Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle
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Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle
posted at 10/26/2011 11:53 AM EDT
- Shtarka
- Posts: 193
- First: 4/19/2009
- Last: 2/25/2013
It came down to a power struggle between Theo and Lucchino. Lucchino ain't goin' nowhere, so he won and Theo left. There always was conflict between the two, and a significant redundancy. As Cherington said in his presser, Theo is a front office guy as is Lucchino. Cherington is more an on thefield talent evaluator guy. From this perspective, it makes sense for Theo to move on and Lucchino to fully assume leadership of baseball operations. Theo himself describes his relationship to Lucchino in his farewell/ mea culpa as "complicated". We all know what he really meant- Lucchino was a difficult guy to work under. -
Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle
posted at 10/26/2011 1:02 PM EDT
- ZILLAGOD
- Posts: 10444
- First: 5/30/2008
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So if things don't go well under Cherington, we now know we can point the finger squarely at Lucchino. -
Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle
posted at 10/26/2011 1:16 PM EDT
- fivekatz
- Posts: 5134
- First: 9/18/2009
- Last: 8/26/2012
There certainly is redundancy between what Theo will now be doing for the Cubs and what LL does for the RS. In Boston their roles weren't so much redundant as there was a lot of tension between these guys that dated back to a very tough contract negotiation between the two when Epstein's contract expired after the 2005 season.
It is a complex bit of history between these two that is hardly worth rehashing at this point. But one can make a case that when Epstein gained more autonomy after the 2005 season many of his moves with that increased power rank among his worst.
In the short term Zilla I don't know that the results of 2012 and 2013 will be too instructive either way.
Epstein leaves with the RS not having a ton of budget flexibility, proud owners of some serious sunk cost and the second highest contract ever award an OFer. The farm system is not barren but it is not deep in impact future all star players.
OTOH the core of the 25 roster is talented and offensively is very formidable. While the 7-20 and finish now define the team they were able to do that and start 2-10 (9-30) and still won 90 games.
The RS come back in 2012 and do great, Epstein's fans will say he left an awesome core, his detractors will credit Cherington and LL. If the RS are 7 games over .500 or worse, Theo's fans will say it was because he wasn't here, his detractors will say he left a mess. -
Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle
posted at 10/26/2011 1:20 PM EDT
- Rutland76
- Posts: 275
- First: 10/18/2011
- Last: 11/9/2011
True on what Katz said. My guess is the Theo forum battles will continue but will be instigated by the Theo haters. This has been the norm so why should it change? -
Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle
posted at 10/26/2011 2:04 PM EDT
- OurMan
- Posts: 339
- First: 10/19/2011
- Last: 11/3/2011
In Response to Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle:It came down to a power struggle between Theo and Lucchino. Lucchino ain't goin' nowhere, so he won and Theo left. There always was conflict between the two, and a significant redundancy. As Cherington said in his presser, Theo is a front office guy as is Lucchino. Cherington is more an on thefield talent evaluator guy. From this perspective, it makes sense for Theo to move on and Lucchino to fully assume leadership of baseball operations. Theo himself describes his relationship to Lucchino in his farewell/ mea culpa as "complicated". We all know what he really meant- Lucchino was a difficult guy to work under.
Posted by Shtarka
Uh...touchdown, army!
I've only been saying this since, well...2005? -
Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle
posted at 10/26/2011 2:06 PM EDT
- Rutland76
- Posts: 275
- First: 10/18/2011
- Last: 11/9/2011
In Response to Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle:True on what Katz said. My guess is the Theo forum battles will continue but will be instigated by the Theo haters. This has been the norm so why should it change?
Posted by Rutland76 -
Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle
posted at 10/26/2011 2:10 PM EDT
- OurMan
- Posts: 339
- First: 10/19/2011
- Last: 11/3/2011
In Response to Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle:But one can make a case that when Epstein gained more autonomy after the 2005 season many of his moves with that increased power rank among his worst.
Posted by fivekatz
I've been making that case since 2005.
And I was 100% correct each and every offseason, or as Theo Epstein likes to think of them...Hot Stove, cool jam sessions with Peter Gammons. -
Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle
posted at 10/26/2011 2:12 PM EDT
- Rutland76
- Posts: 275
- First: 10/18/2011
- Last: 11/9/2011
In Response to Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle:True on what Katz said. My guess is the Theo forum battles will continue but will be instigated by the Theo haters. This has been the norm so why should it change?
Posted by Rutland76 -
Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle
posted at 10/26/2011 2:15 PM EDT
- OurMan
- Posts: 339
- First: 10/19/2011
- Last: 11/3/2011
In Response to Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle:Theo himself describes his relationship to Lucchino in his farewell/ mea culpa as "complicated". We all know what he really meant- Lucchino was a difficult guy to work under.
