder
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: theo good riddence

    In Response to theo good riddence:
    [QUOTE]you boy blunder
    Posted by bfras921[/QUOTE]Huh?
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sheriff-Rojas. Show Sheriff-Rojas's posts

    Re: theo good riddence

    In Response to theo good riddence:
    [QUOTE]you boy blunder
    Posted by bfras921[/QUOTE]


    Posts: 2
    First: 10/31/2005
    Last: 10/22/2011

    So according to the record, you're good for about one post every six years.  I wonder if your other one is equally as enlightening. 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know. : Manny is another guy who doesn't get enough love from Red Sox nation I think. Bill-806 slanders him all over the board, but I'll always remember that coke bottle shot he hit off the Angels in 2007. In his interview after the game he said "I'm a bad man." He was definitely Duke's best free agent signing.
    Posted by carnie[/QUOTE]

    That ranks among my favorite all time home runs.  The bat drop, the arms raised as he watched it sail out of the park, epic.  They had intentially walked Papi, with 2 outs, to get to Manny.  Oops.  And yes, that interview was classic Manny.

    Manny haters can't see the forest for the trees.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Modano09. Show Modano09's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know. : That ranks among my favorite all time home runs.  The bat drop, the arms raised as he watched it sail out of the park, epic.  They had intentially walked Papi, with 2 outs, to get to Manny.  Oops.  And yes, that interview was classic Manny. Manny haters can't see the forest for the trees.
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    I don't see how anyone can hate him. They don't win two World Series without him. And as well as Jason Bay played for Boston, there's a big difference between facing Jason Bay and Manny.

    It's too bad it was such an ugly ending. Can't defend how he handled the situation but I don't see why it had to get to that point in the first place. After just winning a World Series, you'd think having Manny under team control would be an ideal situation, not sure why they felt the need to be difficult about it.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from OurMan. Show OurMan's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know. : I don't see how anyone can hate him. They don't win two World Series without him. And as well as Jason Bay played for Boston, there's a big difference between facing Jason Bay and Manny. It's too bad it was such an ugly ending. Can't defend how he handled the situation but I don't see why it had to get to that point in the first place. After just winning a World Series, you'd think having Manny under team control would be an ideal situation, not sure why they felt the need to be difficult about it.
    Posted by Modano09[/QUOTE]

    Red Sox don't win the 2004 World Series without Manny, who happened to be the MVP of the World Series.

    Theo had NOTHING to do with Manny being here.

    Who pitched the Red Sox home to the 1st title in 86 years?
    Derek Lowe and Pedro.

    Two more Duquette players.

    Theo was more ZERO than hero.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know. : Red Sox don't win the 2004 World Series without Manny, who happened to be the MVP of the World Series. Theo had NOTHING to do with Manny being here. Who pitched the Red Sox home to the 1st title in 86 years? Derek Lowe and Pedro. Two more Duquette players. Theo was more ZERO than hero.
    Posted by OurMan[/QUOTE]Do you think Cherington might bring the Duke back to Boston? They're both Amherst guys...
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from OurMan. Show OurMan's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know. : Do you think Cherington might bring the Duke back to Boston? They're both Amherst guys...
    Posted by carnie[/QUOTE]

    Anyone but Theo Epstein has the ability to get the Red Sox back to World Series contention as soon as 2012.

    Why not Duke? He put together the team that started it all for the Sox.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Modano09. Show Modano09's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know. : Red Sox don't win the 2004 World Series without Manny, who happened to be the MVP of the World Series. Theo had NOTHING to do with Manny being here. Who pitched the Red Sox home to the 1st title in 86 years? Derek Lowe and Pedro. Two more Duquette players. Theo was more ZERO than hero.
    Posted by OurMan[/QUOTE]

    Wasn't Lowe supposed to go to the Cubs for Clement? Not sure how that was decided against but I recall them supposed to be part of the Nomar trade originally. Glad that didn't happen.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know. : Red Sox don't win the 2004 World Series without Manny, who happened to be the MVP of the World Series. Theo had NOTHING to do with Manny being here. Who pitched the Red Sox home to the 1st title in 86 years? Derek Lowe and Pedro. Two more Duquette players. Theo was more ZERO than hero.
    Posted by OurMan[/QUOTE]

    You know, these kind of threads are actually very stupid.

    Yes, Manny came here because of Duquette.  Ditto Lowe and Pedro.  The problem with your logic is, if Manny, Pedro, Lowe and Duquette were all that was needed to win a championship, why didn't they win one before 2003?
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know. : the irony of that is that it was Manny that recommended the Sox sign him after working out with him in the Dominican....hmmmm
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]

    Defintely ironic.

    and while I'm sure Manny's recommendation carried some weight, how exactly did Epstein ever convince him to come here?  He wasn't offered more money.  The team was creating a logjam at 1B/3B/DH.

    Maybe being friends with Manny helped convince Ortiz. but at some point you have to think the guy wanted a little guarantee about playing time, something at least half a dozen other AL teams could have given him more easily...
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    The Duke pulled the all time greatest swindle in MLB history imho. Heathcliff (gas can) Slocumb (apologies to CHB) for Derek Lowe and Jason Varitek. Plus he brought in Manny and Petey. I'll never understand why the guy gets no love.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Modano09. Show Modano09's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know. : Defintely ironic. and while I'm sure Manny's recommendation carried some weight, how exactly did Epstein ever convince him to come here?  He wasn't offered more money.  The team was creating a logjam at 1B/3B/DH. Maybe being friends with Manny helped convince Ortiz. but at some point you have to think the guy wanted a little guarantee about playing time, something at least half a dozen other AL teams could have given him more easily...
    Posted by notin[/QUOTE]

    I'm sure there were others but the only other team usually mentioned as wanting Ortiz was the Yankees, who showed some interest. They had Giambi and Millar as 1B/DH, not exactly two All Stars who's position is set in stone. Ortiz may have felt he had a decent shot at winning one of their jobs. I believe Mueller/Hillenbrand were primarily 3B so if nothing else Ortiz would have been a back up at either 1B or DH when Giambi or Millar had a day off.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know.:
    [QUOTE]The Duke pulled the all time greatest swindle in MLB history imho. Heathcliff (gas can) Slocumb (apologies to CHB) for Derek Lowe and Jason Varitek. Plus he brought in Manny and Petey. I'll never understand why the guy gets no love.
    Posted by carnie[/QUOTE]

    One of the best swindles, although getting Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore and Brandon Phillips for Bartolo Colon has to rank up there...
     
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