Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!

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    Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!

    In Response to Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!:
    [QUOTE]You are missing the point of this garbage thread. The disturbed one draws a bigoted analogy of Oki to good ole' boy Hill, who the disturbed one blames for getting hurt. Perhaps I'll start a similar one where Theo blames Dice for his injury and orders Wake to "clean up the Dicey mess"...
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    I wasnt aware that a southie was considered a "good 'ol boy" ..more softy sense i guess
     
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    Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!

    In Response to Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!:
    [QUOTE]I still never understood why they tried to change the regimen of Dice-K.... its as if they paid all that money for a pro and then tried to turn him back into a youngster they could mold into one of their own. Makes zero sense.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    there are many differences in the game between US and Japan.. That and the fact that he threw a ton of pitches already and they(Boston) would like his arm to not fall off before the contract is up..Because Dice-K was so defiant towards the team that made him very rich, he's now done until 2013 and will have to come back on a 1-year deal in the US to prove himself or (my opinion) he will just fade into the sunset in Japan. Its Dice-K's fault for NOT listening to his employer and adjusting to a differnt game with better hitters. I wish him luck in the future and if he still wants to pitch in the US, a much better attitude..Good to see Hottovy get the call instead of Oki...
     
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    Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!

    Any Japanese player who doesn't cross off the Red Sox, immediately, should be ready for ultimate fan abuse. Ortiz knows a thing or two about it.

    I didn't realize that Ortiz was Japanese. Did any of you?
     
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    Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!

    Bottom line, DiceK was an integral part of the division title in 2007 and he pitched well again in 2008.

    ..and we now find ourselves playing the 2011 baseball season. It appears that the writer's favorite player is far removed from being an "integral part" of anything productive.

    Didn't I state a few weeks ago that Dice-K was heading toward Tommy John surgery and the originator of the highlighted comment basically called me out as a fool lacking any knowledge with regards to the subject matter? It's unfortunate that based on numerous reports that were circulating, I called this correctly.

    Commenting that Dice-K's career with the Sox was likely over due to the injury some how resulted in me being labled a racist!

    Who's the fool now? Fortunately, I don't feel the need to start numerous "long winded" threads every time that I am proven correct here, unlike another individual that shall remain nameless.
     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!

    Yuka Okajima
     
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    Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!

    holy smoke! what a doll!!!!!
     
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    Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!

    In Response to Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order! : there are many differences in the game between US and Japan.. That and the fact that he threw a ton of pitches already and they(Boston) would like his arm to not fall off before the contract is up..Because Dice-K was so defiant towards the team that made him very rich, he's now done until 2013 and will have to come back on a 1-year deal in the US to prove himself or (my opinion) he will just fade into the sunset in Japan. Its Dice-K's fault for NOT listening to his employer and adjusting to a different game with better hitters. I wish him luck in the future and if he still wants to pitch in the US, a much better attitude..Good to see Hottovy get the call instead of Oki...
    Posted by southpaw777[/QUOTE]I am not sure when what is now called defiance became accepted as fact. As far as I know the pitcher pretty much did whatever the RS told him to. He didn't agree with all of it and that came to light while he was on the DL in 2009 and he gave an interview to a Japanese writer.

    But the RS wanted him not to do 90 minute long tosses, he stopped. He liked to stretch out and take his warm-ups from behind the mound before innings, they asked him to not do it and he did. They wanted to shorten his bullpens between starts and he did it.

    In 2009 they blamed his injury on poor conditioning prior to the season but he was the best pitcher in the WBC and by a wide margin. The reality is that is probably where he hurt himself. Many believe pitchers in the WBC pitch too many high leverage innings for the spring. He wasn't alone BTW. USA pitchers Peavy and Oswaly had bad 2009's and Peavy went under the knife last season for shoulder damage.

    To keep moving forward in 2010 and this year Dice K left Japan after the new year to work out in AZ to improve his lower body strength as the RS had asked.

    He may have argued, he may have complained to the media but for the greater part it appears he was not defiant. The whole topic got out of hand because Farrell lost his temper when Dice K questioned the RS tact in that interview and blasted back (dumb BTW, human but dumb).

    This guys elbow has probably had deteriorations for two plus seasons now. He pitched an unbelievable number of innings by 2009 for a 29 year old. The human body is not meant to throw a baseball that hard, that often. There doesn't have to a protagonist and an antagonist in this story. Sometimes it just happens, just like Matt Clement tearing his shoulder at the rotor cuff and labrum. Or Schilling tearing his labrum. Or Pedro. Or a ton of guys before and since Tommy John who has had a procedure to fix elbow tears named after him.

