There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    But Roy, look at the Nats. Their offense didn't didn't show up for the first two months, yet they were able to compete because their SP kept them in games

    Spot on.  Consistent, high-level pitching goes a real distance towards ensuring success.

    It should also be noted that the Nats would've been probably had 160 starts from their rotation except for wanting to shut down Strasburg.  That's virtually impossible.

    It kind of fades into the memory a little, but the reason why we won in 2004 and 2007 had a lot to do with 157 and 151 starts from our rotation.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    Good point on Kuroda.  If Ben had signed Kuroda and NYY had not, how different would things have looked on August 27th?

    Problem is, Ben looks ready to do more of the same...sign cheap recovery project (a la Cook, Prior, Padilla, almost Oswalt) instead of possibly over pay for an established guy.  Didn't work this year, didn't work with Smoltz and Penny.  What's the definition of insanity?

    The Sox need to (over)pay Sanchez and Peavy, the two best youngish pitchers available, and maybe work a trade for Masterson, and go into the season with at least 6, maybe 7 bonafide starters.  Lester, Buchholz, Lackey, Peavy, Sanchez, Doubront, Masterson and Morales might just be enough.  Tazawa, Bailey, Miller, Hill, Atchison, Melancon, Breslow, Bard, Padilla and Mortenson provide enough bullpen and trade bait to add some needed pieces in other areas.  But the Sox are not going to get a good enough starting rotation to compete without either overpaying in salary or overpaying in prospects. 

    The Sox, for once, have a much better financial position--meaning they are in a much better position to overpay in salary than they are in prospects.  This is especially the case for a team that is rebuilding.  But they seem itent on learning the lesson of not paying for high priced free agents.  What they seem to have missed is that the right free agents ARE worth the money.  Sabbathia and Teixeira WERE worth it to the Yankees, as was Kuroda.

     
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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    Good point on Kuroda.  If Ben had signed Kuroda and NYY had not, how different would things have looked on August 27th?

    Problem is, Ben looks ready to do more of the same...sign cheap recovery project (a la Cook, Prior, Padilla, almost Oswalt) instead of possibly over pay for an established guy.  Didn't work this year, didn't work with Smoltz and Penny.  What's the definition of insanity?

    The Sox need to (over)pay Sanchez and Peavy, the two best youngish pitchers available, and maybe work a trade for Masterson, and go into the season with at least 6, maybe 7 bonafide starters.  Lester, Buchholz, Lackey, Peavy, Sanchez, Doubront, Masterson and Morales might just be enough.

    Kuroda is a strawman argument.  You can't say he made a mistake not signing Kuroda if he didn't have money for Kuroda.  Further, you cannot ignore the other offsetting moves.  Kuroda had a 3.9 WAR, but Ross had a 2.4, so the difference is only 1.5 more wins, even assuming he magically came up with the other $7M.

    Further, you're arguing for 7 starters.  So you're going to good prospects for Masterson and ask him to grab a seat in the BP?  I'm sure he'll love that.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I do not think the best pitching coach in the history of MLB could have turned our 5+ starter ERA into 4.00 or lower, which is what it would have taken to make us contenders this year.

    [/QUOTE]

    Maybe not, but there had to be some mechanics issues with the SP . Perhaps someone more intrusive would have made adjustments. McClure was a hands-off guy.

    Our pitchers are too good to pitch that bad. 

    You don't want to hear this but it could also been the catching, which is actually more plausible.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Alibiike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    That a decent pitching coach wouldn't have fixed.

    It was the SP that failed this team on the field, nothing more.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I'll give you a half-thumbs up.  The SPs were an epic fail, but as others mentioned, some of it might be talent related.  We could've probably used someone for lester.  No one knows how Becektt is motivated.  Buchholz might've just needed 'x' amount of starts to get over his injury.  Bard it's quite possible that someone else might've clicked with him.

    I'm not sure about Farrell, but at a minimum, he knows the pitchers.

    [/QUOTE]

    Sure, there were many other factors contributing to our demise, but none more than the SP, IMO.

    I don't know what the numbers are but the SP put us in a hole numerous times, and this team just does not come from behind well.

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from seabeachfred. Show seabeachfred's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The pollyannas on this board must think that some of the more critical posters enjoy tearing into or team.  Nothing could be farther from the truth, but the fact is there was PLENTY wrong with the 2012 Red Sox

    Everyone in here has a pretty good grasp of what went wrong, from what I can see.  You're just not reading what they are posting.

