Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

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    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    Thread dug out from page #3 after no action on it 19 hours. Revived by Law / Ourman.
     
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    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.:
    [QUOTE]Thread dug out from page #3 after no action on it 19 hours. Revived by Law / Ourman.
    Posted by Rutland76[/QUOTE]

    Wah...I gonna go tell!
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from OurMan. Show OurMan's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did. : Wah...I gonna go tell!
    Posted by OurMan[/QUOTE]
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    I have not seen one poster "pine" for Theo or Tito.... not one.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    These anti-Theo people are far, far more obsessed with him than any of the fans who liked Epstein.

    I guess we have all moved on to Cherington, because we don't get worked up about it.  We realize that the reality is the players play the game, not the GMs these fruit bats obsess over...
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from YOUKILLUS20. Show YOUKILLUS20's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

     Here's where the choice has to be made; first was the "No Manny- no rings" nonsense, yet Manny was good for one year after leaving and that's it, to think that Manny would have made the difference in 2009 is stretching it, to suggest anything further is CRAZY. Then you have the Theo bashing, but wait, he perfectly timed the deportation of Manny, the critical player for success,so that was brilliant! So he can't have it both ways...Man, you gotta decide, No Manny no rings, or No Theo No rings, which is it?
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    And really, it's hard to give Manny all the credit anyway.  2007 was the worst year of his career at the time, yet the Sox won it all.  However, they did not win it all during several seasons when he as far more productive.  So how could it all be Manny?
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Goofywocky. Show Goofywocky's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    Theo was like any earlier, I have a hunch, red sox manager...can you name that "I gotta hunch red sox manager"?
     
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    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.:
    [QUOTE]And really, it's hard to give Manny all the credit anyway.  2007 was the worst year of his career at the time, yet the Sox won it all.  However, they did not win it all during several seasons when he as far more productive.  So how could it all be Manny?
    Posted by notin[/QUOTE]
     
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    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.:
    [QUOTE]And really, it's hard to give Manny all the credit anyway.  2007 was the worst year of his career at the time, yet the Sox won it all.  However, they did not win it all during several seasons when he as far more productive.  So how could it all be Manny?
    Posted by notin[/QUOTE]
    Mo, I think what was happening was that selig was secretly allowing all these guys to download from the roids to avoid a roid media disaster, purely financial to restore all the hype from the HR roid boys and hurlers built up from the 90's and continuing into the 00's. Manny was one of the them, certainly.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    Here's where the choice has to be made; first was the "No Manny- no rings" nonsense, yet Manny was good for one year after leaving and that's it, to think that Manny would have made the difference in 2009 is stretching it, to suggest anything further is CRAZY. ... (Youk)

    And really, it's hard to give Manny all the credit anyway.  2007 was the worst year of his career at the time, yet the Sox won it all.  However, they did not win it all during several seasons when he as far more productive.  So how could it all be Manny? (notin)

    I was the author of the "No Manny- No Rings" thread as well as the "No Papi- No Rings" and "No VTek- No Rings" threads. From the very first page the statements were misunderstood, and hundreds of pages later until today nothing has changed. Saying "No Manny-No Rings" is not saying he was soley responsible for the Rings. It simply meant, we could not have won both rings without him (or Papi or VTek, the only two other significant players on both the 2004 and 2007 teams). It also did not imply that we could never win again, because he was traded. I'm not going to speculate that we would have or would not have won in 2009 had Manny hit like he did with LA after the deal: it's just way too much conjecture.

    While Manny's 2007 season was not great, he did a lot of little things in the playoffs that were crucial to our success (many were BBs -some with 2 outs- that set up  Papi's big hits).

    I realize the argument could be made that with the $20M spent on Manny, had we not had him, we may have spent wisely and still won, but that too is conjecture. The fact remains, we could not have won both rings without Manny, Papi or VTek.

    That thread also attracted law and the whole "Pink Hat" rant. I used the term "Theo apologists" throughout the thread as well, and I still think Theo mishandled the "Manny situation" almost from day one. Near continous leaking of information to the media was not helpful in getting the most and best out of one of our most important players. I know Manny brought most of it all on himself, and I later apologized for my defensing of Manny - the person so strongly over those 1 1/2 to 2 years. He was a cheat and added a perception that our rings are tainted.

    The trade for J.Bay was a good deal, and we now have prospects for losing Bay, so the return is still in progress.

    I had issues with Theo, but still liked him. He had made some serious mistakes recently, and I understand why he left to seek a more powerful position. Overall, I think he did more positive than negative, but I can not say I am sorry to see him go.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Soxdog67. Show Soxdog67's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.:
    [QUOTE]I have not seen one poster "pine" for Theo or Tito.... not one.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    There's a simple reason for that Burrito...IT WAS TIME...

    ...for both to just move on and let someone else straighten out the ship. Some fresh faces and ideas are what the organization needs now...if they choose the right manager.


