Time to Bench Salty

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Ice-Cream's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    I doubt Oakland needs an outfielder because they already have Cespedes, Reddick, Young (via a recent trade with Arizona) and Coco (who I think Oakland will trade).

    Oakland has a surplus of good starting pichers.  I think Beane would be willing to trade Anderson for the right players.

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree, but they might not be in their usual rebuild mode for 2013. They would want some offense or a big upgrade at a position of weakness. We can give them some, but we may need to involve a 3rd team to get the deal done.

    Maybe Ellsbury to the 3rd team and that team gives Oakland someone they need for 2013, then we give them Salty or Lava, a pitcher from Tazawa, Aceves or Morales, and a 3Bman for the future in Cecchini. (We may get Coco as part of the deal to take Ells slot and bridge to Bradley.)

    [/QUOTE]


    if we are getting rid of ells then i would really really want cody ross. we know what we're going to get with him.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    He's another J Gomes. He can't field in RF. If got Coco for CF (which I assume you are responding to), we'd need a LF'er who hits righties well, not Ross.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    Oakland has a surplus of good starting pichers.  I think Beane would be willing to trade Anderson for the right players.

    They still need a catcher, so I know we can start by giving up Lava.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from slicksteve38. Show slicksteve38's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Oakland has a surplus of good starting pichers.  I think Beane would be willing to trade Anderson for the right players.

    They still need a catcher, so I know we can start by giving up Lava.

    [/QUOTE]


    Why would anyone want Lava? I dont see what everyone's fascination is with this guy. he's a below average defensive catcher who hasnt proven he can handle a pitching staff, and hasnt even proven he can hit at the major league level. If Oakland is thinking playoffs this year, they arent going for an unproven catcher to handle a young pitching staff.

    This goes back to my same issue with the Salty bashers.....please dont expect Lavarnway to come in and be anything other than the .157 hitter he was last season.  He had 2 HR's in 153 at bats...Salty had 25 HR is 405 AB.....and hit for higher average (.22 isnt exactly batting title stuff, but its higher than .157).

    AND Lavarnway's defense is terrible...so I just cant see the hype here. Plus he is 25...if he was even decent, wouldnt he have made a MLB by now? Salty is only two years older, and i'm sorry but Salty has a career .239 average and Lavarnway has a .172...with an OBP of (gulp) .230....i'm still waiting for the positives in Lavarnway's game......anyone?

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to slicksteve38's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Oakland has a surplus of good starting pichers.  I think Beane would be willing to trade Anderson for the right players.

    They still need a catcher, so I know we can start by giving up Lava.

    [/QUOTE]


    Why would anyone want Lava? I dont see what everyone's fascination is with this guy. he's a below average defensive catcher who hasnt proven he can handle a pitching staff, and hasnt even proven he can hit at the major league level. If Oakland is thinking playoffs this year, they arent going for an unproven catcher to handle a young pitching staff.

    This goes back to my same issue with the Salty bashers.....please dont expect Lavarnway to come in and be anything other than the .157 hitter he was last season.  He had 2 HR's in 153 at bats...Salty had 25 HR is 405 AB.....and hit for higher average (.22 isnt exactly batting title stuff, but its higher than .157).

    AND Lavarnway's defense is terrible...so I just cant see the hype here. Plus he is 25...if he was even decent, wouldnt he have made a MLB by now? Salty is only two years older, and i'm sorry but Salty has a career .239 average and Lavarnway has a .172...with an OBP of (gulp) .230....i'm still waiting for the positives in Lavarnway's game......anyone?

     

    [/QUOTE]


    he was the defensive catcher of the year in the IL last season.. that was his goal in the minors last season. we all knew he could hit (september 2011) the ball well but his defense was highly suspect. so he was told 2012 was to work  behind the plate. and he did just that, he improved immensely but his offense suffered. he will likely start in AAA and refine his total game this year to be ready for 2014 (salty is in the final year of his contract).

    obviously if salty really breaks out or lava falters things can change

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    ...but his defense was highly suspect. so he was told 2012 was to work  behind the plate. and he did just that, he improved immensely but his offense suffered. ...

    So, he forgot what he "learned" after being called up to the big club?

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from slicksteve38. Show slicksteve38's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    thank you moon....i didnt think he looked good at all behind the dish...his defense was average at best.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to slicksteve38's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    thank you moon....i didnt think he looked good at all behind the dish...his defense was average at best.

    [/QUOTE]

    You are being way to kind. He was a stautue back there.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    ...but his defense was highly suspect. so he was told 2012 was to work  behind the plate. and he did just that, he improved immensely but his offense suffered. ...

    So, he forgot what he "learned" after being called up to the big club?

