There is only one Terry Francona

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    There is only one Terry Francona

    Seems to me that the Red Sox FO is looking for someone to manage this team with a similar make-up to that of Francona. otherwise, why would they even consider Brad Ausmus, whose only qualification is managing Israel in the WBC. MLBTR says he has the low-stress demeanor of Francona.

    Similarly, Hale and Farrell are both Francona protoges, and as I understand it, even Bogar was considered.

    If they wanted another Francona, they should have just hired him back. But, after the way they ran him out of town, that wasn't going to happen. Under new ownership, maybe. But then new ownership might want someone who is not afraid to discipline players.

    I don't know who the right guy is, and frankly, I'm not sure the FO knows either.

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: There is only one Terry Francona

    2 thoughts Alibi.

    1.  Of course the Sox are going to be in the process of ruing the day they let Francona go for years.  

    2.  Though in theory, there might be a manager in todays game who could 'not be afraid of disciplining players' and still be succesful.  But, I actually can't think of one who actually is.  Can you name one succesful manager managing today who is an old-school disciplinarian?  I can't. 

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: There is only one Terry Francona

    They were hoping for Valentine to have a playoff run to prove that 2011 was Francona's fault.

    The ownership should have stepped in and supported their manager, instead they tried to take the easy way out and blame him.

    This is the silver lining to 2012.

    Francona vindicated and now even the people who doubted him realize that he was better at his job than most gave him credit for.

    The owners and Lucchino are good at one thing, they are good at shooting themselves in the foot. They had a golden goose and they let it get away. They broke the curse, had all of Red Sox fandom on their side and blew it all away by being stupid....now they find themselves in a worse position than the team was when they bought it.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from J-BAY. Show J-BAY's posts

    Re: There is only one Terry Francona

    In response to ZILLAGOD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    They were hoping for Valentine to have a playoff run to prove that 2011 was Francona's fault.

    The ownership should have stepped in and supported their manager, instead they tried to take the easy way out and blame him.

    This is the silver lining to 2012.

    Francona vindicated and now even the people who doubted him realize that he was better at his job than most gave him credit for.

    The owners and Lucchino are good at one thing, they are good at shooting themselves in the foot. They had a golden goose and they let it get away. They broke the curse, had all of Red Sox fandom on their side and blew it all away by being stupid....now they find themselves in a worse position than the team was when they bought it.

    [/QUOTE]

    Exactly right, zill. well said

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: There is only one Terry Francona

    In response to SpacemanEephus's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    2 thoughts Alibi.

    1.  Of course the Sox are going to be in the process of ruing the day they let Francona go for years.  

    2.  Though in theory, there might be a manager in todays game who could 'not be afraid of disciplining players' and still be succesful.  But, I actually can't think of one who actually is.  Can you name one succesful manager managing today who is an old-school disciplinarian?  I can't. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Hard to say what goes on behind the scenes and what gets reported but you are probably right. Even the old guys like Leyland and Baker have had to tone it down some. Different culture.

    However, there are ways of chewing guys out and have them walk away thinking you did them a favor. Good leaders can do that. They can feed you crap, and convince you it's ice-cream!

     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: There is only one Terry Francona

    In response to Alibiike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to SpacemanEephus's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    2 thoughts Alibi.

    1.  Of course the Sox are going to be in the process of ruing the day they let Francona go for years.  

    2.  Though in theory, there might be a manager in todays game who could 'not be afraid of disciplining players' and still be succesful.  But, I actually can't think of one who actually is.  Can you name one succesful manager managing today who is an old-school disciplinarian?  I can't. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Hard to say what goes on behind the scenes and what gets reported but you are probably right. Even the old guys like Leyland and Baker have had to tone it down some. Different culture.

    However, there are ways of chewing guys out and have them walk away thinking you did them a favor. Good leaders can do that. They can feed you crap, and convince you it's ice-cream!

    [/QUOTE]

    Ha, very true.  And that is how the best do it in these post-modern times.  

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from seabeachfred. Show seabeachfred's posts

    Re: There is only one Terry Francona

    In response to Alibiike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to SpacemanEephus's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    2 thoughts Alibi.

    1.  Of course the Sox are going to be in the process of ruing the day they let Francona go for years.  

    2.  Though in theory, there might be a manager in todays game who could 'not be afraid of disciplining players' and still be succesful.  But, I actually can't think of one who actually is.  Can you name one succesful manager managing today who is an old-school disciplinarian?  I can't. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Hard to say what goes on behind the scenes and what gets reported but you are probably right. Even the old guys like Leyland and Baker have had to tone it down some. Different culture.