     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.:
    [QUOTE]I have not seen one poster "pine" for Theo or Tito.... not one.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

     The forum was the same before and after Theo left. Many said that he was an above average GM but was also human and made mistakes especially in the last few years ( using hindsight). He gets high marks prior to that. The Theo apologists never made the claim that he was perfect. On the other hand the Theo bashers claimed that he was wrong and inept 100% of the time. That group was just trolling however since nobody can really be that stupid.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.:
    [QUOTE]Here's where the choice has to be made; first was the "No Manny- no rings" nonsense, yet Manny was good for one year after leaving and that's it, to think that Manny would have made the difference in 2009 is stretching it, to suggest anything further is CRAZY. ... (Youk) And really, it's hard to give Manny all the credit anyway.  2007 was the worst year of his career at the time, yet the Sox won it all.  However, they did not win it all during several seasons when he as far more productive.  So how could it all be Manny? (notin) I was the author of the "No Manny- No Rings" thread as well as the "No Papi- No Rings" and "No VTek- No Rings" threads. From the very first page the statements were misunderstood, and hundreds of pages later until today nothing has changed. Saying "No Manny-No Rings" is not saying he was soley responsible for the Rings. It simply meant, we could not have won both rings without him (or Papi or VTek, the only two other significant players on both the 2004 and 2007 teams). It also did not imply that we could never win again, because he was traded. I'm not going to speculate that we would have or would not have won in 2009 had Manny hit like he did with LA after the deal: it's just way too much conjecture. While Manny's 2007 season was not great, he did a lot of little things in the playoffs that were crucial to our success (many were BBs -some with 2 outs- that set up  Papi's big hits). I realize the argument could be made that with the $20M spent on Manny, had we not had him, we may have spent wisely and still won, but that too is conjecture. The fact remains, we could not have won both rings without Manny, Papi or VTek. That thread also attracted law and the whole "Pink Hat" rant. I used the term "Theo apologists" throughout the thread as well, and I still think Theo mishandled the "Manny situation" almost from day one. Near continous leaking of information to the media was not helpful in getting the most and best out of one of our most important players. I know Manny brought most of it all on himself, and I later apologized for my defensing of Manny - the person so strongly over those 1 1/2 to 2 years. He was a cheat and added a perception that our rings are tainted. The trade for J.Bay was a good deal, and we now have prospects for losing Bay, so the return is still in progress. I had issues with Theo, but still liked him. He had made some serious mistakes recently, and I understand why he left to seek a more powerful position. Overall, I think he did more positive than negative, but I can not say I am sorry to see him go.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]


    There was no need for that thread " No Manny, No Rings". Like you said other players were also instrumental in getting the Rings but that is not how the title of the thread was presented and perceived. If the thread was titled "No Manny, Tek, Papi, Etc., No Rings" then nobody would have responded to it since it was an obvious fact that it was a team effort. Such threads are non-controversial and don't last long.

    By the way Manny apologized to the Boston fans, on his last trip to Fenway, for his actions that priompted the trade. He did not want to play for the two option years at $20 mil. per yr. ( violating a signed contract) and wanted to renegotiate for higher pay. He wanted the options torn up, had a tantrum when he couldn't get his own way, and forced a trade by pretending to be injured, refusing to play, and intentionally playing poorly.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    There was no need for that thread " No Manny, No Rings". Like you said other players were also instrumental in getting the Rings but that is not how the title of the thread was presented and perceived. If the thread was titled "No Manny, Tek, Papi, Etc., No Rings" then nobody would have responded to it since it was an obvious fact that it was a team effort. Such threads are non-controversial and don't last long.

    There was a need. At the time, there were countless revisionist posters downplaying Manny's role in our winning 2 rings. 

    I can't help it if people misread the meaning of the thread title. I explained my meaning on page 2 and several times afterwards, but many posters thought it meant Manny was the most important part of the team at the exclusion of all others: it did not and never meant that. It wasn't meant to stir contoversy. I am not that type of poster. I posted what I thought needed to be said, and hundreds of pages later and years later, it is still being misunderstood. Many players were essential to us winning the rings, but only 3 were very essential to both rings: Papi, Manny, and VTek.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    In Response to Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.:
    [QUOTE]I've never read a more self-serving, arrogant "goodbye" in all my years.  Theo decided to grace all of us with an explanation (his explanation) for leaving. We didn't ask, we didn't care.  Goodbye Theo, we will be just fine. Better than fine.
    Posted by OurMan[/QUOTE]

    Theo left a guy in charge that had much more experience to begin with so lets give Ben a chance to turn this mess around.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    I agree. I think we should all give Ben our support and be positive.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    My recollection of it was that many were being critical of Manny as a personality or a team player due his despicable behavior. They were unable to seperate the man-child from the hitter. By failing to make that distinction and express it made you perceive that they were revising history. A few qualifiers in the OP of that thread or later on , could have advised posters to talk about Manny, the hitter and refrain from talking about Manny, the child. It's a no-brainer that Manny was a spectacular batter and was vital in helping to get the two Rings.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.:
    [QUOTE]I agree. I think we should all give Ben our support and be positive.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    moon, I have a good feeling about Ben.  He has been loyal to the franchise for a very long time and should do fine.  I think we all proved Theo had his High's and a great deal of bad over the years as well but two WC says a lot for a team most of us had never seen it from.

