Time to Bench Salty

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

    In response to slomag's comment:

     

    When Varitek couldn't hit his own weight, and could barely get the ball to second base, everybody still wanted him in the game because of how he handled the staff.  Now we have a catcher who strikes out a lot but led the team in HRs last year, and our staff is getting the best results many of us have ever seen, and we're complaining about a low batting average and inaccurate throwing arm.  

     




    slomag, think about what you are saying for a second.  The reasons you mentioned above were what put Tek in the back up role, even with the game calling skills 'which take years" to develop because his results were fading.  Salty doesn't do anything as good as Tek at this point except in OPS and CS.  Even in Teks last few years he still put up a high OPS and got on base more than Salty can after three years as starter.

     

    To say Salty's game calling skills have turned our staff around makes little sense.  The issue with guys like "Lester and Clay" was simply health and mechanics, Lackey may also be thrown into that category if he does better this season.  Salty has never had this kind of success with any of them in the past and an average catcher can't impact a staff like this in a few months.  With Dempster?  Salty never even caught the guy until this season and Doub is the same guy we saw last season. 

    Neives, Farrell and good health is what has turned a couple guys around.  Salty's only contribution here is blocking more balls, positioning himself and trying to be more of a leader/support to our staff when they struggle, or in other words a few more trips to the mound.  I was a catcher for many years and can tell exactly what Salty does and can't do well, or how he has improved over the past two seasons.  This is the main reason I critique him so much, not because I dislike him.



    Ask any pitcher who has ever pitched in MLB if a catcher makes a significant difference.

    Salty was not great with the staff in 2011 and at the very start of 2012, but improved greatly last year after about 4/25/12. Throw out the stats and just look at the games in 2011 vs 2013.

    Nobody is saying Salty has everything to do with the staff turn around, but to deny he has anything to do with it is naive. To me, he has a significant role in the reversal- maybe not as big as the coaching change, but the turn around is so grand that there's room for several people to get credit here.

    Youm mention Lester and Buch's "mechanics", are you so sure Salty had nothing to do with any adjustments they made- both before the season started, during the season, and during each game?

    Catchers have a huge influence on what pitch is called, the location, the framing of the pitch, the blocking of bad pitches, and more. It is undeniable that Salty has improved- the only question is how much and will it continue.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

     

    In response to slomag's comment:

     

    When Varitek couldn't hit his own weight, and could barely get the ball to second base, everybody still wanted him in the game because of how he handled the staff.  Now we have a catcher who strikes out a lot but led the team in HRs last year, and our staff is getting the best results many of us have ever seen, and we're complaining about a low batting average and inaccurate throwing arm.  

     




    slomag, think about what you are saying for a second.  The reasons you mentioned above were what put Tek in the back up role, even with the game calling skills 'which take years" to develop because his results were fading.  Salty doesn't do anything as good as Tek at this point except in OPS and CS.  Even in Teks last few years he still put up a high OPS and got on base more than Salty can after three years as starter.

     

    To say Salty's game calling skills have turned our staff around makes little sense.  The issue with guys like "Lester and Clay" was simply health and mechanics, Lackey may also be thrown into that category if he does better this season.  Salty has never had this kind of success with any of them in the past and an average catcher can't impact a staff like this in a few months.  With Dempster?  Salty never even caught the guy until this season and Doub is the same guy we saw last season. 

    Neives, Farrell and good health is what has turned a couple guys around.  Salty's only contribution here is blocking more balls, positioning himself and trying to be more of a leader/support to our staff when they struggle, or in other words a few more trips to the mound.  I was a catcher for many years and can tell exactly what Salty does and can't do well, or how he has improved over the past two seasons.  This is the main reason I critique him so much, not because I dislike him.

     



    Ask any pitcher who has ever pitched in MLB if a catcher makes a significant difference.

     

    Salty was not great with the staff in 2011 and at the very start of 2012, but improved greatly last year after about 4/25/12. Throw out the stats and just look at the games in 2011 vs 2013.

    Nobody is saying Salty has everything to do with the staff turn around, but to deny he has anything to do with it is naive. To me, he has a significant role in the reversal- maybe not as big as the coaching change, but the turn around is so grand that there's room for several people to get credit here.

    Youm mention Lester and Buch's "mechanics", are you so sure Salty had nothing to do with any adjustments they made- both before the season started, during the season, and during each game?

    Catchers have a huge influence on what pitch is called, the location, the framing of the pitch, the blocking of bad pitches, and more. It is undeniable that Salty has improved- the only question is how much and will it continue.

