Time to Bench Salty

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    Remember all the grief I took for saying Iggy might save 100 hits over a full season when compared to the average MLB SS? 

    Maybe I underestimated his defense!

    [/QUOTE]


    You know I am all for giving Iggy a shot at starting SS next year, but doesn't if go without saying that that an average hitting SS might have been responsible for being part of scoring 7 more runs over those same 23-25 games?

    Yes, perhaps, but maybe not for 160 games.

    Of course if Iggy can it close to 250 he is worth it?  Can he?

    I think if Iggy hits about .200-.220 he might break even with the average hitting/fielding SS. If he hits over .230 it would be gravy. .250, he's a definite plus, unless his OBP is .255.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    He called Ross a "dumpster dive", then pretended to have liked the signing all along "as a platoon profile with Sweeney". His lies are legendary, but his pontificating about our nation's decline in morality and ethics is perhaps his biggest hypocrisy.

     


    That was literary gold right there. Well written.

    I have no idea what the team thinks of him. A lot of the media don't seem happy with him, and I know that drives majority opinion...but I also fear the team listens too closely and may cut ties with a player that is ok, and getting better still.

    I want to have faith in Cherrington, but I still don't trust Lucchino to stick his nose where it doesn't belong, and the fact is...I haven't seen enough of Cherrington to really have an idea. I don't think last season is a fair gauge as he was financially handcuffed from Day 1.

    He should have 0 financial restraints now, so I'm curious how he will proceed. Should be an interesting winter, and truth be told, I hope he doesn't do too much. I do NOT like the FA crap....errr, crop I mean, at all.

    [/QUOTE]

    I dont judge Cherrington on this year either. I think LL had his nose in there because he didnt trust the 1st year GM. Also there wasnt much wiggle room with the budget. I think some of the low cost moves worked out great and some not so much. The big trade was a miracle. i wouldve happy just unloading all those contracts, never mind getting 5 players back in the deal.

    The only way things should be done from here on out, and on every team for that matter, is to hire a GM and live and die with his decisions. That is the only way to truly judge him. If the President keeps sticking his nose in, then how can you judge the GM when your never sure whos making the decisions?

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    I dont judge Cherrington on this year either. I think LL had his nose in there because he didnt trust the 1st year GM. Also there wasnt much wiggle room with the budget. I think some of the low cost moves worked out great and some not so much. The big trade was a miracle. i wouldve happy just unloading all those contracts, never mind getting 5 players back in the deal.

    The only way things should be done from here on out, and on every team for that matter, is to hire a GM and live and die with his decisions. That is the only way to truly judge him. If the President keeps sticking his nose in, then how can you judge the GM when your never sure whos making the decisions?

    I think after the failed big ticket signing by Theo, we will always see upper management "invloved" in the big decisions being made by our GM. (Good or Bad, that is the way it will be.) 

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    Sox players Late & Close with 50+ PAs:

    1) Pedey  .786

    2) Ross    .766

    3) Salty   .725

    4) AGon  .702

    5) Papi   .682

    6) Aviles .604

    7) Ells     .544

    8) Nava  .479

    Players with 30-49 PAs:

    1) Ciriaco   1.084

    2) Sweeney .830

    3) Pods       .631

    4) Midds     .621

    5) Lava      .323

     

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    To me, it still comes down to the Papi decision:

    Yes Papi: we might trade Salty or Lava.

    No Papi: we keep both.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    I Vote 'NO' on Question Papi!

    He's been far too mouthy for me. The team has been bad for 3 seasons, and all he's had to talk about was money and years. Somehow, he always wants 2 years. He wanted to years last year to "retire a Sox", and again wants 2 years this off-season.

    Enough listening to his whining. If that isn't enough proof, look at his injury, how he got hurt, and the fact he's still recovering. What are the chances he even plays 100 games next season? Let alone 135+?

    No. Move on. DH/C splits between Lavarnway and Saltalamacchia seems a MUCH better option for the FRANCHISE moving forward. Now, for ticket sales?...

    And for the record, I'm not worried about losing one, or both, in the same game and having to scramble to find someone to catch for a few innings. It's unlikely to happen, but if it did...it'll be for only a few innings and someone will be called up before the next day's game. It's more likely Ortiz hurts himself rounding second again.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I Vote 'NO' on Question Papi!