Posted by Shtarka
Lucchino wanted Theo to ACTUALLY work.
Theo wanted to play air guitar in his office while Bill James and his band of cybergeeks played sabermetrics Dungeons & Dragons, or sneak off to Pearl Jam concerts while other AL teams were wheeling, dealing and lapping the Red Sox. -
Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle
posted at 10/26/2011 2:23 PM EDT
- Rutland76
- Posts: 275
- First: 10/18/2011
- Last: 11/9/2011
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Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle
posted at 10/26/2011 2:46 PM EDT
- OurMan
- Posts: 339
- First: 10/19/2011
- Last: 11/3/2011
Uh oh, we've got Ruland and the Theo Chick slideshow "What We Did On Vacation - 1981" going. -
Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle
posted at 10/26/2011 2:49 PM EDT
- Rutland76
- Posts: 275
- First: 10/18/2011
- Last: 11/9/2011
Les Paul or is it Less Paul??
Now the hacienda's dark, the town is sleeping,
Now the time has come to part, the time for weeping.
Via con Dios, my darling. Via con Dios, my love.
Now the village mission bells are softly ringing,
If you listen with your heart, you'll hear them singing.
Via con Dios, my darling. Via con dios, my love.
Wherever you may be, I'll be beside you,
Although you're many million dreams away.
Each night I'll say a prayer, a prayer to guide you,
To hasten every lonely hour of every lonely day.
Now the dawn is breaking through, a great tomorrow,
But the memories we share are there to borrow.
Via con Dios, my darling. Via con Dios, my love. -
Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle
posted at 10/26/2011 3:07 PM EDT
- OurMan
- Posts: 339
- First: 10/19/2011
- Last: 11/3/2011
Rutland, when it comes to you the answer is always LESS. -
Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle
posted at 10/26/2011 3:25 PM EDT
- Soxdog67
- Posts: 3327
- First: 6/2/2008
- Last: 6/14/2013
In Response to Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle:It came down to a power struggle between Theo and Lucchino. Lucchino ain't goin' nowhere, so he won and Theo left. There always was conflict between the two, and a significant redundancy. As Cherington said in his presser, Theo is a front office guy as is Lucchino. Cherington is more an on thefield talent evaluator guy. From this perspective, it makes sense for Theo to move on and Lucchino to fully assume leadership of baseball operations. Theo himself describes his relationship to Lucchino in his farewell/ mea culpa as "complicated". We all know what he really meant- Lucchino was a difficult guy to work under.
Posted by Shtarka
Wow talk about misrepresentation of facts...you must have studied under the Law School of Distortion...
First off, you were right to that Theo said working with Lucchino was complicated, but he also said it was fulfilling and rewarding too...you conveniently left that part out. By the way, how many boss/worker relationships in any business would not be considered complicated!!
Secondly, Theo never was in charge of baseball operations for the Red Sox...that was Lucchino's job. It was Theo's job to manage and execute the baseball field matters as General Manager. Lucchino was his boss, no question about it, but he admits repeatedly, which these pages are removed from the Law School text books, that he had input into what transpired for the team but didn't make the decisions.
Third, Theo's new position with the Cubs is equivalent to Lucchino's which is why it is not considered a lateral move and the Sox are expecting compensation for Theo leaving. I believe Theo is bringing Jed Hoyer in to be the GM.
Theo is on record as saying he would have stayed on another season as Sox GM if Francona had stayed, but since he didn't it made for a perfect time for him to move on and allow Cherington to handle the re-building on the front office, which includes the field manager.
Please shtarka don't get caught up in the spindoctor shenanigans that some people here are OBSESSED with...Theo might as well have just sat by the pool, ate bon-bons and collected his handsome checks prior to his walking out in 2005 because Lucchino was making all the baseball decisions, or at least that is the case in the distorted minds of the Theo Haters Army. -
Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle
posted at 10/26/2011 3:29 PM EDT
- hankwilliams
- Posts: 1249
- First: 10/13/2011
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InEpstein is simply a "neardowell". -
Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle
posted at 10/26/2011 3:47 PM EDT
- OurMan
- Posts: 339
- First: 10/19/2011
- Last: 11/3/2011
In Response to Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle:Theo might as well have just sat by the pool, ate bon-bons and collected his handsome checks prior to his walking out in 2005 because Lucchino was making all the baseball decisions, or at least that is the case in the distorted minds of the Theo Haters Army.
Posted by Soxdog67
Which is exactly what happened before 2005, when Theo QUIT on the Red Sox to GET control of Red Sox player personnel.
Red Sox Nation got a front row seat to what happened to the Red Sox from 2008-2011 under Theo's control. -
Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle
posted at 10/26/2011 3:52 PM EDT
- Soxdog67
- Posts: 3327
- First: 6/2/2008
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In Response to Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle:In Response to Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle : Which is exactly what happened before 2005, when Theo QUIT on the Red Sox to GET control of Red Sox player personnel. Red Sox Nation got a front row seat to what happened to the Red Sox from 2008-2011 under Theo's control.