     



    moon, I never said a catcher doesn't play an important part.  What I'm saying is Salty's positioning, leadership ability and blocking more balls is his biggest improvement.  There is a fine line with "game calling ability" and we all know why a guy like Tek after many years was given the title as one of the best.

     

    If anything Salty has learned more from the staff than they have from him in the past few years as to where they like to pitch a batter.  If he has the ability to learn a few of the things Tek caught him thats great but I can safely say Salty is still learning "not teaching" our staff.  The important thing is for both of them to come together which has also improved.  Veteran pitchers know a lot more about a batter before a three year catcher ever could.  Regardless who is right or wrong here I can almost gaurantee Salty won't be a starting catcher much longer without raising his offensive numbers and keeping them there like Tek did for a number of years.  Salty only has a portion of Teks offensive talent after three years and we both know what ended Teks career.

    It wasn't the game calling ability/no hitters Tek called, defense or OPS.  It was the declining offense along with a poor arm.  Tek also had a more consistent level of offense early on and late in his career  Salty has stood still as a statue for two plus years.

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    moon, I never said a catcher doesn't play an important part.  What I'm saying is Salty's positioning, leadership ability and blocking more balls is his biggest improvement.  There is a fine line with "game calling ability" and we all know why a guy like Tek after many years was given the title as one of the best.

     

    If anything Salty has learned more from the staff than they have from him in the past few years as to where they like to pitch a batter.  If he has the ability to learn a few of the things Tek caught him thats great but I can safely say Salty is still learning "not teaching" our staff.  The important thing is for both of them to come together which has also improved.  Veteran pitchers know a lot more about a batter before a three year catcher ever could.  Regardless who is right or wrong here I can almost gaurantee Salty won't be a starting catcher much longer without raising his offensive numbers and keeping them there like Tek did for a number of years.  Salty only has a portion of Teks offensive talent after three years and we both know what ended Teks career.

    It wasn't the game calling ability/no hitters Tek called, defense or OPS.  It was the declining offense along with a poor arm.  Tek had a more consistenct level of offense early on and late in his career  Salty has stood still as a statue for two plus years.

    Although Salty has only been a real starter for just 2 years, he's been in the bigs on and off since 2007. I'm sure he is not at VTek's level of knowledge of opponent's hitter's proclivities, but I do think he has improved greatly and does strongly influence the pitches called. I hardly ever see pitchers shake him off anymore. They used to a lot.

    Believe what you will, but I feel Salty has made a major contribution to the staff turn around thus far. It began last May and has kept getting better and better. The new coaching staff cannot account for last year's significant improvement after April 25th. The staff did worse with Shoppach after 4/25 than before, and they stunk with Lava. They improved with Salty under Valantine.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    moon, I never said a catcher doesn't play an important part.  What I'm saying is Salty's positioning, leadership ability and blocking more balls is his biggest improvement.  There is a fine line with "game calling ability" and we all know why a guy like Tek after many years was given the title as one of the best.

     

    If anything Salty has learned more from the staff than they have from him in the past few years as to where they like to pitch a batter.  If he has the ability to learn a few of the things Tek caught him thats great but I can safely say Salty is still learning "not teaching" our staff.  The important thing is for both of them to come together which has also improved.  Veteran pitchers know a lot more about a batter before a three year catcher ever could.  Regardless who is right or wrong here I can almost gaurantee Salty won't be a starting catcher much longer without raising his offensive numbers and keeping them there like Tek did for a number of years.  Salty only has a portion of Teks offensive talent after three years and we both know what ended Teks career.

    It wasn't the game calling ability/no hitters Tek called, defense or OPS.  It was the declining offense along with a poor arm.  Tek had a more consistenct level of offense early on and late in his career  Salty has stood still as a statue for two plus years.

    Although Salty has only been a real starter for just 2 years, he's been in the bigs on and off since 2007. I'm sure he is not at VTek's level of knowledge of opponent's hitter's proclivities, but I do think he has improved greatly and does strongly influence the pitches called. I hardly ever see pitchers shake him off anymore. They used to a lot.

    Believe what you will, but I feel Salty has made a major contribution to the staff turn around thus far. It began last May and has kept getting better and better. The new coaching staff cannot account for last year's significant improvement after April 25th. The staff did worse with Shoppach after 4/25 than before, and they stunk with Lava. They improved with Salty under Valantine.



    moon,

    I guess the one thing we can both agree on regarding Salty is he holds all the cards for any future here in Boston as a starter and neither of our thoughts can influence the final decision. 