    However, there are ways of chewing guys out and have them walk away thinking you did them a favor. Good leaders can do that. They can feed you crap, and convince you it's ice-cream!

    [/QUOTE]


    Time for a minority view on this love fest for Francona.  The fact is that he was a very distracted manager in 2011.  Spring  Training was a joke; there was a 12 game "losing streak" and it was pretty much agreed that the team was not ready for the regular season when it opened as we lost ten of the first 12 games.  He was going through a divorce and he has a son in the service soon to be transported for Afghanistan.  He also completely lost the team in September as they ran all over him, a man who always had the players desires first.  They took advantage of him.

    Also keep in mind that while he was a "players" manager, good in the clubhouse, and able to keep pressure of the press and media off of the players, he was a very weak field manager routinely costing the team between 8-12 games a year.  He was always late in removing a struggling pitcher, his handling of the bullpen was atroticious, he never seemed to learn from his mistakes because he was a very stubborn person, and his game plan never varied with the happenings on the field.  He went went his pre-game plan and stuck to it almost all of the time.

    I'm convinced that he cost the Red Sox division titles in 2005, 2008 and 2009, and the AL Title in 2009.  He failed miserably in Philadelphia his first go-round, failed in Boston his last three or four seasons, and I think he will fail in Cleveland because of his dull and unimaginative philosophy of station-to-station baseball, hardly ever hit and running, almost never using the bunt and very reluctant to move the runners under most conditions.  He was easy to defend because o ther teams knew they only had to have their pitchers concentrate on the batter with rare exceptions when a Jacoby was on first.  Sorry but no hosannas about  Terry from me.

     

     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: There is only one Terry Francona

    In response to seabeachfred's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Alibiike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to SpacemanEephus's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    2 thoughts Alibi.

    1.  Of course the Sox are going to be in the process of ruing the day they let Francona go for years.  

    2.  Though in theory, there might be a manager in todays game who could 'not be afraid of disciplining players' and still be succesful.  But, I actually can't think of one who actually is.  Can you name one succesful manager managing today who is an old-school disciplinarian?  I can't. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Hard to say what goes on behind the scenes and what gets reported but you are probably right. Even the old guys like Leyland and Baker have had to tone it down some. Different culture.

    However, there are ways of chewing guys out and have them walk away thinking you did them a favor. Good leaders can do that. They can feed you crap, and convince you it's ice-cream!

    [/QUOTE]


    Time for a minority view on this love fest for Francona.  The fact is that he was a very distracted manager in 2011.  Spring  Training was a joke; there was a 12 game "losing streak" and it was pretty much agreed that the team was not ready for the regular season when it opened as we lost ten of the first 12 games.  He was going through a divorce and he has a son in the service soon to be transported for Afghanistan.  He also completely lost the team in September as they ran all over him, a man who always had the players desires first.  They took advantage of him.

    Also keep in mind that while he was a "players" manager, good in the clubhouse, and able to keep pressure of the press and media off of the players, he was a very weak field manager routinely costing the team between 8-12 games a year.  He was always late in removing a struggling pitcher, his handling of the bullpen was atroticious, he never seemed to learn from his mistakes because he was a very stubborn person, and his game plan never varied with the happenings on the field.  He went went his pre-game plan and stuck to it almost all of the time.

    I'm convinced that he cost the Red Sox division titles in 2005, 2008 and 2009, and the AL Title in 2009.  He failed miserably in Philadelphia his first go-round, failed in Boston his last three or four seasons, and I think he will fail in Cleveland because of his dull and unimaginative philosophy of station-to-station baseball, hardly ever hit and running, almost never using the bunt and very reluctant to move the runners under most conditions.  He was easy to defend because o ther teams knew they only had to have their pitchers concentrate on the batter with rare exceptions when a Jacoby was on first.  Sorry but no hosannas about  Terry from me.

     

    he was so great he had to wait a yr and settle for the cleveland indians job.....the kc jones of managers.....thanks for slapping this sappy thread back into reality....how can any team lose 12 in a row in spring training????   nice guy but obviously out of it when he wqas needed most

     

    [/QUOTE]


     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: There is only one Terry Francona

    In response to seabeachfred's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Alibiike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to SpacemanEephus's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    2 thoughts Alibi.

