Theo, again, I know.

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    Modano,
    I'll try to counter each of your opins. I feel as though that your trying to devalue Epsteins role in the teams successes or at least that's the perception I have in reading your opins...So here go's...

    Fair points, especially pointing out the guys who led the comeback in game 4 all being Theo guys. My only argument to that would be the possibility that maybe he got lucky when he signed those guys. I only say that because he has been trying to find high reward/low risk guys ever since, and it's rarely paid off. Wily Mo Pena didn't become the next David Ortiz. Coco Crisp didn't become the next Johnny Damon. Jeremy Hermida didn't work out. Roco Baldelli didn't work out. Brad Penny, John Smoltz, Wade Miller didn't work out. Jay Payton didn't work out. Mike Cameron didn't work out. Matt Clement, David Wells, didn't work out. Did he plug holes in 2003 that happened to work out better than expected? Or did he know what these guys were going to do? The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Can't argue them being great moves either way though.

    Not sure he got lucky with the aquistions, although luck played a role in our winning four in a row vs the Yankees...If Tony Clarks ball had hit the wall instead of bouncing into the stands, we may well have been swept...

    As for players above none of them were counted on to be guys that carried the club all were complimentary types. Willy MO for Arroyo was both his worst and his best trade, becasue he learned a valuable lesson that "you can't have enough pitching"...Coco may not have been Johnny Damon but he proved to be a very valuable to the 2007 team playing inspired defense in center...Perhaps the greatest issue that I have or had with the Cameron signing was that they decided to move Ellsbury to left which resulted in him being trucked by Beltre. One cannot predict injury and Cameron never fully recoverd from the sport hernia in 2010...not sure that signing Cameron was a mistake given the terms and if healthy, hitting in the 8 hole and playing gold glove defense he could have been a solid addition. As for Clement, again injuries did him...least we forget he made the AL All Star team in 2005 before his shoulder gave out and let's not forget the ball he took off his head in Tampa.... Wells once healthy IMHO did just fine...He was signed to be a back of the rotation guy and did pitch well in the second half of 05 and was one of our better starters in 06'...what killed us in both 05 and 06 was Schilling after his "heroic" bloody sock run in 2004 was never the front of the rotation guy he was in 2004...

    Hermida and Baldelli were both signed as forth and fifth outfielders and while both for differing reason never delivered niether of them were fatal flaws nor was Payton who proved to everyone soon after demanding to be traded, why he was a bench player...Penny, Smoltz and Wade Miller were not unlike what the Yanks did this year with Colon signed to provide organizational depth and low risk/reward guys...in 2009 niether Penny nor Smoltz prevented us from making the post season and niether of them were even on the post season roster. If we want to point to real mistake Lackey would be the poster boy, because of the terms of his contract he's among the worst of all time....

    After winning in 2004, I didn't like coming back in 2005 with 2/3 of their top 3 starters gone, and the other one still hurt. Lowe's a tricky one because he had a bad regular season, but was lights out in the playoffs. He could play and loved being in Boston, but according to reports loved it a little too much. Pedro would have made a difference in 2005. Would it have been worth 1 and 1/2 to 2 wasted seasons of Pedro to have him in 2005/2006? It wouldn't have been the biggest waste of money under Theo's reign...They won again in 2007. Manny was a huge part of that. Why play hardball with his option years? Why not just pick them up and avoid the distraction? That isn't to defend how Manny handled the situation at all, but I would think most teams would love to have a guy like Manny under team control coming off a World Series year...They were wrong on Damon.

    I don't like to debate revisonist history...Fact of the matter is tha Lowe drank himself out of Boston and made some damning statements about Epstein in the press...As the old saying goes if you don't get along with your boss...print your resume...Pedro played his hand and got what he wanted from the Met's...Damon played his too and end of the day, he didn't negotiate in good faith and I would concur that of the players we let go he was the one that was the hardest to replace and it took until 2009 before Ells stepped up and was a legit leadoff guy...also what many forget is that Damon's was becoming a liablity in center having lost a step and couldn't throw the ball to 3rd...when the Yanks signed him they saw a clear path to left for him. We had Manny and Ortiz under contract so we didn't have the luxary of moving him to left nor could he get the at bats needed in the DH with Big Papi ...the devils in the details...

    Manny is well Manny, he played his hand trying to force the Red Sox to trade him because he and his new agent Scott Boras who IMHO was the mastermind behind Manny's calculated acts. Becasue he stood to earn nothing until Manny signed a new deal. Boras thought that given his age and his status as one of the best hitters in the game and dispite his reputation, he could and would command a 5 year 125M dollar deal on the open market...Then he was named as one of those on the list of 104 that tested positive for steriods and still the idiot (savant?) kept up that practice and was outed in LA and again this year with Tampa...I would say in hindsight spinning Manny for Bay was a stroke of genius...