    I hope he improves offensively, not just in the other areas Tek was good or fair with.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    moon,

     

    I guess the one thing we can both agree on regarding Salty is he holds all the cards for any future here in Boston as a starter and neither of our thoughts can influence the final decision. 

    I hope he improves offensively, not just in the other areas Tek was good or fair with.

     

    I agree.

    Although his OPS has improved slightly each year (.737> .742> .755), his OBP has been below his career .301 mark each year with Boston.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    I was expecting softy or someone coming here and blaming Salty for the 13 runs last night.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxnewmex. Show soxnewmex's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    I guess if you're going to give a catcher signifcant credit for pitchers performing well you have to aportion significant blame to the catcher when pitchers perform poorly.  It's silly.  The truth is, the pitchers deserve very nearly all of the credit and all of the blame for their good and bad performances. 

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    Here is my scouting report on Salty : From what I can see , Salty is not very good at blocking pitches. A lot get past him. Usually scored as wild pitches , but a better catcher would block more of them.  Base stealers pretty much run at will on him. He seems improved at calling the game , and works well with the pitchers. On offense , you are going to get some home runs along with many strikeouts.  All in all , I would not bench him for the mediocre Ross. We will have to see how Lavarnway and Vasquez develop.  For now , Salty is probably our best bet.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    Here is my scouting report on Salty : From what I can see , Salty is not very good at blocking pitches. A lot get past him. Usually scored as wild pitches , but a better catcher would block more of them.  



    Then, explain why he had one of the best WP per inning rates last year, as well as PB/inn.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    The team is pitching well.  Catcher is a wasteland offensively.  The days of guys putting up crooked numbers from the C position like Pudge Rodriguez and Mike Piazza are long gone.  Salty is at the very worst middle of the pack from an offensive perspective and is one of the better power hitting catchers in MLB.  He K's too much which is why he isn't a top catcher offensively.  Not a lot more we can ask for imo.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    The team is pitching well.  Catcher is a wasteland offensively.  The days of guys putting up crooked numbers from the C position like Pudge Rodriguez and Mike Piazza are long gone.  Salty is at the very worst middle of the pack from an offensive perspective and is one of the better power hitting catchers in MLB.  He K's too much which is why he isn't a top catcher offensively.  Not a lot more we can ask for imo.

    Salty led the team in HRs last year with 25. (He did this with only 405 ABs.)

    He had the 3rd best OPS on the team in Late & Close situations.

    He may not be great on offense, but from the catching position, he's been OK. 

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    Here are the top catchers by innings caught in 2012 with their WP+PB totals:

    1) Montero 1190  43

    2) Wieters  1189  32*

    3) Molina    1161  42

    4) AJ Ellis   1151  48

    5) AJ Pier   1071  62

    6) Martin    1045  51

    7) Suzuki    1014  40

    8) McCann   995    40

    9) Posey     973    28*

    10) Avila     938    41

    11) Buck      915    23*

    12) Rosario  878   84

    13) Hanigan 877   20*

    14) C Ruiz     856   21*

    15) Salty      852   29

    16) Santana 851   54

    17) Barajas 826    32

    18) G Soto   807    30

    19) Arencibia 800  40

    20) Thole     798     36

    21) Lucroy   717     29

    22) J molina 710    36

    23) Flores     687    32

    24) Perez      654    32

    25) Castro     647    46

    26) Mauer      628    23

    27) Olivo        626    34

    28) Ianetta    623    25

    29) Napoli      619    24

    30) McKenry   607   22

     

    * I only see 5 guys with a better WP+PB/Inn rate than Salty in 2012. (I didn't figure out each person's rates, but looking at the ratios, I think Salty is #6 out 30 MLB catchers in preventing balls from getting past him with runners advancing.)

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from lasitter. Show lasitter's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    I don't give Salty credit for pitching success because there's a whole support system for pitchers and for scouting the batters they face. Both pitchers and catchers are told what to expect with upcoming hitters. Is it any wonder that they should both be on the same page?

    There's an abundance of catching depth in the organization. Salty doesn't have the best available arm and he's certainly not the most agile catcher either.

    I don't apologize for being prejudiced, as it will take a lot to make up for his performance in our first collapse year, leading both leagues by a mile in passed balls. He's enough better to be a welcome addition to any number of NL clubs, but I absolutely cringe when I see him in the batter's box in any situation that matters.