    He's been far too mouthy for me. The team has been bad for 3 seasons, and all he's had to talk about was money and years. Somehow, he always wants 2 years. He wanted to years last year to "retire a Sox", and again wants 2 years this off-season.

    Enough listening to his whining. If that isn't enough proof, look at his injury, how he got hurt, and the fact he's still recovering. What are the chances he even plays 100 games next season? Let alone 135+?

    No. Move on. DH/C splits between Lavarnway and Saltalamacchia seems a MUCH better option for the FRANCHISE moving forward. Now, for ticket sales?...

    And for the record, I'm not worried about losing one, or both, in the same game and having to scramble to find someone to catch for a few innings. It's unlikely to happen, but if it did...it'll be for only a few innings and someone will be called up before the next day's game. It's more likely Ortiz hurts himself rounding second again.

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm not worried about losing the DH for part of a game if the catcher gets hurt either, but I do worry about Salty and Lava's numbers not warranting DH status.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I Vote 'NO' on Question Papi!

    He's been far too mouthy for me. The team has been bad for 3 seasons, and all he's had to talk about was money and years. Somehow, he always wants 2 years. He wanted to years last year to "retire a Sox", and again wants 2 years this off-season.

    Enough listening to his whining. If that isn't enough proof, look at his injury, how he got hurt, and the fact he's still recovering. What are the chances he even plays 100 games next season? Let alone 135+?

    No. Move on. DH/C splits between Lavarnway and Saltalamacchia seems a MUCH better option for the FRANCHISE moving forward. Now, for ticket sales?...

    And for the record, I'm not worried about losing one, or both, in the same game and having to scramble to find someone to catch for a few innings. It's unlikely to happen, but if it did...it'll be for only a few innings and someone will be called up before the next day's game. It's more likely Ortiz hurts himself rounding second again.

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm not worried about losing the DH for part of a game if the catcher gets hurt either, but I do worry about Salty and Lava's numbers not warranting DH status.

    [/QUOTE]


    They both, however, saw their numbers drop when catching regularly.

    I think Lavarnway has the higher ceiling for a hitter, so I would be happy to see about a 100/62 split, maybe 120/42 with Saltalamacchia catching more often. I tend to think both would benefit from a more even split though.

    At any rate, you may be absolutely correct, but we don't know. I'd like to find out.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    I'm not worried about losing the DH for part of a game if the catcher gets hurt either, but I do worry about Salty and Lava's numbers not warranting DH status.



    They both, however, saw their numbers drop when catching regularly.

    I think Lavarnway has the higher ceiling for a hitter, so I would be happy to see about a 100/62 split, maybe 120/42 with Saltalamacchia catching more often. I tend to think both would benefit from a more even split though.

    At any rate, you may be absolutely correct, but we don't know. I'd like to find out.

     

    I did a study on how much better Salty hit after a day off. I still don't see him as being good enough to be a DH on a contending team, but since I don't see us seriously contending in 2013, I'd be OK with him DH'ing a few games here and there, as a way to rest more.

    I agree that Lava has a higher offensive ceiling going forward. I'm fine wtih letting him DH 100 games and catching 60 in 2013. I like the idea of signing Ross for 2 years, so if Lava does not work out, Ross could DH in 2014. Since Lava will probably catch vs all HPs next year, Ross could DH vs LHPs in 2013 and play LF vs some RHPs.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I'm not worried about losing the DH for part of a game if the catcher gets hurt either, but I do worry about Salty and Lava's numbers not warranting DH status.



    They both, however, saw their numbers drop when catching regularly.

    I think Lavarnway has the higher ceiling for a hitter, so I would be happy to see about a 100/62 split, maybe 120/42 with Saltalamacchia catching more often. I tend to think both would benefit from a more even split though.

    At any rate, you may be absolutely correct, but we don't know. I'd like to find out.

     

    I did a study on how much better Salty hit after a day off. I still don't see him as being good enough to be a DH on a contending team, but since I don't see us seriously contending in 2013, I'd be OK with him DH'ing a few games here and there, as a way to rest more.