    Ike and Jim led in with the pitching, which everyone pretty much agreed with.  Roy mentioned the lack of consistency on offense.  Moon agreed on the pitching, Notin mentioned us using 17 different OFs.  You're not seeing anything different than anyone else in here.

    [/QUOTE]


    OK Joe, let's for the sake of argument say you are right on---tell me this, though.  Why on earth would someone create a post lilke this?  THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE 2012 RED SOX?  Do these people think we're nuts, that we didn't see with our own eyes in person and on TV just how bad this team was.  I mean in five years we've gone from the penthouse to the outhouse.  There may have been teams in the past who have fallen as fast as ours has but I can't remember more than two.  In addition, anyone who says that the policy last winter of keeping this band of underachieving whiners together for another year are out of their minds.

    As critical as I am of Cherington who I think is a weak kneed second rater, I really hope to be able to spout a mea culpa in this regard by the end of this off season.  We need help, we need creativity and we need a new attitude.

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from seabeachfred. Show seabeachfred's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    In response to parhunter55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Good point on Kuroda.  If Ben had signed Kuroda and NYY had not, how different would things have looked on August 27th?

    Problem is, Ben looks ready to do more of the same...sign cheap recovery project (a la Cook, Prior, Padilla, almost Oswalt) instead of possibly over pay for an established guy.  Didn't work this year, didn't work with Smoltz and Penny.  What's the definition of insanity?

    The Sox need to (over)pay Sanchez and Peavy, the two best youngish pitchers available, and maybe work a trade for Masterson, and go into the season with at least 6, maybe 7 bonafide starters.  Lester, Buchholz, Lackey, Peavy, Sanchez, Doubront, Masterson and Morales might just be enough.  Tazawa, Bailey, Miller, Hill, Atchison, Melancon, Breslow, Bard, Padilla and Mortenson provide enough bullpen and trade bait to add some needed pieces in other areas.  But the Sox are not going to get a good enough starting rotation to compete without either overpaying in salary or overpaying in prospects. 

    The Sox, for once, have a much better financial position--meaning they are in a much better position to overpay in salary than they are in prospects.  This is especially the case for a team that is rebuilding.  But they seem itent on learning the lesson of not paying for high priced free agents.  What they seem to have missed is that the right free agents ARE worth the money.  Sabbathia and Teixeira WERE worth it to the Yankees, as was Kuroda.

     

    Hunterman, the key is whether Prune Face Henry is going to open up his purse strings this winter and whether if he does Cherington will have the smarts and cajones to make the right moves.  Frankly, I'm not sure of the first and certainly have doubts about the second.  Insanity as defined by you and o thers is trying to get a different result by doing the same thing over and over again.  It didn't work in 2009 and didn't work in 2012.  Good money spent wisely on solid pitching could turn things around.  You can't accomplish this by going dumpster dumping as we have two of the past four seasons.

    [/QUOTE]


     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    In response to seabeachfred's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The pollyannas on this board must think that some of the more critical posters enjoy tearing into or team.  Nothing could be farther from the truth, but the fact is there was PLENTY wrong with the 2012 Red Sox

    Everyone in here has a pretty good grasp of what went wrong, from what I can see.  You're just not reading what they are posting.

    Ike and Jim led in with the pitching, which everyone pretty much agreed with.  Roy mentioned the lack of consistency on offense.  Moon agreed on the pitching, Notin mentioned us using 17 different OFs.  You're not seeing anything different than anyone else in here.

    [/QUOTE]


    OK Joe, let's for the sake of argument say you are right on---tell me this, though.  Why on earth would someone create a post lilke this?  THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE 2012 RED SOX?  Do these people think we're nuts, that we didn't see with our own eyes in person and on TV just how bad this team was.  I mean in five years we've gone from the penthouse to the outhouse.  There may have been teams in the past who have fallen as fast as ours has but I can't remember more than two.  In addition, anyone who says that the policy last winter of keeping this band of underachieving whiners together for another year are out of their minds.

    As critical as I am of Cherington who I think is a weak kneed second rater, I really hope to be able to spout a mea culpa in this regard by the end of this off season.  We need help, we need creativity and we need a new attitude.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    1-Don't know why Ike started the thread, but obviously SPs were our biggest issue by far.  Past that, they are the hardest to fix.  We need a 1B, 2 OFers, and a DH, and if we re-sign Papi and Ross, then we need a LF and a 1B, 2 relatively easier fixes.