    [/QUOTE]


    Exactly! He was very slow and lumbering behind the dish. He didnt get to balls in the dirt that were routine plays for Salty. This guy is NOT a catcher. Hes a 1b/OF with massive power that they are stifling by making him catch. Why, because he might have more value as one? Sorry, but if he hits for a high average, OBP and hit the longball like he did in the ML, He would be a top 1b. Catching is ruining his best tool, his offense.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedsoxProspects. Show RedsoxProspects's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    Salty has something close to around 369 mlb level games under his belt now and last year was his best season offensively. Many here raved about his power and his OPS etc...but drill down in the numbers and he still was at a wRC+ of 95, or 5% less production than the average mlb level player. EVERY defensive stat stunk like a Mississippi mule but many here think he is still a prospect to a degree and possibly just now developing into one of the leading catchers in the league. Statements like comparing him to other catchers in the league does do him some justice but we have one year of control remaining and he is already making more than he is worth this year after his arb is decided IMO. The bottom line is he now has 369 mlb games under his belt and in his best year ever he still is significantly under average as a hitter and his defensive numbers are God Awful.

    There is no doubt that LAvarnway did not put up good numbers at all in his callup but I would STILL bet he is the better catcher going forward.

    And beyond that Swihart looks to be absolutely a winner in his development both defensively and offensively. A possible all star level catcher for years. They finally drafted an athlete at the catcher position. 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to RedsoxProspects' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Salty has something close to around 369 mlb level games under his belt now and last year was his best season offensively. Many here raved about his power and his OPS etc...but drill down in the numbers and he still was at a wRC+ of 95, or 5% less production than the average mlb level player. EVERY defensive stat stunk like a Mississippi mule but many here think he is still a prospect to a degree and possibly just now developing into one of the leading catchers in the league. Statements like comparing him to other catchers in the league does do him some justice but we have one year of control remaining and he is already making more than he is worth this year after his arb is decided IMO. The bottom line is he now has 369 mlb games under his belt and in his best year ever he still is significantly under average as a hitter and his defensive numbers are God Awful.

    There is no doubt that LAvarnway did not put up good numbers at all in his callup but I would STILL bet he is the better catcher going forward.

    And beyond that Swihart looks to be absolutely a winner in his development both defensively and offensively. A possible all star level catcher for years. They finally drafted an athlete at the catcher position. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Im more excited about Swihart (If he sticks at C) and Vasquez than I am Lavarnway catching. Lav is about offense, and hes great at it. catching only stifles his best attribute.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    Salty has something close to around 369 mlb level games under his belt now and last year was his best season offensively. Many here raved about his power and his OPS etc...but drill down in the numbers and he still was at a wRC+ of 95, or 5% less production than the average mlb level player.

     

    Boom, comparing catcher offensive numbers with the league average will almost always show this. Try comapring his wRC+ with the top 30 catchers by PAs in MLB last year and he's tied at 17. He was tied at 16 on WAR. That's pretty average to me for those stats anyways.

     

    EVERY defensive stat stunk like a Mississippi mule but many here think he is still a prospect to a degree and possibly just now developing into one of the leading catchers in the league.

     

    Boom, every stat? Didn't we go through this last summer? What about WP per IP, PB per IP, WP + PB per IP (he was, I think, top 6.)

    Statements like comparing him to other catchers in the league does do him some justice but we have one year of control remaining and he is already making more than he is worth this year after his arb is decided IMO. The bottom line is he now has 369 mlb games under his belt and in his best year ever he still is significantly under average as a hitter and his defensive numbers are God Awful.

    Almost all his n umbers improved.

    His 369 games were spread out over 6 seasons. How many players can really learn a position by playing 61 games a year? Plus, they played him at 1B for a while.

     

    There is no doubt that LAvarnway did not put up good numbers at all in his callup but I would STILL bet he is the better catcher going forward.

    I agree and hope so, because we will be trading Salty real soon.

    And beyond that Swihart looks to be absolutely a winner in his development both defensively and offensively. A possible all star level catcher for years. They finally drafted an athlete at the catcher position. 

    YES! YES! YES!

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Salty has something close to around 369 mlb level games under his belt now and last year was his best season offensively. Many here raved about his power and his OPS etc...but drill down in the numbers and he still was at a wRC+ of 95, or 5% less production than the average mlb level player.

     

    Boom, comparing catcher offensive numbers with the league average will almost always show this. Try comapring his wRC+ with the top 30 catchers by PAs in MLB last year and he's tied at 17. He was tied at 16 on WAR. That's pretty average to me for those stats anyways.

     

    EVERY defensive stat stunk like a Mississippi mule but many here think he is still a prospect to a degree and possibly just now developing into one of the leading catchers in the league.

     

    Boom, every stat? Didn't we go through this last summer? What about WP per IP, PB per IP, WP + PB per IP (he was, I think, top 6.)

    Statements like comparing him to other catchers in the league does do him some justice but we have one year of control remaining and he is already making more than he is worth this year after his arb is decided IMO. The bottom line is he now has 369 mlb games under his belt and in his best year ever he still is significantly under average as a hitter and his defensive numbers are God Awful.

    Almost all his n umbers improved.