Posted by OurMan
Law, if you weren't in such a distorted state about anything/everything Theo we could actually have a fan to fan discussion about this...but you know we've been over this a few too many times already and it is useless to try to enhance the vision of those who will not see. -
Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle
posted at 10/26/2011 3:56 PM EDT
- OurMan
- Posts: 339
- First: 10/19/2011
- Last: 11/3/2011
In Response to Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle:In Response to Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle : Law, if you weren't in such a distorted state about anything/everything Theo we could actually have a fan to fan discussion about this...but you know we've been over this a few too many times already and it is useless to try to enhance the vision of those who will not see.
Posted by Soxdog67
Nothing distorted about facts.
It's the worst kept secret in Boston that Theo was lazy, arrogant and incompetent. Its an even worse secret that Lucchino was Theo's BOSS, and that Epstein didn't wrestle control over player personnel decisions away from Lucchino until he was able to exercise it in 2008.
And we all know what's been happening to the Red Sox since 2008.
DECLINE. -
Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle
posted at 10/26/2011 4:04 PM EDT
- sday4x4
- Posts: 765
- First: 8/5/2009
- Last: 3/2/2012
so if you say they stink every year....even through the great years....won't you eventually be right Law? won't any team eventually have a downturn? -
Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle
posted at 10/26/2011 4:10 PM EDT
- Soxdog67
- Posts: 3327
- First: 6/2/2008
- Last: 6/14/2013
In Response to Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle:In Response to Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle : Nothing distorted about facts. It's the worst kept secret in Boston that Theo was lazy, arrogant and incompetent. Its an even worse secret that Lucchino was Theo's BOSS, and that Epstein didn't wrestle control over player personnel decisions away from Lucchino until he was able to exercise it in 2008. And we all know what's been happening to the Red Sox since 2008. DECLINE.
Posted by OurMan
Have you once ever provided documented proof of the 'so-called' facts you try to pawn off on everyone here??? Just once please attach a reputable article from a media source that provides the same details that your distorted facts try to sell here.
Let's start with these:- Schilling trade
- Ortiz signing
- Millar signing
- Foulke signing
- Nomar trade
- Roberts trade
The only response I'll get for this request, if I get one at all, is a spellchek of the word spellcheck and telling me how I didn't finish 6th grade or something.
yeah, yeah I know...DECLINE...(providing facts). -
Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle
posted at 10/27/2011 5:31 AM EDT
- Shtarka
- Posts: 193
- First: 4/19/2009
- Last: 2/25/2013
Soxdog67- I think you misunderstood my intent. Epstein tended to be a front office guy, not an on the field / talent evaluator type. Easy to see how his inclinations would clash with Lucchino. We both know of corporate situations where a high executive can clash with a higher executive. In terms of Epstein's backhanded compliment to Lucchino by calling his relationship with him "complicated but ultimatley fulfilling and rewarding", those of us with cooperate experience understand what he is really saying. Afterall, he didn't describe the relationship as "ulitmately fulfilling and rewarding, although complicated", did he? -
Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle
posted at 10/27/2011 7:55 AM EDT
- soxmeister
- Posts: 1281
- First: 7/30/2005
- Last: 8/25/2012
Lucchino is an operations guy, not a personnel guy ... he brings in the money, and is responsible for the ballpark, events, etc.. That is huge, regardless of whether he has the personality of a slug.
I like Theo, I like air guitar, and I thought he did a decent job as GM. Not a great one, but a decent one.
It certainly isn't Theo's fault that Bucholtz went down with a fracture in his back, or that Lackey's elbow went totally south before the medical experts thought it would. Lackey was a good signing at the time, every signing is a gamble.
But if I had to lose either Theo or Lucchino, I am glad it was Theo. Lucchino is excellent at what he does. Theo IMO is very average. -
Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle
posted at 10/28/2011 9:01 AM EDT
- OurMan
- Posts: 339
- First: 10/19/2011
- Last: 11/3/2011
In Response to Re: Theo vs. Lucchino- Lucchino wins this power struggle:Soxdog67- I think you misunderstood my intent. Epstein tended to be a front office guy, not an on the field / talent evaluator type. Easy to see how his inclinations would clash with Lucchino. We both know of corporate situations where a high executive can clash with a higher executive. In terms of Epstein's backhanded compliment to Lucchino by calling his relationship with him "complicated but ultimatley fulfilling and rewarding", those of us with cooperate experience understand what he is really saying. Afterall, he didn't describe the relationship as "ulitmately fulfilling and rewarding, although complicated", did he?
Posted by Shtarka