    And I think his judgement is faulty. Did he really think he would take second on his solo steal attempt?

    I'd love for his performance to make me wrong about him. I just wish he'd start soon.

     

     

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    ...leading both leagues by a mile in passed balls. 

    You try catching the knuckler.

    About half od Salty's PBs were with Wake in 2011.

    VTek led the league in PBs for 2 years when he used to catch Wake. 

    Salty has improved greatly over his PB & WP per innings since 2011, even if you take out the Wake innings.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

     Both pitchers and catchers are told what to expect with upcoming hitters. Is it any wonder that they should both be on the same page?

    The pitcher should be concentrating on how he is going to execute his next pitch, not what will it be and where, and how he should set up the hitter with a progression of various pitches. Yes, Salty is not alone in deciding what pitches will be thrown and when, but he is out there making the calls. For the most part, the pitchers are following his lead.

    Yes, ultimately it is the pitcher who has to execute the called and agreed upon pitch. I've never come close to saying that a catcher has more influence than the pitcher. I realize some pitchers are more or less influenced than others. I realize that some days a pitcher has it, and others not so much. As harness used to say, "it's those inbetween days that a catcher has the most influence".

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    Here are the top catchers by innings caught in 2012 with their WP+PB totals:

    1) Montero 1190  43

    2) Wieters  1189  32*

    3) Molina    1161  42

    4) AJ Ellis   1151  48

    5) AJ Pier   1071  62

    6) Martin    1045  51

    7) Suzuki    1014  40

    8) McCann   995    40

    9) Posey     973    28*

    10) Avila     938    41

    11) Buck      915    23*

    12) Rosario  878   84

    13) Hanigan 877   20*

    14) C Ruiz     856   21*

    15) Salty      852   29

    16) Santana 851   54

    17) Barajas 826    32

    18) G Soto   807    30

    19) Arencibia 800  40

    20) Thole     798     36

    21) Lucroy   717     29

    22) J molina 710    36

    23) Flores     687    32

    24) Perez      654    32

    25) Castro     647    46

    26) Mauer      628    23

    27) Olivo        626    34

    28) Ianetta    623    25

    29) Napoli      619    24

    30) McKenry   607   22

     

    * I only see 5 guys with a better WP+PB/Inn rate than Salty in 2012. (I didn't figure out each person's rates, but looking at the ratios, I think Salty is #6 out 30 MLB catchers in preventing balls from getting past him with runners advancing.)




    Interesting numbers.  Of course , there is no way to know how many of the W.P.s were close enough for the catcher to have a chance to block. But it does look like he is not doing as badly as I had thought.  Just from observation , it seemed to me that he was not blocking the pitches very well.  But looking at these stats , he seems to be above average.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    Interesting numbers.  Of course , there is no way to know how many of the W.P.s were close enough for the catcher to have a chance to block. But it does look like he is not doing as badly as I had thought.  Just from observation , it seemed to me that he was not blocking the pitches very well.  But looking at these stats , he seems to be above average.

    Salty's a big guy behind the plate. I admit he looks awkward at times, but I have seen him block many many nasty breaking balls and wild throws by a pretty poor staff last year.

    Someone else posted a study that showed he was one of the best pitch framers in MLB. I know that may not be a big deal, but Salty does a lot of the things not captured by stats like CS%.

    He has improved.

    He is young enough and new enough as a FT'er to expect that he can continue to improve.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Interesting numbers.  Of course , there is no way to know how many of the W.P.s were close enough for the catcher to have a chance to block. But it does look like he is not doing as badly as I had thought.  Just from observation , it seemed to me that he was not blocking the pitches very well.  But looking at these stats , he seems to be above average.

    Salty's a big guy behind the plate. I admit he looks awkward at times, but I have seen him block many many nasty breaking balls and wild throws by a pretty poor staff last year.

    Someone else posted a study that showed he was one of the best pitch framers in MLB. I know that may not be a big deal, but Salty does a lot of the things not captured by stats like CS%.

    He has improved.

    He is young enough and new enough as a FT'er to expect that he can continue to improve.

     




    Hes even shown some hitting improvements this year. They're not consistent ones yet, but its a good sign.

     

    He has a terrible uppercut swing that throwing high strikes will expose. Hes had a couple HR this year where hes leveled out that swing and beat the high heat. Like i said, its not consistant, but its a noticable adjustment.

    I dont think hes ever going to be a high OBP, high BA guy. But with his defensive improvements (minus CS%) and if he can maintain a .310+ OBP and a .240ishBA, Ill take that along with his SLG and HR's as a catcher in todays MLB...