    I agree that Lava has a higher offensive ceiling going forward. I'm fine wtih letting him DH 100 games and catching 60 in 2013. I like the idea of signing Ross for 2 years, so if Lava does not work out, Ross could DH in 2014. Since Lava will probably catch vs all HPs next year, Ross could DH vs LHPs in 2013 and play LF vs some RHPs.

    [/QUOTE]

    So you seriously think they aren't going to resign David Ortiz?  Better yet, they are going to DH a young catcher who needs to catch for a "100 games?"  A catcher who hasn't exactly lit up Major League pitching in his time in the Big Leagues?  Interesting, Moon...

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    So you seriously think they aren't going to resign David Ortiz? Better yet, they are going DH a young catcher who needs to catch for a "100 games?"  A catcher who hasn't exactly lit up Major League pitching in his time in the Big Leagues?  Interesting, Moon...

     

    I don't know if Papi will be back. I think Ben makes him a higher than market offer and it's up to him. My guess is 60% Papi is back for maybe $22M/2 or $11M/1 with a club option and $2M buyout.

    This discussion was based on the chance that Papi walks.

    I've also said I am fine with trading Salty, since he will be a FA after 2013, and Lava needs time behind the plate not at DH.

    I am not a Salty basher anymore, however. I think he came a long way in 2012 and may end up being a miuch better catcher going forward than Lava, but it would take a gamble to extend him or to wait until after 2013 to decide to extend or not.

    Finally, I'm Ok with experimenting and taking chances (like letting Lava DH and back-up catch for one day) in 2013, since I do not think we can win it all.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I dont judge Cherrington on this year either. I think LL had his nose in there because he didnt trust the 1st year GM. Also there wasnt much wiggle room with the budget. I think some of the low cost moves worked out great and some not so much. The big trade was a miracle. i wouldve happy just unloading all those contracts, never mind getting 5 players back in the deal.

    The only way things should be done from here on out, and on every team for that matter, is to hire a GM and live and die with his decisions. That is the only way to truly judge him. If the President keeps sticking his nose in, then how can you judge the GM when your never sure whos making the decisions?

    I think after the failed big ticket signing by Theo, we will always see upper management "invloved" in the big decisions being made by our GM. (Good or Bad, that is the way it will be.) 

    [/QUOTE]


    Big ticket players always have upper management involved. I understand that. Im talking the other, less expensive everyday deals and situations...

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    So you seriously think they aren't going to resign David Ortiz? Better yet, they are going DH a young catcher who needs to catch for a "100 games?"  A catcher who hasn't exactly lit up Major League pitching in his time in the Big Leagues?  Interesting, Moon...

     

    I don't know if Papi will be back. I think Ben makes him a higher than market offer and it's up to him. My guess is 60% Papi is back for maybe $22M/2 or $11M/1 with a club option and $2M buyout.

    This discussion was based on the chance that Papi walks.

    I've also said I am fine with trading Salty, since he will be a FA after 2013, and Lava needs time behind the plate not at DH.

    I am not a Salty basher anymore, however. I think he came a long way in 2012 and may end up being a miuch better catcher going forward than Lava, but it would take a gamble to extend him or to wait until after 2013 to decide to extend or not.

    Finally, I'm Ok with experimenting and taking chances (like letting Lava DH and back-up catch for one day) in 2013, since I do not think we can win it all.

    [/QUOTE]


    Just read that Papi is looking for the same deal he wanted last year (which they shouldve done), which is a 2yr/25mm deal.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    [/QUOTE]


    Just read that Papi is looking for the same deal he wanted last year (which they shouldve done), which is a 2yr/25mm deal.

    [/QUOTE]


    And if he performs in 2013 under that deal...what'll he start to do then?

    Talk about 'money', 'years', and 'respect' again. He's done it yearly for 3+ now. I see no reason why he will quietly play under ANY contract unless they say "we'll pay you 11 per, for as long as you decide to stay here big guy, we love you."

    He hasn't made a difference in 5 years, and the rest of baseball has moved on from the DH position. He'd get maybe, MAYBE a 1 year deal for 6 million elsewhere. But they should just give him twice that for two years? Why?