    His 369 games were spread out over 6 seasons. How many players can really learn a position by playing 61 games a year? Plus, they played him at 1B for a while.

     

    There is no doubt that LAvarnway did not put up good numbers at all in his callup but I would STILL bet he is the better catcher going forward.

    I agree and hope so, because we will be trading Salty real soon.

    And beyond that Swihart looks to be absolutely a winner in his development both defensively and offensively. A possible all star level catcher for years. They finally drafted an athlete at the catcher position. 

    YES! YES! YES!

    [/QUOTE]


    Also, Salty was one of the best pitch framers in the game. Top 5 I believe, if not top 3. Russell martin was first I think.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Salty has something close to around 369 mlb level games under his belt now and last year was his best season offensively. Many here raved about his power and his OPS etc...but drill down in the numbers and he still was at a wRC+ of 95, or 5% less production than the average mlb level player.

     

    Boom, comparing catcher offensive numbers with the league average will almost always show this. Try comapring his wRC+ with the top 30 catchers by PAs in MLB last year and he's tied at 17. He was tied at 16 on WAR. That's pretty average to me for those stats anyways.

     

    EVERY defensive stat stunk like a Mississippi mule but many here think he is still a prospect to a degree and possibly just now developing into one of the leading catchers in the league.

     

    Boom, every stat? Didn't we go through this last summer? What about WP per IP, PB per IP, WP + PB per IP (he was, I think, top 6.)

    Statements like comparing him to other catchers in the league does do him some justice but we have one year of control remaining and he is already making more than he is worth this year after his arb is decided IMO. The bottom line is he now has 369 mlb games under his belt and in his best year ever he still is significantly under average as a hitter and his defensive numbers are God Awful.

    Almost all his n umbers improved.

    His 369 games were spread out over 6 seasons. How many players can really learn a position by playing 61 games a year? Plus, they played him at 1B for a while.

     

    There is no doubt that LAvarnway did not put up good numbers at all in his callup but I would STILL bet he is the better catcher going forward.

    I agree and hope so, because we will be trading Salty real soon.

    And beyond that Swihart looks to be absolutely a winner in his development both defensively and offensively. A possible all star level catcher for years. They finally drafted an athlete at the catcher position. 

    YES! YES! YES!

    [/QUOTE]


    Also, Salty was one of the best pitch framers in the game. Top 5 I believe, if not top 3. Russell martin was first I think.

    [/QUOTE]

    He also had greatly improved his CERA after 4/25/12 to the point that he was almost even with Shoppach for that time period.

    There are many examples, including VTek, of catchers who did not become strong defensive catchers until ages 29-31.

    The main reason I see trading Salty as the best option is his 1 year of remaining team control and the fact that Ben will not extend him.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    Now that we signed Dempster as a sham of a message to the fans that we will compete in 2013, I'd have just as soon have traded a combination of Ellsbury, Lester, Miller, Aceves, Morales, Breslow and Salty for Myers and maybe another one or two of their top prospects.

     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    Was there a response here that I missed?

     
  18. This post has been removed.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    Invisible ink?

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    :)

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    :)

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    it was probably pike who most likely got banned afterwards Or someome from a banned name in general.. i remember a while back (pre-forum change) if a banned name tried to post it would update the thread to the top of the frontpage but no new post would appear. Not sure if that can still happen now that they re-tooled they forums.

    i still wonder if BC is planning to trade a catcher, i suppose he is waiting until the Naps situation is sorted out then will decide who will go/stay. i still have no clue if its salty/lava who is going to go. I really like salty and think we should stick with him long term. but that is dependant on his 2013 season, if he kicks it up another notch like hes done every year then i would be comfortable making him our catcher of the future. He is handling the staff well and like you said moon, V-tek took awhile to really come into his own. I think it could really pay off in the long run w/ salty IMO.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    His team control runs out after 2013.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Now that we signed Dempster as a sham of a message to the fans that we will compete in 2013, I'd have just as soon have traded a combination of Ellsbury, Lester, Miller, Aceves, Morales, Breslow and Salty for Myers and maybe another one or two of their top prospects.

    [/QUOTE]


    I dont think Dempster will be as bad as some think.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Now that we signed Dempster as a sham of a message to the fans that we will compete in 2013, I'd have just as soon have traded a combination of Ellsbury, Lester, Miller, Aceves, Morales, Breslow and Salty for Myers and maybe another one or two of their top prospects.

    [/QUOTE]


    I dont think Dempster will be as bad as some think.

    [/QUOTE]

    I never said he'd be bad. I know some have.

    I just don't see him helping much in 2014 and 2015, and if you combine the same belief with Victorino, then that's $26M in 2014 and $26M in 2015 taken up by aging mediocrity at a time when every single dollar may be needed to push us to being true and serious WS contenders.

    Sox fans are not as dumb as some may think. If they saw a bright light ahead, they could overlook a slightly worse 2013 team to get there.

     

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