     
     
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    Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!

    In Response to Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!:
    [QUOTE]The mess is Hill, a reclaimation project, breaking down like a balsa airplane! There was no way Hill was going to do anything but break down, taped up and throwing the ball in a terrible motion. He was a local guy who made most Red Sox fans feel good about him for a short period of time. Politics is why he was given a chance in Boston, as he was not in good enough physical condition on stamina for any other team to invest time in him.  Despite the popularity meter, Hill is a loser. Oki is and will always be a proven winner.   I would like for each poster on here to list the game log of Oki since he returned from the DL in 2010. The reason he wasn't claimed is that other teams are waiting it out so that the Red Sox get stuck paying a large part of the freight. Despite the arrogance and bigotry of 5K, Oki understands the rules because he has an agent. He is letting the Red Sox know he's had enough of the jerking around and wants to be traded. Theo is using the leverage of Oki not having 5 years of MLB service, and putting him in the proverbial outhouse. Oki made a terrible mistake in signing with the Red Sox. Any Japanese player that signs with the Red Sox is out of their minds! I seriously doubt any top Japanese player will be signing with the Red Sox anytime in the future. Both of these players did more for Red Sox championships than Tim Wastefield did in his entire career! Mike Lowell complained and carped and was allowed to squat on the roster and was given a "Day of Honor". What a joke! The media and most Red Sox fans are captiously jeering as these Japanese players are put in the outhouse. I guarantee you there will be no "Day of Honor" for DiceK or Oki!!!!!!!!! I'll always be a Red Sox fan, but I'm no fan of most Red Sox fans!!
    Posted by SoxSoldRed[/QUOTE]

    Sold Red.....

    You are EXACTLY like those FAR LEFT liberals (not your average liberal - who are my close & respected friends) who ALWAYS bash / blame America first!  The IRONY???  I think you lean FAR Right politically???  It's just that you are too ideological to realize that both EXTREMES are equally marginalized!  You speak to NO SANE individual or group.  NOBODY's really listening!

    YOU can ALWAYS be counted on to bash the Red Sox first!  You consistently take the anti Red Sox position!  Whether you are talking about YOUR PERCEPTION that OUR front office & fans have a bias toward or against a particular player, or if YOU happen to manufacture a case against any number of Red Sox players, the theme is consistent.  YOU ARE CONSISTENTLY ANTI Red Sox.  

    True Red Sox fans could not give a rip about a guys race, which you are CLEARLY implying they do.  If a guy is performing, WE LOVE THEM!  If they're sucking wind, we tend to get down on them pretty quickly!  This has absolutely NOTHING to do with race, ethnicity, or national origin.  Any TRUE Red Sox fan who has been following this team CLEARLY understands that we just happen to have 2 Japanese pitchers who have gone south at the same time.  Dice-K of his own doing (World Classic, injury, obfuscation, & consistent dissembling............. END OF STORY), & Oki who enjoyed unbridled LOVE by the fans for quite some time, but unfortunately (like Dice-K) has been useless the past 2 years.

    The IRONY!!!!!!!   It seems clear that YOU, if anybody, tend to get down on players (irrationally) with racial overtones.  Ells., & Crawford immediately come to mind.  Perhaps I am mistaken, but it has been said & backed up, that you have made some disparaging comments about Ells. based on his race????  If I am incorrect, I certainly apologize!

    The thing that CLEARLY separates YOU from any TRUE Red Sox fan................
    YOU actually ROOT AGAINST OUR players!  YOU will go to any length to continue an argument against a particular player, irrespective of what that player is CLEARLY doing for the team at that time.  Once said player gets in YOUR crosshairs (generally based on EMOTION / BIAS / or how tight your panties are that day?) YOU will NEVER let up on the guy, no matter how ridiculous & emotional you look.  Only a very weak, insecure, or biased / bigoted? guy has such a hard time admitting when they are so clearly wrong....  You clearly "get off" on calling Ells "Bellsbury."  I have to wonder why?  Surely it has nothing to do with the free Taco thing back in 2007???  Only a very weak, immature, insecure, limp, biased, or phony fan would consistently bash OUR guys on such a subjective & emotional level????  "Pantywaist fan" is what immediately comes to mind when seeking to describe you!

    Only a Red Sox hater would try to resurrect LONG DEAD stereotypes of Red Sox / Boston fans with respect to race.  Red Sox fans ARE the best & most knowledgeable fans in the country!  WE value players based on merit without regard to race!  Do we develop emotional attachments based on performance, track records, hustle, grit, etc., as do ALL TEAM FANS????  Of course!