    It took a lot of guts to make the Nomar trade. But in a way I think Theo thought after the success of that move that he could do no wrong. He made a lot of moves that seemed unconventional (most teams re-sign Damon, Theo lets him walk and predicts Coco to eventually equal his productive) that didn't work out. But again, it's the odd hypocrisy where he seemed so hesitant to spend money in some areas but so willing to spend it in others. But like you said, he under-valued his own players.

    Moving Nomar served to clear the air in the Sox Clubhouse. His relantionship with the press and the sox management had eroded to the point where his being in the lockeroom was seen as a distraction...What ultimately force the Sox hands was that they felt they couldn't count on him to play SS everyday...I wouldn't charaterize Cabrera as a less than replacement and Mientkevitz (spelling?) was also a great addition as a lefthanded bat oof the bench and a late innings defensive replacement...remember we had Kevin "hands of stone" Millar playing first with Ortiz as his backup nither of whom was exactly John Olerud...

    In terms of his assigning values to pending free agents...That comes from Henry more so than Epstein...make no mistake they see the draft picks as money in the bank...basically a two for one proposition...

    All that being said, my take is that Epstein was a valuable part of the overall success of the team. Like all managers he get too much credit for successes and shoulders the blame when things go wrong. Cleary Epstein proved that he's a very competent General Manger and up to the task of running a major league organization...otherwise the Cub's don't hire him to run their baseball operations nor does John Henry, Werner and Luccino entrust him with running the Red Sox...time will tell if the pupil has surpassed the teacher...

    Although the last few years have yeilded spotty results...What can never be taken lightly is that from 2003 to 2008 with Epstein playing a key role the Red Sox in that six year run played in 4 ALCS and won 2 World Series...Impressive by any standard...

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    grady little?
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know.:
    [QUOTE]grady little?
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]

    The guy who replaced Jimy Williams and Kerrigan...and helped to change the Sox clubhouse culture in less than one season...which is always lost on his detractors for leaving Pedro in too long...
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from greenapplesplatters. Show greenapplesplatters's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know. : Red Sox don't win the 2004 World Series without Manny, who happened to be the MVP of the World Series. Theo had NOTHING to do with Manny being here. Who pitched the Red Sox home to the 1st title in 86 years? Derek Lowe and Pedro. Two more Duquette players. Theo was more ZERO than hero.
    Posted by OurMan[/QUOTE]


    I agree. There's gonna be a lot of ballwashing for Theo as he leaves, but when history is written (and history always gets it right) it'll rate Theo as a poor GM. He received a lot more credit than he deserved for things he had nothing to do with, while running up an unprecedented streak of diastrous FA signings--which are responsible for the team being in the state it's currently in. And despite what people WANT to say, his farm system has never been all it's cracked up to be. His biggest asset is that he's been tremendously lucky, and that never hurts. But as we all know, luck, eventually runs out--as we've seen the last three years. 

    The Cubs have bought themselves nothing but a lot of hope, and eventaully a whole lot of trouble. I read Theo has complete autonomy, and is free and clear to do anything he likes. Boy will they be sorry. But hey, he's outta here, as they say, and that's all that matters. Theo's leaving is the best thing that's happened to the Sox since the 07 WSC. Good riddance. 

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know. : I agree. There's gonna be a lot of ballwashing for Theo as he leaves, but when history is written (and history always gets it right) it'll rate Theo as a poor GM. He received a lot more credit than he deserved for things he had nothing to do with, while running up an unprecedented streak of diastrous FA signings--which are responsible for the team being in the state it's currently in. And despite what people WANT to say, his farm system has never been all it's cracked up to be. His biggest asset is that he's been tremendously lucky, and that never hurts. But as we all know, luck, eventually runs out--as we've seen the last three years.  The Cubs have bought themselves nothing but a lot of hope, and eventaully a whole lot of trouble. I read Theo has complete autonomy, and is free and clear to do anything he likes. Boy will they be sorry. But hey, he's outta here, as they say, and that's all that matters. Theo's leaving is the best thing that's happened to the Sox since the 07 WSC. Good riddance. 
    Posted by greenapplesplatters[/QUOTE]

    Lester, Youkilis, Buccholz, Ellsbury, Pedrioa, Lowrie, Papelbon, Bard, Masterson, Murphy...all were drafted and/or developt under Epstein tenure...All have played key roles in the teams successes or are today on major league rosters with Masterson being the key piece in the aquision of Victor Martinez...Not to mention that last year we aquired Adrain Gonzalez with "prospects drafted by Epstein...