    Again, what are the chances he plays 100 games next year? And if you have to think about it (which anyone would), he's not worth that kind of money.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I Vote 'NO' on Question Papi!

    He's been far too mouthy for me. The team has been bad for 3 seasons, and all he's had to talk about was money and years. Somehow, he always wants 2 years. He wanted to years last year to "retire a Sox", and again wants 2 years this off-season.

    Enough listening to his whining. If that isn't enough proof, look at his injury, how he got hurt, and the fact he's still recovering. What are the chances he even plays 100 games next season? Let alone 135+?

    No. Move on. DH/C splits between Lavarnway and Saltalamacchia seems a MUCH better option for the FRANCHISE moving forward. Now, for ticket sales?...

    And for the record, I'm not worried about losing one, or both, in the same game and having to scramble to find someone to catch for a few innings. It's unlikely to happen, but if it did...it'll be for only a few innings and someone will be called up before the next day's game. It's more likely Ortiz hurts himself rounding second again.

    [/QUOTE]

    Not sure, but over his time here hes played 140+ games 3 times and 150+ 4 times. He missed time when he got hit on the wrist. Thats pretty durable.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    [/QUOTE]


    Just read that Papi is looking for the same deal he wanted last year (which they shouldve done), which is a 2yr/25mm deal.

    [/QUOTE]


    And if he performs in 2013 under that deal...what'll he start to do then?

    Talk about 'money', 'years', and 'respect' again. He's done it yearly for 3+ now. I see no reason why he will quietly play under ANY contract unless they say "we'll pay you 11 per, for as long as you decide to stay here big guy, we love you."

    He hasn't made a difference in 5 years, and the rest of baseball has moved on from the DH position. He'd get maybe, MAYBE a 1 year deal for 6 million elsewhere. But they should just give him twice that for two years? Why?

    Again, what are the chances he plays 100 games next year? And if you have to think about it (which anyone would), he's not worth that kind of money.

    [/QUOTE]


    I doubt it he complains anymore. I would give him the deal but make the 2nd year a vesting option based on games played. That would be very fair IMO.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    Assuming he passes the physical, I don't think the risk is that gret that Papi will get hurt again or decline steeply in 2013. I think his market value might be higher than $6M/1, but certainly not $12-15M/1 or $25M/2.

    That being said, this is Papi we are talking about. He's legend, even if from too long ago. I remember the Sox paying Schilling $8M his last year knowing they might not get a cent's worth out of him that year (2008).

    Papi should retire in Boston, but that doesn't mean we pay a king's ransom to keep him here. It's not as easy as some people think to just offer him $1M more than the highest offer within reason. GMs do not always tell what their offers are, and agents can lie about how much other teams are offering. This makes it somwhat of a guessing game that could backfire on management, if Papi signs elsewhere to a reasonable deal ($7-9M/1? or $17M/2?). I'm sure we'd hear calls of racism from some fans and media or worse.

    I do not think Papi is worth $25M/2, but if he plays well and stays healthy, he might be worth close to that. That's a big "if" though. I like the vesting option idea based on games played or PAs, but I think there should also be a buyout for Papi and the Sox. Perhaps a deal like this:

    2013: $10M base with $1M bonus for 450 PAs and $1M more for 575 PAs.

    2014: $7M base, or $8M base if 450 PAs in '13, or $9M base with 575 PAs in '13. (Same incentive bonuses attached to 2014 base) Club buyout of $2M. Papi buyout of $1M. This basically guarantees $12M/1 or $17M/2 minimum with a max of $14M/1 or $23M/2.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Assuming he passes the physical, I don't think the risk is that gret that Papi will get hurt again or decline steeply in 2013. I think his market value might be higher than $6M/1, but certainly not $12-15M/1 or $25M/2.

    That being said, this is Papi we are talking about. He's legend, even if from too long ago. I remember the Sox paying Schilling $8M his last year knowing they might not get a cent's worth out of him that year (2008).

    Papi should retire in Boston, but that doesn't mean we pay a king's ransom to keep him here. It's not as easy as some people think to just offer him $1M more than the highest offer within reason. GMs do not always tell what their offers are, and agents can lie about how much other teams are offering. This makes it somwhat of a guessing game that could backfire on management, if Papi signs elsewhere to a reasonable deal ($7-9M/1? or $17M/2?). I'm sure we'd hear calls of racism from some fans and media or worse.