    YOU??????   You can always be counted on to RIP OUR TEAM!!!  NOBODY takes ANYTHING you have to say seriously!  Even when you make a halfway intelligible "baseball" observation...... NOBODY's listening :)  :)  :)   :)

    One thing you do have going for you????  It is fun kicking you around!  :) 

    Just as with your politics.......  YOU have marginalized yourself!  NOBODY take you seriously!   :)  :)  Keep up the good work  :)  :)  
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from law2009a. Show law2009a's posts

    Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!

    m
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoxSoldRed. Show SoxSoldRed's posts

    Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!

    No one has beem more useless than Tim Wastefield, the last two years. Mike Lowell was useless in 2010. In all your drivel you don't even have the capacity to inject a believable bugaboo.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!

    He basically said all you can do is bash. Your reply was to bash.
     
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    Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!

    In Response to Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order! : I am not sure when what is now called defiance became accepted as fact. As far as I know the pitcher pretty much did whatever the RS told him to. He didn't agree with all of it and that came to light while he was on the DL in 2009 and he gave an interview to a Japanese writer. But the RS wanted him not to do 90 minute long tosses, he stopped. He liked to stretch out and take his warm-ups from behind the mound before innings, they asked him to not do it and he did. They wanted to shorten his bullpens between starts and he did it. In 2009 they blamed his injury on poor conditioning prior to the season but he was the best pitcher in the WBC and by a wide margin. The reality is that is probably where he hurt himself. Many believe pitchers in the WBC pitch too many high leverage innings for the spring. He wasn't alone BTW. USA pitchers Peavy and Oswaly had bad 2009's and Peavy went under the knife last season for shoulder damage. To keep moving forward in 2010 and this year Dice K left Japan after the new year to work out in AZ to improve his lower body strength as the RS had asked. He may have argued, he may have complained to the media but for the greater part it appears he was not defiant. The whole topic got out of hand because Farrell lost his temper when Dice K questioned the RS tact in that interview and blasted back (dumb BTW, human but dumb). This guys elbow has probably had deteriorations for two plus seasons now. He pitched an unbelievable number of innings by 2009 for a 29 year old. The human body is not meant to throw a baseball that hard, that often. There doesn't have to a protagonist and an antagonist in this story. Sometimes it just happens, just like Matt Clement tearing his shoulder at the rotor cuff and labrum. Or Schilling tearing his labrum. Or Pedro. Or a ton of guys before and since Tommy John who has had a procedure to fix elbow tears named after him.  
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    Oh, give me a break, Katz. You have a way of making manure smell like a rose garden. Why don't you just follow the lineage of Dice/RedSox from inception.

    The early DL's were primarily because of a weak shoulder. He was never on board with the shoulder strengthening exercises. He admitted it! He's been on the DL every year. Most of it can be traced to his shoulder. In the WBC, he amped it up early. 14 frames. Later he admitted to not following the shoulder program the previous winter.

    You keep talking about all his IP by age 29. Let's see some figures.
    Over the last 5 seasons, he's thrown a whopping 622 frames.
    Only threw 200 once.

    In Japan, they pitch once a week. They face lesser and use smaller baseballs.
    He pitched a lot in high-school. Was he hurt in high-school? after high-school?

    You want a list of pitchers who have not have serious injury by age 29?
    Who is the last RedSox MAJOR LEAGUE pitcher to have Tommy John Surgery?
    The RedSox are considered to have among the best training regime in the game. In fact, it was why Penny signed on. And he feels it gave him longevity.
    Elbow injuries can easily result form compensating for other physical issues - like a weak shoulder.

    Even Gammons said "They allowed him to do everything he wanted to do at first, and it wasn't working".

    Dice-K never really left Japan.
     
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    Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!

    My favorite part of this entire thread was Softy twisting himself into an Internet pretzel trying to explain why the fact that no team picked Oki up was actually a counter-intuitively powerful indication of his baseball value. 
     
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    Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!

    I'm trying to envision an internet pretzel...
     
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    Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!

    Hey for what is worth Harness the RS have not had anybody else get TJ until Hill gets his but what that has to do with this player is beyond me.

    It is probably not worth discussion. Yeah they pitch with an extra days rest for most of their starts because they use a six man rotation. They also have their pitchers throw a lot more pitches. And yes it does matter how much he threw in high school, how much players throw in their developing years will have a direct impact on their health later in their careers. It is why there are rules for how much guys work in the minors in MLB and in recent times LL and HS pitchers are used with firm "rules of engagement". Also he had been playing at the highest level in his country at the age of 19.