    1.  Of course the Sox are going to be in the process of ruing the day they let Francona go for years.  

    2.  Though in theory, there might be a manager in todays game who could 'not be afraid of disciplining players' and still be succesful.  But, I actually can't think of one who actually is.  Can you name one succesful manager managing today who is an old-school disciplinarian?  I can't. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Hard to say what goes on behind the scenes and what gets reported but you are probably right. Even the old guys like Leyland and Baker have had to tone it down some. Different culture.

    However, there are ways of chewing guys out and have them walk away thinking you did them a favor. Good leaders can do that. They can feed you crap, and convince you it's ice-cream!

    [/QUOTE]


    Time for a minority view on this love fest for Francona.  The fact is that he was a very distracted manager in 2011.  Spring  Training was a joke; there was a 12 game "losing streak" and it was pretty much agreed that the team was not ready for the regular season when it opened as we lost ten of the first 12 games.  He was going through a divorce and he has a son in the service soon to be transported for Afghanistan.  He also completely lost the team in September as they ran all over him, a man who always had the players desires first.  They took advantage of him.

    Also keep in mind that while he was a "players" manager, good in the clubhouse, and able to keep pressure of the press and media off of the players, he was a very weak field manager routinely costing the team between 8-12 games a year.  He was always late in removing a struggling pitcher, his handling of the bullpen was atroticious, he never seemed to learn from his mistakes because he was a very stubborn person, and his game plan never varied with the happenings on the field.  He went went his pre-game plan and stuck to it almost all of the time.

    I'm convinced that he cost the Red Sox division titles in 2005, 2008 and 2009, and the AL Title in 2009.  He failed miserably in Philadelphia his first go-round, failed in Boston his last three or four seasons, and I think he will fail in Cleveland because of his dull and unimaginative philosophy of station-to-station baseball, hardly ever hit and running, almost never using the bunt and very reluctant to move the runners under most conditions.  He was easy to defend because o ther teams knew they only had to have their pitchers concentrate on the batter with rare exceptions when a Jacoby was on first.  Sorry but no hosannas about  Terry from me.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    While thinking about 2005,2008 and 2009, I also wonder who he would be if Roberts was thrown out !  I've said it before and I'll continue to repeat it. During the seasons of 2004 thru 2011, the Sox could have and should have been considered a dynasty. Francona inherited a championship waiting to happen in 2004. From 2005 thru 2011, 7 years of talented players, they made it to one WS and failed to win a playoff games since 2008. They underperformed under Francona. All his fans can think about is HE won the WS after the Sox went without a WS championship for 86 years. They gave him a pass for the rest of his career in Boston. I refuse to give him a pass, he was, is now and always will be a horrible field manager. Dr. Phil could have managed the clubhouse and the sad fact is, he would have been a better field manager that Francona.

     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: There is only one Terry Francona

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    2 thoughts Alibi.

    1.  Of course the Sox are going to be in the process of ruing the day they let Francona go for years.  

    2.  Though in theory, there might be a manager in todays game who could 'not be afraid of disciplining players' and still be succesful.  But, I actually can't think of one who actually is.  Can you name one succesful manager managing today who is an old-school disciplinarian?  I can't. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Space (welcome back, btw, you've been much missed):

    1 - yep, poor decision IMO, but irrevocable now;

    2 - "Old School"?  I pity/despise the calcified relics (of any age) unable to understand the effect of the Reserve Clause's recision....how hard is to understand A Rat In The House May Eat The Ice Cream?  Or the ongoing societal changes.  Even IF one hates the way many/most modern people/athletes think/act....that's the reality.


    Me personally?  I'd told my mates for 1-2 years before 30 Oct 2003 that Manny was worth less than nothing because no team would take him for free.  Oh how I laughed when no team would take him for free...."proving me right" 

    It just proved that I didn't know how to get the best out of...how to manage...Manny Ramirez. 

    I was happy to admit the next year, the next few years, how wrong I was....


    .....managers aren't paid to manage the Tom Bradys, the Larry Birds, the Derek Jeters....

     

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: There is only one Terry Francona

    1.  Of course the Sox are going to be in the process of ruing the day they let Francona go for years.  

    2.  Though in theory, there might be a manager in todays game who could 'not be afraid of disciplining players' and still be succesful.  But, I actually can't think of one who actually is.  Can you name one succesful manager managing today who is an old-school disciplinarian?  I can't. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Hard to say what goes on behind the scenes and what gets reported but you are probably right. Even the old guys like Leyland and Baker have had to tone it down some. Different culture.