    I do not think Papi is worth $25M/2, but if he plays well and stays healthy, he might be worth close to that. That's a big "if" though. I like the vesting option idea based on games played or PAs, but I think there should also be a buyout for Papi and the Sox. Perhaps a deal like this:

    2013: $10M base with $1M bonus for 450 PAs and $1M more for 575 PAs.

    2014: $7M base, or $8M base if 450 PAs in '13, or $9M base with 575 PAs in '13. (Same incentive bonuses attached to 2014 base) Club buyout of $2M. Papi buyout of $1M. This basically guarantees $12M/1 or $17M/2 minimum with a max of $14M/1 or $23M/2.

    [/QUOTE]


    That sounds like a fair deal for both sides Moon. Papi earned his money he has made throughout the years, which tops 100mm with the Sox.

    Now I believe because of his stature and what he has meant to this team and city, he should be offered a deal but should have to earn some of it due to his age and the realistic possibility of taking longer to heal due to his age, should he get hurt again.

    The one you proposed, or something very similar, would be more than fair for both sides.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    That sounds like a fair deal for both sides Moon. Papi earned his money he has made throughout the years, which tops 100mm with the Sox.

    Now I believe because of his stature and what he has meant to this team and city, he should be offered a deal but should have to earn some of it due to his age and the realistic possibility of taking longer to heal due to his age, should he get hurt again.

    The one you proposed, or something very similar, would be more than fair for both sides.

    I worry about Papi's seeming loss of "clutchability" over the last 3-4 years. I know losing Manny for "protection" has something to do with it, but still...

    On the surface, taking away all the emotion and historic legend status, paying Papi $8-12M for 2013 makes little sense. We aren't going to seriously compete, and I'm not sure if Papi really "brings people to the park" anymore (at least that many). However, I view Papi like Schilling in 2007. He needs to retire here in Boston. He's the last of the legneds from 2004 & 2007. It seems like decades ago, now. 

    Keep Papi, but don't get foolish and pay him many millions more than another team might pay him.

    (Sidenote: there will be one more AL team next year, and one more DH slot open.)

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    I think Toronto, Baltimore and even the NYY (If A-Rod leaves) would offer papi a nice deal...

    Back to Salty...

    Ive read your posts Moon about getting rid of guys that will be FA for younger prospects, and I agree withmost of the names you mentioned. I still think that we cant afford to disrupt the catcher position just yet though. Lavarnway is not ready and there should be a Salty/lav platoon IMO. I mean unless we got a stud catcher somehow, but that is highly unlikely.

    Id rather the pitching staff feel comfortable next year with all the change that is going on with the team. I also just have a feeling that Salty is going to put it all together next year. Sure, I could be wrong but for 2-4mm I dont think its that big of a risk. If were not in it by the ASB, then we could deal him. He would be worth more then.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    I think Toronto, Baltimore and even the NYY (If A-Rod leaves) would offer papi a nice deal...

    Back to Salty...

    Ive read your posts Moon about getting rid of guys that will be FA for younger prospects, and I agree withmost of the names you mentioned. I still think that we cant afford to disrupt the catcher position just yet though. Lavarnway is not ready and there should be a Salty/lav platoon IMO. I mean unless we got a stud catcher somehow, but that is highly unlikely.

    Id rather the pitching staff feel comfortable next year with all the change that is going on with the team. I also just have a feeling that Salty is going to put it all together next year. Sure, I could be wrong but for 2-4mm I dont think its that big of a risk. If were not in it by the ASB, then we could deal him. He would be worth more then.

     

    I agree. The catcher position is so valuable and often fragile that keeping both Salty and lava makes a lot of sense, especially if Papi bolts and we can use Lava at DH sometimes.

    Although I have mentioned trading Salty, because he will be a FA after 2013, I also have mentioned a deal like Ellsbury for Sergio Romo and Hector Sanchez, who is under team control for much longer than Salty. 