    2-And we didn't go from the penthouse to the outhouse over five years, more like 7 months in BB time.  You forget we were the best in BB just last 8/31.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    Good money spent wisely on solid pitching could turn things around.

    Okay Fred, I'm confused.  Ike is a Pollyanna for saying all we need to do is fix the pitching?  And now you're saying good money on solid pitching could turn things around.

    What part of you agreeing with him do you disagree with?

     
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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from seabeachfred. Show seabeachfred's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    In response to FenwayJimmy's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to seabeachfred's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to parhunter55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Good point on Kuroda.  If Ben had signed Kuroda and NYY had not, how different would things have looked on August 27th?

    Problem is, Ben looks ready to do more of the same...sign cheap recovery project (a la Cook, Prior, Padilla, almost Oswalt) instead of possibly over pay for an established guy.  Didn't work this year, didn't work with Smoltz and Penny.  What's the definition of insanity?

    The Sox need to (over)pay Sanchez and Peavy, the two best youngish pitchers available, and maybe work a trade for Masterson, and go into the season with at least 6, maybe 7 bonafide starters.  Lester, Buchholz, Lackey, Peavy, Sanchez, Doubront, Masterson and Morales might just be enough.  Tazawa, Bailey, Miller, Hill, Atchison, Melancon, Breslow, Bard, Padilla and Mortenson provide enough bullpen and trade bait to add some needed pieces in other areas.  But the Sox are not going to get a good enough starting rotation to compete without either overpaying in salary or overpaying in prospects. 

    The Sox, for once, have a much better financial position--meaning they are in a much better position to overpay in salary than they are in prospects.  This is especially the case for a team that is rebuilding.  But they seem itent on learning the lesson of not paying for high priced free agents.  What they seem to have missed is that the right free agents ARE worth the money.  Sabbathia and Teixeira WERE worth it to the Yankees, as was Kuroda.

     

    Hunterman, the key is whether Prune Face Henry is going to open up his purse strings this winter and whether if he does Cherington will have the smarts and cajones to make the right moves.  Frankly, I'm not sure of the first and certainly have doubts about the second.  Insanity as defined by you and o thers is trying to get a different result by doing the same thing over and over again.  It didn't work in 2009 and didn't work in 2012.  Good money spent wisely on solid pitching could turn things around.  You can't accomplish this by going dumpster dumping ( Crawford, Gonzalez, Beckett) as we have two of the past four seasons.

    [/QUOTE]


    What is the most that you would want Henry to spend on a FA? Be specific in dollars and years. Yankees got some real bargains out of the dumpster in recent years with JC Martin, Swisher, Ichiro, Andruw Jones, Granderson, Ibanez,and Garcia. You win some, you lose some. Yo seem to only be able to see the worst of everything.

    [/QUOTE]


    Look Jimmy, you want to feel good about things that went down this year, but you are only kidding yourself.  Read my words....WE STUNK THIS YEAR.  And for you to say it was only about the pitching that caused our problems is a total canard.  Our hitting went down, our defense was only mediocre, our bullpen was inconsistent, the manager was  total loon, the GM failed to get the help we needed, Lucchino still insisted on meddling on baseball  field operations when he didn't know what he was talking about and an owner who was AWOL almost all of the season.

    Thank goodness the season is over so all of us can put this in our rear view mirror, but you have to g et a real dose of reality.  This year, combined with our September folderoo in September of last year, has turned out to be a total clusterf@@k for the organization and it cannot be rectified by trying to get a different result by doing the same tbings all over again.  Once you accept the fact that we were a laughing stock this season will you be able to turn the page and start making suggestions of how to improve the team instead of trying to defend the indefensible.

    [/QUOTE]


     
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  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    In response to FenwayJimmy's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Didn't the thread starter Alibiike qualify the Thread title  in the OP by saying "

    That a decent pitching coach wouldn't have fixed.

    It was the SP that failed this team on the field, nothing more.

     

    Thus in his opinion it was to be blamed on the SP and the pitching coach. That is what the thread should be about. Nothing more. Ike wasn't opining on the offense, defense, BV, Cherrington, or Henry. Respond accordingly instead of going off on a tangent.

    [/QUOTE]


    And do you have the lack of intelligence to think that a decent pitching coach would have fixed the Red Sox issues? You must have been watching DVR highlights of the 2009 season. This team lost 90 something games.

    Did you see how well Beckett and Gonzalez did in LA? Wake up. And oh by the way, you're attacking me and you have only 176 posts. What gives?