    Yes the RS have received high marks for their shoulder program, though it is not miraculous by any means, as witnessed by Curt Schilling. Trying to frame the conversation as MLB TJ surgeries only is kind of selective, is it not? Since the Farrell era and the shoulder regimen, how many starters have the RS had for very long? Dice K, Beckett and Wakefield have been constants, Lester was called up in 2007 for good. Schilling's shoulder gave out after 2007 and the rest were old guys and Buch. And the program doesn't start when you are called up. If guys in the minors are getting TJ, it is the RS organization.

    At any rate try doing this to your elbow a few million times and then call Dr. Yocum...









     
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    Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!

    I have Katz.

    Still waiting for the numbers of IP in Japan.

    Hill wasn't with the organization very long.
    Taz went from industrial league to AA. Again a reflection of Japanese training.

    This regime has a remarkable record of pitchers avoiding TJ surgery.
    Paps developed a weak shoulder years back and went on the program. Now he's primed for a huge contract - endurance of this magnitude is not the norm for closers.

    You really should back up UR take in better fashion. The Dice/RedSox history runs contrary to UR take. You call out Farrell for something that was on Dice. Tell me, who has a history of being a whining baby to the press? Dice or Farrell?

    Arm injuries aren't rocket science, Katz. Pitchers are taught, even at low levels, about their bodies and the toll pitching takes. It is explained in great detail how UR motion affects your back/shoulder/below/forearm.

    Specific training is geared to strengthen areas that are susceptible.
    Dice had a partial tear. He did not have this tear until just prior to his last start. Otherwise, it would have been detected in velocity. Dice was throwing his usual 92-93 MPH until his last start. He topped out at 88.

    I believe he had an area of weakness that was susceptible to a tear.
    An area is weak because it isn't strong.  DUH! Thousands of pitchers don't have TJ surgery by age 30. It's like taking a mild-mannered businessman and throwing him into the rigors of boot camp. Can he deal with the physical/emotional ordeal?

    A person has to be properly trained to deal with his environment. And even then, there's no guarantees. But UR chances are much greater if you adhere to tried and true training regime.

    Pitching in high-school means facing a limited talent level. If his experience was detrimental, it would have shown up long before age 26.
    ML pitching requires greater stress than pitching "at the highest level" in Japan, for reasons already acknowledged. If he'd made the necessary commitment to team as he did to the money, there's every chance he would have lasted more than 622 innings in his prime.

    Schilling lasted 3261 innings.

    1) He never committed his family once he signed the 6-year deal.
    2) He never made a true effort to learn the language or the customs.
    3) He never got on board with ML pitching approach.
    4) He never bought into proven team training regime.

    Dice was his own training and pitching coach. He always knew best, right?
    Why on earth would you expect him to be fully committed to team when he wasn't anywhere else?

    I thought it interesting in last night's walk-off that everybody was jumping up and down and slapping helmets. Everybody but Dice, who jogged through the whole process.
     
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    Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!

    To be fair, Katz. I think a lot of this was on the team. They treated this guy like the Prince of Whales.
    Right down to the manicurist.
    The perks were insane.

    Had they put their foot down from day one, this whole shebang might have ended differently. We disagree on what might have caused his condition. I think his best chance was to follow and adhere to team protocol and be more assessable to being coached.

    Let's just say it was likely a combo of that and 11 years of mileage. That's probably closer to the truth anyway.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!

    You are all over the place my friend. The level of competition in high school by example has very little do with the damage that repetitive motion from a violent and unnatural act will have over time.

    Yes thousands don't have TJ surgery by the time they are 30 but plenty do, the guy the surgery is named after had it at 31. And you dismiss the mileage that Dice K came to America with and then bring up about Taz.

    And from my first post you just ignored the problems that self interested Oswalt and Peavy had both of them also having played for their country in the WBC and one needed surgery just last year.

    There is only opinion's here and those who choose to believe that this is all the pitcher's fault there is no way to change that viewpoint. 

    As far as Farrell, let me explain what I called him out about, if that it was what you wish to call it. There is no doubt that Matsuzaka spoke first to the Japanesse media. Whether he thought it wouldn't be world news or did not care, it was wrong to speak out of school. I don't know that makes up a history of whining but he did "throw the first stone" and it was wrong.

    But Farrell going public with his frustration was equally wrong. He is supposed to be management, a leader and in that role it should have been dealt with not in the media but with the player directly. My dad always used to say two wrongs don't make a right.