    Salty may have a great 2013 season and then bolt. There is some merit to the idea of extending him now and make the gamble he will continue to improve. If we don't extend him, losing him for nothing is a no gain possibility.

    Now that we only get supplemental picks if a player is offered $13M or so, we'd get nothing for losing guys like Salty.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I think Toronto, Baltimore and even the NYY (If A-Rod leaves) would offer papi a nice deal...

    Back to Salty...

    Ive read your posts Moon about getting rid of guys that will be FA for younger prospects, and I agree withmost of the names you mentioned. I still think that we cant afford to disrupt the catcher position just yet though. Lavarnway is not ready and there should be a Salty/lav platoon IMO. I mean unless we got a stud catcher somehow, but that is highly unlikely.

    Id rather the pitching staff feel comfortable next year with all the change that is going on with the team. I also just have a feeling that Salty is going to put it all together next year. Sure, I could be wrong but for 2-4mm I dont think its that big of a risk. If were not in it by the ASB, then we could deal him. He would be worth more then.

     

    I agree. The catcher position is so valuable and often fragile that keeping both Salty and lava makes a lot of sense, especially if Papi bolts and we can use Lava at DH sometimes.

    Although I have mentioned trading Salty, because he will be a FA after 2013, I also have mentioned a deal like Ellsbury for Sergio Romo and Hector Sanchez, who is under team control for much longer than Salty. 

    Salty may have a great 2013 season and then bolt. There is some merit to the idea of extending him now and make the gamble he will continue to improve. If we don't extend him, losing him for nothing is a no gain possibility.

    [/QUOTE]


    I know most guys would embrace FA, but If Salty does do well he seems to be the kind of guy to accept a fair offer if presented with one instead of opting for FA.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I think Toronto, Baltimore and even the NYY (If A-Rod leaves) would offer papi a nice deal...

    Back to Salty...

    Ive read your posts Moon about getting rid of guys that will be FA for younger prospects, and I agree withmost of the names you mentioned. I still think that we cant afford to disrupt the catcher position just yet though. Lavarnway is not ready and there should be a Salty/lav platoon IMO. I mean unless we got a stud catcher somehow, but that is highly unlikely.

    Id rather the pitching staff feel comfortable next year with all the change that is going on with the team. I also just have a feeling that Salty is going to put it all together next year. Sure, I could be wrong but for 2-4mm I dont think its that big of a risk. If were not in it by the ASB, then we could deal him. He would be worth more then.

     

    I agree. The catcher position is so valuable and often fragile that keeping both Salty and lava makes a lot of sense, especially if Papi bolts and we can use Lava at DH sometimes.

    Although I have mentioned trading Salty, because he will be a FA after 2013, I also have mentioned a deal like Ellsbury for Sergio Romo and Hector Sanchez, who is under team control for much longer than Salty. 

    Salty may have a great 2013 season and then bolt. There is some merit to the idea of extending him now and make the gamble he will continue to improve. If we don't extend him, losing him for nothing is a no gain possibility.

    [/QUOTE]


    I know most guys would embrace FA, but If Salty does do well he seems to be the kind of guy to accept a fair offer if presented with one instead of opting for FA.

    [/QUOTE]


    You may be right, and I doubt if Salty has a good year, the Sox will low-ball him, so keeping him makes some sense.

    One thing working against Salty staying with Boston is that he doesn't seem to be helped by the park as much as other hitters. He had the same OBP home and away this year and more HRs on the road (but a .038 worse SLG%). Last year he had a .031 better OPS on the road.

    As I have said a few times on this lengthy thread, I have come near full circle on Salty since this time last year. I saw a great improvement in his game, and I am willing to see if the trend continues.

    The one big point in favor of dealing him is ...                                                                 1)  We can get a nice prospect or two for him.                                                                    2)  If he stinks next year for another team, we look like geniuses.                                  3) If he has a good to great year for another team next year, we can sign him as a FA.

    In theory, we can't lose by trading him, except to make us worse in year 2013 ONLY- a year I consider "lost" anyways. 2013 is certainly a bridge year.

     

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I think Toronto, Baltimore and even the NYY (If A-Rod leaves) would offer papi a nice deal...

    Back to Salty...