    Im really high on Vasquez though. Started looking closer at him last year. Hes adjusted to AA very nicely so far this year. Lavarnway has started hitting more, but his D isnt that good IMO. I dont see him as a FT catcher in MLB.

    Lots of decisions after this year at the catchers positions for the Sox. Its good to have options.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Interesting numbers.  Of course , there is no way to know how many of the W.P.s were close enough for the catcher to have a chance to block. But it does look like he is not doing as badly as I had thought.  Just from observation , it seemed to me that he was not blocking the pitches very well.  But looking at these stats , he seems to be above average.

    Salty's a big guy behind the plate. I admit he looks awkward at times, but I have seen him block many many nasty breaking balls and wild throws by a pretty poor staff last year.

    Someone else posted a study that showed he was one of the best pitch framers in MLB. I know that may not be a big deal, but Salty does a lot of the things not captured by stats like CS%.

    He has improved.

    He is young enough and new enough as a FT'er to expect that he can continue to improve.

     




    Hes even shown some hitting improvements this year. Their not consistent ones yet, but its a good sign.

     

    He has a terrible uppercut swing that throwing high strikes will expose. Hes had a couple HR this year where hes leveled out that swing and beat the high heat. Like i said, its not consistant, but its a noticable adjustment.

    I dont think hes ever going to be a high OBP, high BA guy. But with his defensive improvements (minus CS%) and if he can maintain a .310+ OBP and a .240ishBA, Ill take that along with his SLG and HR's as a catcher in todays MLB...

    Im really high on Vasquez though. Started looking closer at him last year. Hes adjusted to AA very nicely so far this year. Lavarnway has started hitting more, but his D isnt that good IMO. I dont see him as a FT catcher in MLB.

    Lots of decisions after this year at the catchers positions for the Sox. Its good to have options.



    Agree with everything here.

    I like our catcher future, and I'm content with what we have this year. Yes, there are better catchers, but catching is not our worst postion and is pretty close to being a net plus when all is factored into the equation.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    ...leading both leagues by a mile in passed balls. 

    You try catching the knuckler.

    About half od Salty's PBs were with Wake in 2011.

    VTek led the league in PBs for 2 years when he used to catch Wake. 

    Salty has improved greatly over his PB & WP per innings since 2011, even if you take out the Wake innings.



    This I agree 100% on, Tek was a solid defensive catcher but never really learned to catch a knuckler well.  I give a lot of credit to guys like Victor especially, Salty and others who can catch a guy like Wake as good as they did.

    Very difficult thing to do!

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    If it's hard to catch, think about how hard it must be to hit!

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    If it's hard to catch, think about how hard it must be to hit!




    Even the best players only hit the ball 30% of the time.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    I know the sample sizes are puny and unbalanced, but here's a look at the CERA breakdown thus far. Remember, some of these pitchers have been notorious slow starters, but not this year...  (CERA? OPS against and innings pitched )

    9.2+ IP ONLY

    Buch: 1.14 w Salty (.526 in 23.2 inn) / 1.29 w Ross (.570 in 14 inn)

    Lest:  1.89 w Salty (.479 in 19 inn) / 2.84 w Ross (.687 in 12.2 inn)

    Demp: 2.84 w Salty (.557 in 19 inn) / 4.09 w Ross (.783 ib 11 inn)

    Doub: 4.63 w Salty (.788 in 11.2) / 3.60 w Ross (.570 in 5.0)

    Acev: 9.00 w Salty (1.100 in 14) / 7.36 w Ross (.813 in 3.2)

    Bail: 2.45 w Salty (.624 in 7.1) / 0.00 w Ross (.000 in 4)

    Taz: 1.35 w Salty (.565 in 6.2) / 1.93 w Ross (.690 in 4.2)

    Ueh: 0.00 w Salty (.361 in 5.2) / 4.50 w Ross (.938 in 4.0)

    Mort: 6.75 w Salty (.638 in 5.1) / 4.15 w Ross (.771 in 4.1)

     

     

     

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    Bring it on!

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    I know the sample sizes are puny and unbalanced, but here's a look at the CERA breakdown thus far. Remember, some of these pitchers have been notorious slow starters, but not this year...  (CERA? OPS against and innings pitched )



    And yet the overall split now is:

    Ross 2.69

    Salty 4.12

    If this keeps up it'll be the third straight year Salty is more than a run higher than the #2 catcher.  And we'll all be scratching our heads again.

     
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