    We may be in better hands now than ever before.  This whole experienced I'm sure just made Ben think even more about what could or could not work for the club.
     
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    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.:
    [QUOTE]My recollection of it was that many were being critical of Manny as a personality or a team player due his despicable behavior. They were unable to seperate the man-child from the hitter. By failing to make that distinction and express it made you perceive that they were revising history. A few qualifiers in the OP of that thread or later on , could have advised posters to talk about Manny, the hitter and refrain from talking about Manny, the child. It's a no-brainer that Manny was a spectacular batter and was vital in helping to get the two Rings.
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

    The other 2 faults I argued with Manny revisionists about was the fact that many of his antics were harmless and may have actually lightened up a too serious clubhouse and team atmosphere. The incident with Youk was supported by several teammates as I recall.  I though Youk needed a "chill pill" as well. I feel Manny's laid-back approach to hitting is a better model of success that the serious-break your bat over your knee after a K method. Secondly, they never gave credit for Manny being a hard worker. The guy was often the first to arrive and the last to leave the weight room or gym.  In some ways he was a good role model to younger players, but those parts were swept under the rug, because of a few big transgressions.


     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    moon, I have a good feeling about Ben.  He has been loyal to the franchise for a very long time and should do fine.  I think we all proved Theo had his High's and a great deal of bad over the years as well but two WC says a lot for a team most of us had never seen it from.

    We may be in better hands now than ever before.  This whole experienced I'm sure just made Ben think even more about what could or could not work for the club.

    I also like the fact that perhaps Larry might have more pull now. I think he was a big part of some of the early more successful moves.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did. :  The forum was the same before and after Theo left. Many said that he was an above average GM but was also human and made mistakes especially in the last few years ( using hindsight). He gets high marks prior to that. The Theo apologists never made the claim that he was perfect. On the other hand the Theo bashers claimed that he was wrong and inept 100% of the time. That group was just trolling however since nobody can really be that stupid.
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

    I disagree.  I think they can...
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.:
    [QUOTE]There was no need for that thread " No Manny, No Rings". Like you said other players were also instrumental in getting the Rings but that is not how the title of the thread was presented and perceived. If the thread was titled "No Manny, Tek, Papi, Etc., No Rings" then nobody would have responded to it since it was an obvious fact that it was a team effort. Such threads are non-controversial and don't last long. There was a need. At the time, there were countless revisionist posters downplaying Manny's role in our winning 2 rings.  I can't help it if people misread the meaning of the thread title. I explained my meaning on page 2 and several times afterwards, but many posters thought it meant Manny was the most important part of the team at the exclusion of all others: it did not and never meant that. It wasn't meant to stir contoversy. I am not that type of poster. I posted what I thought needed to be said, and hundreds of pages later and years later, it is still being misunderstood. Many players were essential to us winning the rings, but only 3 were very essential to both rings: Papi, Manny, and VTek.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    When you win a WS, you can make a claim 'no xxx, no WS for about 20 guys'.

    Lowe stunk mostly, but won three clinchers.  Manny was 6th in WAR, so you have 5 more players in front of him.

    Remove the names, and what you have is a guy that was 7th in WAR with by far the highest salary on the team.  The only playoff series that was in doubt was the ALCS, and Manny had -0- RBIs.
     
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    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did. : So your thread evolved into a battle over Manny, the person, and you were defending him as a person? Why then did 23 out of 25 players vote to send him packing? Why then did Manny finally apologize to everyone on his final trip into Boston. Why was only one team , the Dodgers, interested in signing him? Now you admit that your thread was designed to be a pizzing contest between proponents of his behavior and those who found it to be despicable. I knew that it wasn't about his skills as a batter.
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

    The problem was that he broke his word.  That colored the fans' perception of his contributions.  This was all about him making $45M/2 from an insane LA GM rather than have to wait to see if the RS picked up 2 $20M options.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did. : The other 2 faults I argued with Manny revisionists about was the fact that many of his antics were harmless and may have actually lightened up a too serious clubhouse and team atmosphere. The incident with Youk was supported by several teammates as I recall.  I though Youk needed a "chill pill" as well. I feel Manny's laid-back approach to hitting is a better model of success that the serious-break your bat over your knee after a K method. Secondly, they never gave credit for Manny being a hard worker. The guy was often the first to arrive and the last to leave the weight room or gym.  In some ways he was a good role model to younger players, but those parts were swept under the rug, because of a few big transgressions.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    So your thread evolved into a battle over Manny, the person, and you were defending him as a person? Why then did 23 out of 25 players vote to send him packing? Why then did Manny finally apologize to everyone on his final trip into Boston. Why was only one team , the Dodgers, interested in signing him? Now you admit that your thread was designed to be a pizzing contest between proponents of his behavior and those who found it to be despicable. I knew that it wasn't about his skills as a batter.
     

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