    Ive read your posts Moon about getting rid of guys that will be FA for younger prospects, and I agree withmost of the names you mentioned. I still think that we cant afford to disrupt the catcher position just yet though. Lavarnway is not ready and there should be a Salty/lav platoon IMO. I mean unless we got a stud catcher somehow, but that is highly unlikely.

    Id rather the pitching staff feel comfortable next year with all the change that is going on with the team. I also just have a feeling that Salty is going to put it all together next year. Sure, I could be wrong but for 2-4mm I dont think its that big of a risk. If were not in it by the ASB, then we could deal him. He would be worth more then.

     

    I agree. The catcher position is so valuable and often fragile that keeping both Salty and lava makes a lot of sense, especially if Papi bolts and we can use Lava at DH sometimes.

    Although I have mentioned trading Salty, because he will be a FA after 2013, I also have mentioned a deal like Ellsbury for Sergio Romo and Hector Sanchez, who is under team control for much longer than Salty. 

    Salty may have a great 2013 season and then bolt. There is some merit to the idea of extending him now and make the gamble he will continue to improve. If we don't extend him, losing him for nothing is a no gain possibility.

    [/QUOTE]


    I know most guys would embrace FA, but If Salty does do well he seems to be the kind of guy to accept a fair offer if presented with one instead of opting for FA.

    [/QUOTE]


    You may be right, and I doubt if Salty has a good year, the Sox will low-ball him, so keeping him makes some sense.

    One thing working against Salty staying with Boston is that he doesn't seem to be helped by the park as much as other hitters. He had the same OBP home and away this year and more HRs on the road (but a .038 worse SLG%). Last year he had a .031 better OPS on the road.

    As I have said a few times on this lengthy thread, I have come near full circle on Salty since this time last year. I saw a great improvement in his game, and I am willing to see if the trend continues.

    The one big point in favor of dealing him is ...                                                                 1)  We can get a nice prospect or two for him.                                                                    2)  If he stinks next year for another team, we look like geniuses.                                  3) If he has a good to great year for another team next year, we can sign him as a FA.

    In theory, we can't lose by trading him, except to make us worse in year 2013 ONLY- a year I consider "lost" anyways. 2013 is certainly a bridge year.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    I think they can compete with health, good moves and a better clubhouse atmosphere. But even if I did consider it a "bridge year", I would still keep Salty to see it through. Honestly, Im not so sure why I believe so much that he will be a solid catcher and even an AS one day (yup, call me crazy) But with Tek back, Farrell back and a noticeable improvement on defense, I just think hes going to put it all together in 2013 and we will see a better AVG and OBP to go along with his much improved defense. Even with the possible trade and re-sign after next year, that just interrupts the process and IMO, Lav is nowhere near ready yet and we have no other viable options. It would just add to the shopping list this winter.

    Lavarnway would benefit more with another year in AAA if we really want to see what hes made of as well. Not as punishment, but strictly for developmental reasons.

    I understand all your points, and they are all valid. I just cant seem to bring myself to agree with trading Salty. Im the kind of person to finish what has been started if it makes sense. Salty makes sense in regards to seeing improvement, having a low salary, and is the best option we have.

    Now that we have, or at least the word is, we will get Adam Lind in the Farrell deal what do you see us doing with him? IMO, depth in AAA.

    I see 2 suitors right now for Ellsbury. Cincinnati and Texas...

    1b options are Laroche (I think Nats will keep him though), newly acquired Lind, V-Mart in a trade, Morse in a trade, Mauro Gomez, Kotchman, bring Loney back, Justin Morneau (I like this one), and Jerry Sands.

    I think a 1yr maybe 2yr deal for OF is the way to go, besides giving Ross 2-3yrs. I like Torii Hunter (Angels do too) Ludwick, but he wants more like 2-3 yrs like Ross. It looks as if the A's will be letting Johnny Gomes walk. Delmon young on a longer deal. Angel Pagan (interesting name) If they let Ells walk. Good lead-off guy. Siezmore as a dark horse on a ML deal and invite to ST. the sox have a couple guys who will see playing time in the Fenway OF in 2013-14, so I dont see a Michael Bourn, swisher or Shane Victorino who are looking for long-term deals in FA  or BJ/Justin Upton type trades which will cost too much in prospects for the production.