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    In response to FenwayJimmy's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    All of those injuries forced us to play AAA players and yes AAA players stink compared to ML players. Beckett and Lester stunk, they admit that. I didn't say that pitching was the only problem - the thread starter said that and that is what the thread is supposed to be about. No need to write a thesis about EVERYTHING that was wrong here. Bucholz was asked what went wrong this year and he replied "Everything". I'm sure that 99% of RSN agrees with him on that. So why preach to the choir? Everything went wrong and thus scapegoating is stupid and a waste of time. Many things that went wrong are nobody's fault, they just happened - injuries and underperformance and yes the FO and also BV were partly responsible.

    [/QUOTE]


    What you are missing is that given the injuries, where was some kind of talent behind it? Were there any pitchers at the AAA level that could step up? What about position players? The lack of quality players at the upper level farm system was a big factor also. So now we have:

    1. Starting pitching.

    2. No players ready to step up from high level farm system.

    3. Bad pitching coach.

    4. Bad manager.

    5. Injuries.

    6. Lack of cluch hitting (Agon for example)

    7. Underperforming stars (Pedroia, Ellsbury, Crawford, should I go on?)

    What's left.

    And the thread states " There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox that a better pitching coach couldn't fix."

    HA

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    But Roy, look at the Nats. Their offense didn't didn't show up for the first two months, yet they were able to compete because their SP kept them in games

    Spot on.  Consistent, high-level pitching goes a real distance towards ensuring success.

    It should also be noted that the Nats would've been probably had 160 starts from their rotation except for wanting to shut down Strasburg.  That's virtually impossible.

    It kind of fades into the memory a little, but the reason why we won in 2004 and 2007 had a lot to do with 157 and 151 starts from our rotation.

    Our team did not score 0-4 runs more often than the league average, yet when we did, we lost way more than others did. That is a direct result of our pitchers being unable to grind it out and win us our fair share of pitching duels.

    We were 1-18 when scoring 1 run (.053). The rest of AL was 20-186 (.097).

    We were 4-18 when scoring 2 runs (.182). The rest  was 69-219 (.240).

    We were 6-25 when scoring 3 runs (.194).  The rest  was 109-200 (.353).

    We were 8-9 when scoring 4 runs (.471).   The rest  was 173-112 (.607).

     

    Going by the percentages of the rest of the AL, we should have won 1 more one-run game, 1 more two-run game, 5 more three-run games, and 2 more four-run games for a total of about 9-10 more losses than the norm due to lack of gutsy pitching in tight low-scoring games.

    This is certainly not the whole issue with this team, but when you add in all the extra losses as compared to the AL average we got when scoring 5 or more runs, our pitching, namely the starters, were more to blame than our batting, fielding or base running combined.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    In response to MadMc44's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Perhaps somewhat of a blockbuster trade with the Indians---Pedroia, Lavarnway and Doubie for Masterson, Santana, Kipner and Perez; could be expanded to include Brantley or Shoo for Ells. 

     [/QUOTE]


    Not sure about the other but why would you want Masterson. In four seasons with Cleveland only 2011 was a good year. This year 11-15 with a 4.93 era. Sounds like more of what they already have. 

    Hetch

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The pollyannas on this board must think that some of the more critical posters enjoy tearing into or team.  Nothing could be farther from the truth, but the fact is there was PLENTY wrong with the 2012 Red Sox

    [/QUOTE]

    If you listen to the insightful interview on the Red Sox he was at Spring Training and even at that point Kaat points out things didn't seem quite right. I won't blame Bobby V, but his signing was the beginning of it all and others saw it much the same way. I'm sure Bobby V has his good points but coming in to right this sinking ship was a huge blunder by the Sox front office. The worst of it started with the ill advised comment to the press about Youk and it just snowballed from there. 

    Sure injuries didn't help but this club was disfunctional from ST on and it was just a matter of time before it all fell apart. The FO indecision on what to do with Bobby V was also a blunder. He should have been gone a few months ago and the search should have begun. Hopefully the Sox will not wait until Thanksgiving to sign a new manager. Farrel is not the answer either. 

    Hetch

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    Our hitting went down

    No, it didn't.  It got hurt, then traded.

    We lost CC, Ells, Ross, Papi and WMB to injuries, and then traded Gonzo and CC, with little to replace them.  On paper, we had the best offense in BB.  We led the league in scoring in 2011, and added Ross into the mix.  The OPS of the scheduled starting 9 was .795, which would've led the league.

     
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