    However, there are ways of chewing guys out and have them walk away thinking you did them a favor. Good leaders can do that. They can feed you crap, and convince you it's ice-cream!

    [/QUOTE]


    Time for a minority view on this love fest for Francona.  The fact is that he was a very distracted manager in 2011.  Spring  Training was a joke; there was a 12 game "losing streak" and it was pretty much agreed that the team was not ready for the regular season when it opened as we lost ten of the first 12 games.  He was going through a divorce and he has a son in the service soon to be transported for Afghanistan.  He also completely lost the team in September as they ran all over him, a man who always had the players desires first.  They took advantage of him.

    Also keep in mind that while he was a "players" manager, good in the clubhouse, and able to keep pressure of the press and media off of the players, he was a very weak field manager routinely costing the team between 8-12 games a year.  He was always late in removing a struggling pitcher, his handling of the bullpen was atroticious, he never seemed to learn from his mistakes because he was a very stubborn person, and his game plan never varied with the happenings on the field.  He went went his pre-game plan and stuck to it almost all of the time.

    I'm convinced that he cost the Red Sox division titles in 2005, 2008 and 2009, and the AL Title in 2009.  He failed miserably in Philadelphia his first go-round, failed in Boston his last three or four seasons, and I think he will fail in Cleveland because of his dull and unimaginative philosophy of station-to-station baseball, hardly ever hit and running, almost never using the bunt and very reluctant to move the runners under most conditions.  He was easy to defend because o ther teams knew they only had to have their pitchers concentrate on the batter with rare exceptions when a Jacoby was on first.  Sorry but no hosannas about  Terry from me.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    While thinking about 2005,2008 and 2009, I also wonder who he would be if Roberts was thrown out !  I've said it before and I'll continue to repeat it. During the seasons of 2004 thru 2011, the Sox could have and should have been considered a dynasty. Francona inherited a championship waiting to happen in 2004. From 2005 thru 2011, 7 years of talented players, they made it to one WS and failed to win a playoff games since 2008. They underperformed under Francona. All his fans can think about is HE won the WS after the Sox went without a WS championship for 86 years. They gave him a pass for the rest of his career in Boston. I refuse to give him a pass, he was, is now and always will be a horrible field manager. Dr. Phil could have managed the clubhouse and the sad fact is, he would have been a better field manager that Francona.

    [/QUOTE]
     

    and you are a bigger bozo than seabeachfred.

    [/QUOTE]


    Why do you behave so badly here?  Why so rude?  Are you so aggressive and rude with people face-to-face?

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: There is only one Terry Francona

    During the seasons of 2004 thru 2011, the Sox could have and should have been considered a dynasty. 

    Then you are of the opinion that Theo was an awesome GM?

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: There is only one Terry Francona

    Seems to me that the Red Sox FO is looking for someone to manage this team with a similar make-up to that of Francona. otherwise, why would they even consider Brad Ausmus, whose only qualification is managing Israel in the WBC. MLBTR says he has the low-stress demeanor of Francona.

    Similarly, Hale and Farrell are both Francona protoges, and as I understand it, even Bogar was considered.

    I guess part of the problem is that Tito has set the standard for the next generation of managers.  They saw how successful Tito was, and they emulate him.

     
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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: There is only one Terry Francona

    he was so great he had to wait a yr and settle for the cleveland indians job.....

    He took a year off after 8 years at the same gig.  That's not just not unusual, it would be highly unusual if he didn't take a year off.

    How many managers have taken a job the year after they left their old job?

     
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  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: There is only one Terry Francona

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    During the seasons of 2004 thru 2011, the Sox could have and should have been considered a dynasty. 

    Then you are of the opinion that Theo was an awesome GM?

    [/QUOTE]
    I'm of the opinion that the Sox had a lot of talent throughout Francona's tenure and I wasn't thrilled with the results. 2004 thrilled me, but Francona had nothing to do with that. Dave Roberts saved Francona's b u t t, and possibly his career.

     
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  22. This post has been removed.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: There is only one Terry Francona

    Time for a minority view on this love fest for Francona. The fact is that he was a very distracted manager in 2011. Spring Training was a joke; there was a 12 game "losing streak" and it was pretty much agreed that the team was not ready for the regular season when it opened as we lost ten of the first 12 games. He was going through a divorce and he has a son in the service soon to be transported for Afghanistan. He also completely lost the team in September as they ran all over him, a man who always had the players desires first. They took advantage of him.