    I like your Ideas on pitching..

    Thoughts?

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    I think they can compete with health, good moves and a better clubhouse atmosphere.

    Being younger, we should have less injuries, but to me, we need too much to all happen at the same time to be serious contenders in 2013. We may contend for a shot at a wild card, but I doubt even that. I know- look at the Cards, but this is not a team even close to what the Cards have been the last 2 years.

    But even if I did consider it a "bridge year", I would still keep Salty to see it through. Honestly, Im not so sure why I believe so much that he will be a solid catcher and even an AS one day (yup, call me crazy) But with Tek back, Farrell back and a noticeable improvement on defense, I just think hes going to put it all together in 2013 and we will see a better AVG and OBP to go along with his much improved defense. Even with the possible trade and re-sign after next year, that just interrupts the process and IMO, Lav is nowhere near ready yet and we have no other viable options. It would just add to the shopping list this winter.

    I am very optimistic about Salty in 2013 as well, and your reasoning has added to my confidence. Part of me wants to try and extend him now; I feel so good about his progress. My big concern is that he will have a great year in 2013, but it won't help us win a ring, and then he will sign elsewhere, or if he stays will cost us, he will cost an arm and a leg.

    Lavarnway would benefit more with another year in AAA if we really want to see what hes made of as well. Not as punishment, but strictly for developmental reasons.

    I agree, but also think that if Papo walks, he'd be OK DH'ing vs RHPs and catching 60 -70 games primarily vs LHPs. He'd learn our staff and be ready to take over in 2014, if Salty bolts.

    I understand all your points, and they are all valid. I just cant seem to bring myself to agree with trading Salty. Im the kind of person to finish what has been started if it makes sense. Salty makes sense in regards to seeing improvement, having a low salary, and is the best option we have.

    If I thought we could realistically compete in 2013, I'd be all for keeping Salty. Perhaps, if we make some big & bold moves this winter, I'll think we have a legitimate shot in 2013, and then I'd say keep Salty.

    Now that we have, or at least the word is, we will get Adam Lind in the Farrell deal what do you see us doing with him? IMO, depth in AAA.

    I see 2 suitors right now for Ellsbury. Cincinnati and Texas...

    I think SF might be a choice as well. I think Ells would fit in nicely in SF.

    1b options are Laroche (I think Nats will keep him though), newly acquired Lind, V-Mart in a trade, Morse in a trade, Mauro Gomez, Kotchman, bring Loney back, Justin Morneau (I like this one), and Jerry Sands.

    LaRoche will not be a FA. At worst, the Nats will sign and trade him or Morse. Morneau is just a bridge, but a good player none the less. notin mentioned K Morales as an option. 

    Long term, I could see us moving Middlebrooks or Bogaerts to 1B as Bogaerts or Cecchini becomes our 3Bman.

    I think a 1yr maybe 2yr deal for OF is the way to go, besides giving Ross 2-3yrs. I like Torii Hunter (Angels do too) Ludwick, but he wants more like 2-3 yrs like Ross. It looks as if the A's will be letting Johnny Gomes walk. Delmon young on a longer deal. Angel Pagan (interesting name) If they let Ells walk. Good lead-off guy. Siezmore as a dark horse on a ML deal and invite to ST. the sox have a couple guys who will see playing time in the Fenway OF in 2013-14, so I dont see a Michael Bourn, swisher or Shane Victorino who are looking for long-term deals in FA or BJ/Justin Upton type trades which will cost too much in prospects for the production.

    Of all these guys, I like Bourn most of all, unless we can get Ludwick (mutual option).

    I like your Ideas on pitching..

    Thoughts?

    I'm thinking more and more about Anibal Sanchez as my first FA choice. I'd also like to see us go after McCarthy, and if we can't get him take a chance on Marcum, J Sanchez, or J Saunders. I'd also be fine with Edwin Jackson. I like Peavy, but think he will end up getting a long term deal somewhere, and do not want us repeating the longterm deal mistake again. Greinke could help us get closer to competing in 2013 and 2014, but he will cost too much. I'd prefer to wait for a better guy to go all out for.

     

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