Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.
posted at 11/5/2011 7:29 PM EDT
In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did. : When you win a WS, you can make a claim 'no xxx, no WS for about 20 guys'. Lowe stunk mostly, but won three clinchers. Manny was 6th in WAR, so you have 5 more players in front of him. Remove the names, and what you have is a guy that was 7th in WAR with by far the highest salary on the team. The only playoff series that was in doubt was the ALCS, and Manny had -0- RBIs.
Posted by Joebreidey[/QUOTE]
There were not 20 players that were as essential to us making the playoffs and winning a ring let alone both rings. There was an "s" on ring.
Joe, just because Manny had no RBIs in the 2004 series with the Yanks, does not mean he did not do some vital things to help us win. Cherry-picking one series as the be-all-end-all is not fair either. Without Manny (and a few others) , we don't get to that series anyway. Besides, let's have a closer look at that 2004 series...
Game 1: Down 8-5 man on 2B and 2 outs, Manny singles and Papi triples in 2 runs to make it a one run game. Manny makes an out: the inning is over.
Game 2: Down 3-1 in the 9th with 1 out: Manny doubles to give Papi and Millar a chance to tie. They both strike out and we lose.
Game 3: We get killed 19-7.
Game 4: The big turn around begins. Manny gets on base 5 out of 6 PAs. 5th inning, down 2-1, man on 1st and 2nd with 2 outs: Manny walks to load the bases. Papi singles in 2 to give us the lead. Manny makes out;the inning ends. 9th inning, 2 outs, man on 2nd and 3rd, Manny walks to load em up for Papi. We don't score and we go to extras... Manny singles in the 12th and Papi HRs. We win.
Game 5: Elimination game #2. Manny gets on base 3 of 7 times in 14 innings. 1st inning 1 out, one on, Manny singles Cabrera to 3rd. Papi singles in Orlando. Later, 2 walks brings in another run. No runs score without Manny's walk. 14th inning, 2 outs and one on: Manny walks Damon to 2B. Papi singles in Damon and we win. No Manny walk: no run scores. Maybe no win.
Game 6: Elination game #3. Manny goes 1 for 4 and we win 4-2 without Manny helping in any significant way.
Game 7: 1st inning sets the tone. Damon on 2B and 1 out. Manny singles, but Damon is thrown out at home. Papi homers in Manny and we are up 2-0. We never trail and win the game.
Yes, others may have been "bigger" in this series, but to bring up the 0 RBI stat is misleading and fails to tell the whole story.
Saying "No Manny- No Rings" does not mean...
He was MVP of every game.
He was the most important player.
He and only he was responsible for the ring(s).
We needed Manny in 2004 to win the ring.
We needed Manny in 2007 to win the ring.
We needed Manny, Papi and VTek to win both rings. Many others helped us win in 2004 OR 2007, but not both.
I posted the original thread as an answer to the many posters who tried to minimize Manny's accomplishments after the fact. The loved Manny in 2004 and 2007 and recognized his valuable input. When his antics became too much to handle, suddenly, many of these same posters now changed their tunes and acted like he was a minimal part of our success. It made it easier for them to deal with the Manny dilema. It made them feel cozier. I felt a strong need to keep things in perspective. No matter how many times I had to defend and explain the thread title, I stand by the very simple meaning that without Manny, we would not have a ring in 2004 or 2007. Sure, if we took the $20M and spent it wisely on other players, we may have still won, but that is not the point. My point was that if Manny was not there, we don't win both rings. It really should not have been a "controversial" thread. It wasn't meant to be and should not have been. The fact that so many posters went ape over it, in fact proved that there were many many posters who wanted to totally or partially erase Manny from Red Sox history.