    Also keep in mind that while he was a "players" manager, good in the clubhouse, and able to keep pressure of the press and media off of the players, he was a very weak field manager routinely costing the team between 8-12 games a year. He was always late in removing a struggling pitcher, his handling of the bullpen was atroticious, he never seemed to learn from his mistakes because he was a very stubborn person, and his game plan never varied with the happenings on the field. He went went his pre-game plan and stuck to it almost all of the time.

    I'm convinced that he cost the Red Sox division titles in 2005, 2008 and 2009, and the AL Title in 2009. He failed miserably in Philadelphia his first go-round, failed in Boston his last three or four seasons, and I think he will fail in Cleveland because of his dull and unimaginative philosophy of station-to-station baseball, hardly ever hit and running, almost never using the bunt and very reluctant to move the runners under most conditions. He was easy to defend because o ther teams knew they only had to have their pitchers concentrate on the batter with rare exceptions when a Jacoby was on first. Sorry but no hosannas about Terry from me.

    +1. Francona was not horrible IMO, just mediocre. He never learned from his many mistakes on the field, but was decent at managing the clubhouse when the clubhouse needed little managing. As for WallyBrainDead who thinks this conversation is about Valentine, he must have forgotten his Ritalin this morning.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: There is only one Terry Francona

    In response to seabeachfred's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Alibiike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to SpacemanEephus's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    2 thoughts Alibi.

    1.  Of course the Sox are going to be in the process of ruing the day they let Francona go for years.  

    2.  Though in theory, there might be a manager in todays game who could 'not be afraid of disciplining players' and still be succesful.  But, I actually can't think of one who actually is.  Can you name one succesful manager managing today who is an old-school disciplinarian?  I can't. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Hard to say what goes on behind the scenes and what gets reported but you are probably right. Even the old guys like Leyland and Baker have had to tone it down some. Different culture.

    However, there are ways of chewing guys out and have them walk away thinking you did them a favor. Good leaders can do that. They can feed you crap, and convince you it's ice-cream!

    [/QUOTE]


    Time for a minority view on this love fest for Francona.  The fact is that he was a very distracted manager in 2011.  Spring  Training was a joke; there was a 12 game "losing streak" and it was pretty much agreed that the team was not ready for the regular season when it opened as we lost ten of the first 12 games.  He was going through a divorce and he has a son in the service soon to be transported for Afghanistan.  He also completely lost the team in September as they ran all over him, a man who always had the players desires first.  They took advantage of him.

    Also keep in mind that while he was a "players" manager, good in the clubhouse, and able to keep pressure of the press and media off of the players, he was a very weak field manager routinely costing the team between 8-12 games a year.  He was always late in removing a struggling pitcher, his handling of the bullpen was atroticious, he never seemed to learn from his mistakes because he was a very stubborn person, and his game plan never varied with the happenings on the field.  He went went his pre-game plan and stuck to it almost all of the time.

    I'm convinced that he cost the Red Sox division titles in 2005, 2008 and 2009, and the AL Title in 2009.  He failed miserably in Philadelphia his first go-round, failed in Boston his last three or four seasons, and I think he will fail in Cleveland because of his dull and unimaginative philosophy of station-to-station baseball, hardly ever hit and running, almost never using the bunt and very reluctant to move the runners under most conditions.  He was easy to defend because o ther teams knew they only had to have their pitchers concentrate on the batter with rare exceptions when a Jacoby was on first.  Sorry but no hosannas about  Terry from me.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    I love that whole he cost the team "8 to 12" games a year thing.  

    So in your opinion The Red Sox should have won:

    04 108 games

    05 106

    06 96

    07 106

    08 105

    09 105

    10 99

    11 100

    Sure.  that makes sense.  Great point you made there. 

    Wow.

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: There is only one Terry Francona

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    2 thoughts Alibi.

    1.  Of course the Sox are going to be in the process of ruing the day they let Francona go for years.  

    2.  Though in theory, there might be a manager in todays game who could 'not be afraid of disciplining players' and still be succesful.  But, I actually can't think of one who actually is.  Can you name one succesful manager managing today who is an old-school disciplinarian?  I can't. 

    [/QUOTE]

    disagree with you both. the let teh rats run the hen house was how this ship started going down in the first place. tehy may want someone lese who will yield to their whims and focus only on making players feeel good, but i dont like that recipe.

     
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