    I don't share your opin of him, but it's your to have...What we may agree on is that he might get to much credit for the teams successes. Of which he played a large role...He deserves credit for doing his part but he was one of many that played key roles...
     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from OurMan. Show OurMan's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know. : You know, these kind of threads are actually very stupid. Yes, Manny came here because of Duquette.  Ditto Lowe and Pedro.  The problem with your logic is, if Manny, Pedro, Lowe and Duquette were all that was needed to win a championship, why didn't they win one before 2003?
    Posted by notin[/QUOTE]

    Two words: Grady Little.

    Everybody knows the 2003 Red Sox were right there on the verge.
    Guess who gave up the Moonshot home run to Aaron Boone?

    Wakefield.

    Do we really need to rehash this?

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from tjgalvin. Show tjgalvin's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    Lester, Youkilis, Buccholz, Ellsbury, Pedrioa, Lowrie, Papelbon, Bard, Masterson, Murphy...all were drafted and/or developt under Epstein tenure...All have played key roles in the teams successes or are today on major league rosters with Masterson being the key piece in the aquision of Victor Martinez...Not to mention that last year we aquired Adrain Gonzalez with "prospects drafted by Epstein...


    Lester ? what has he done />? Youkilis? He is so over rated.  Cancer in the clubhouse this year.  Buccholz?  hmmm my back hurts, Lowrie? Bard? Choked down the stretch.  Masterson? Cleveland pitcher. Murphy? Texas
    Epstein is the self proclaimed boy wonder. Glad to see him go.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from OurMan. Show OurMan's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    I'm with tjgalvin on this one.

    Self-proclaimed Boy Wonder...that's Theo Epstein to a T.
    Good riddance. We need a GM who puts the Red Sox fans first, not HIMSELF.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from huffdaddy. Show huffdaddy's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    I give Duquette as much if not more credit as Theo for the continued success of Sox in 2000's.  He created the nucleus.  One big difference was that Duke's ownership/organization would not spend to get the 1A starter like Schill needed to complement Pedro and other starters and get them over the top. 

    Another difference was Duquette was not PR-savvy, and Theo is.  Duquette was a bit Belichickian, all-business and introverted to press, which hated him for that.  Theo is press-friendly and PR conscious, which has served him well in promoting his "genius" and downplaying some awful moves, esp. in recent years.  Heck, Verducci was writing love notes to him in SI this Fall while his team was going down in flames.  Pals with press dean Gammons.

    Varitek was a key to all of this from steady hand on pitching staff to glove in A-Rod's face.  His waning influence is telling.  Theo has been unable to produce a catcher in his tenure.  Unless you count giving away Masterson for V-Mart, and then giving away V-Mart.  I'm not sold on Salty.

    Theo overall has been solid GM with great value moves for Ortiz, Mueller, Millar, Roberts, and good college player selection, but did he leave a better team/system than the one he inherited from Duquette?

    Beantowne:  Lester was a Mike Port draftee, Youkilis was Duquette.  Lowrie?  Not sure you count that as success.  Masterson and Murphy are good choices, but then he gives them away for nothing, so I'm not sure what to make of that in praising him.
     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rutland76. Show Rutland76's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    Theo is gone. Do a Google search on the Red Sox ( both present and historical) and try to find some new material for discussion. Red Sox Nation interests shouldn't revolve around Theo, Tito, and Drew.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know. : Manny is another guy who doesn't get enough love from Red Sox nation I think. Bill-806 slanders him all over the board, but I'll always remember that coke bottle shot he hit off the Angels in 2007. In his interview after the game he said "I'm a bad man." He was definitely Duke's best free agent signing.
    Posted by carnie[/QUOTE]

    I agree with you about Manny.   He was a big part of winning the World Series and  I don't understand how Red Sox fans don't like him.  I will always remember what Manny did for the Red Sox. 
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from OurMan. Show OurMan's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Theo, again, I know. : I agree with you about Manny.   He was a big part of winning the World Series and  I don't understand how Red Sox fans don't like him.  I will always remember what Manny did for the Red Sox. 
    Posted by susan250[/QUOTE]

    I know why Red Sox fans don't like Manny...because Theo Epstein cranked up the media attack machine to run him out of Boston. Ask Mike Lowell, Curt Schilling, Johnny Damon and Jason Bay for starters what it feels like when Theo decides to get rid of you and destroys your reputation in the process.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rutland76. Show Rutland76's posts

    Re: Theo, again, I know.

    Thread dug up again from page #3 after being idle for 13 hours. Revived by Theo-hater named Law / Ourman. No surprise here. The "Theo Chicks" want the argument to stop and the troll wants to prolong it.
     
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