     
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    Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!

    True. Two wrongs don't make a right. But it's not so easy to follow that practice sometimes. Dice leaked many a story to the press. This one was the last straw. No way in hell RedSox officials could remain silent after that tone. Farrell took it personally as he should have. It was a poor reflection on him.

    Let's just suppose he knows more about Dice than we can possibly imagine. As Gammons said, Dice could be maddening. If someone finally goes overboard like that, he has to expect retribution. And if the team put their foot down back in 2007, when there was conflict surrounding effectiveness due to questionable training and pitching approach, that episode might have been avoided. The whole injury might have been avoided.

    To draw an awkward analogy, killing is wrong. But in war, it's legal. And it's survival. That doesn't mean it's right.

    Oswald/Peavy did not pitch for Boston. They are being trained by a different organization. This might have had something to do with their physical issues.
    Don't underestimate the power of training or coaching, my friend.
     
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    Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!

    Don't over estimate it either. The RS in recent years have had to use a ton of pitchers every year. Pitchers have left and been more successful elsewhere. The organization is good but the "smartest guys in the room" thing sometimes becomes urban legend.

    Any way an interesting take today from Nick Carfado in the Globe:

    Switch hurt Matsuzaka What happened with the Red Sox and Daisuke Matsuzaka? If I were John Henry, I’d expect a much better pitcher for $103 million.

    Some believe the Sox tried to “Americanize’’ him too much and should have allowed him to pitch on his own terms. That was a view expressed by ESPN analyst Bobby Valentine in this space a few weeks back.

    Valentine, who managed Chiba Lotte for six seasons when Matsuzaka was the prominent pitcher in Japan, tried to temper the exuberance about Matsuzaka when the Sox signed him. He knew Matsuzaka was a good pitcher, but he also knew the adaptation from Japan to Boston was not without peril.

    The Sox cut back his pitch count and were hung up on him not getting deep into counts, but that’s precisely the way he pitched in Japan — successfully.

    Valentine said he never had a pitcher with an arm injury in Japan because they were allowed to throw a lot and build up arm strength. Here, they’re told to limit their activity.

    At one point, the Sox decided that Matsuzaka would not throw his long toss on the same day as his side session. Too much, they said. He no longer threw 200-pitch bullpens, either.

    Did Matsuzaka blow out his elbow because he had so much wear and tear or because he wasn’t able to strengthen it by throwing more? Orthopedists in the States will say he threw too much. In Japan, they’ll say he didn’t throw enough. The old-timers will bring up Luis Tiant and Tom Seaver and Nolan Ryan, guys who threw a lot of pitches.

    Valentine said if he had managed Matsuzaka, he would have left him alone and allowed him to pitch and prepare just as he did in Japan.

    Matsuzaka has been tough to deal with, keeps to himself, and very rarely attempts to integrate with his teammates. It was never a good fit. The lesson seems to be that if you’re going to invest in a Japanese pitcher, let him do what made him successful.


     
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    Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!

    A toughtful piece.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoxSoldRed. Show SoxSoldRed's posts

    Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!

    He wasn't picked up because teams know they can get him and have Theo pay the bill. Which is what is getting ready to happen.
     
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    Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!

    Katz: you keep forgetting that pitching in Japan and pitching in the majors can be like day and night. Valentine doesn't have an on-field job for a reason.
    But I would agree with him if pitching in the states was similar to Japan.


    IT   IS   NOT.

    The Redsox let him do his thing early on. They didn't want to change anything since it was effective in Japan. It didn't work. As I said before but you aren't acknowledging: ML hitters weren't biting on all those off-speed pitches darting out of the zone. He went on the DL as early as 2007 with shoulder issues.
    They tested it and it was weak. That was the start of everything.

    If a pitcher or a hitter is successful in AA, but has trouble adjusting to AAA competition, do you let him do the same things that made him successful in AA?
    At the higher levels, constant adjustments must be made.

    The jump from Japan to the ML's is great. Many challenges. Dice only partially committed to them. That was evident early on. He never made the adjustments necessary for consistency. Yeah, it's tough to deviate from what worked in another country. I was a pretty good hitter in high-school. Once I started facing some real competition beyond it, I was thankful to toe the rubber. The level of adjustment in either area was immense.

    What worked for Dice in Japan didn't work here anywhere near as well. Play the horses, Katz. And you'll see what a class differential can do.
     
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    Re: Theo to Oki: Clean Up Rich Hill's Mess, That's an Order!

    Wastefield hasn't been working for years. Maybe a change to muster based potato salad might help.
     
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