Time to Bench Salty

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

    In response to miscricket's comment:

     

    Time to bench Salty..??? Yikes! I don't think so. I know that numbers don't tell the whole story..but I am a numbers person when it comes to baseball and his numbers don't warrant benching..not by a long shot.

     




    Nobody is suggesting benching him, just questioning whether the guy is a true ML starter, or back up if he repeats another season like the last two.  Tonights another game and there are many left in the season but this will be a discussion all season.

     



    You mean if he places in the middle of the catcher field in OPS and continues to improve his defense?

    While I agree that SLG% is too much a part of OPS and OBP is more important, consider this:

    Salty's .289 Red Sox OBP is better than the other catcher's combined in that time period and better than 6 other MLB team catcher OBP from 2010 to 2013. Maybe this is totally unacceptable to some, but certainly his .453 Slg% makes up for much of his OBP shortcomings. That .453 Slg% is better than 29 team catcher Slg% since 2011. (StL has a team Slg% of .455 since 2011.)

    Since Salty should only start vs RHPs, those numbers should be considered seperately.

    Salty's Sox line vs RHPs: .301/.486/.787

    19th in OBP

    11th in OPS

    2nd in Slg% (to Napoli who no longer catches)

    When comparing to team numbers, Salty places here:

    21st in OBP

    5th in OPS

    1st in Slg%

     

    I just don't see how his offense looks like back-up numbers when compared to the rest of MLB catchers.

    MLB catcher numbers vs RHPs only:

    2011: .323/.440/.763

    2012: .320/.396/.715

    2013: .308/.384/.692

    3 yr Est: .320/.415/.745

     

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

     

    In response to miscricket's comment:

     

    Time to bench Salty..??? Yikes! I don't think so. I know that numbers don't tell the whole story..but I am a numbers person when it comes to baseball and his numbers don't warrant benching..not by a long shot.

     




    Nobody is suggesting benching him, just questioning whether the guy is a true ML starter, or back up if he repeats another season like the last two.  Tonights another game and there are many left in the season but this will be a discussion all season.

     

     



    You mean if he places in the middle of the catcher field in OPS and continues to improve his defense?

     

    While I agree that SLG% is too much a part of OPS and OBP is more important, consider this:

    Salty's .289 Red Sox OBP is better than the other catcher's combined in that time period and better than 6 other MLB team catcher OBP from 2010 to 2013. Maybe this is totally unacceptable to some, but certainly his .453 Slg% makes up for much of his OBP shortcomings. That .453 Slg% is better than 29 team catcher Slg% since 2011. (StL has a team Slg% of .455 since 2011.)

    Since Salty should only start vs RHPs, those numbers should be considered seperately.

    Salty's Sox line vs RHPs: .301/.486/.787

    19th in OBP

    11th in OPS

    2nd in Slg% (to Napoli who no longer catches)

    When comparing to team numbers, Salty places here:

    21st in OBP

    5th in OPS

    1st in Slg%

     

    I just don't see how his offense looks like back-up numbers when compared to the rest of MLB catchers.

    MLB catcher numbers vs RHPs only:

    2011: .323/.440/.763

    2012: .320/.396/.715

    2013: .308/.384/.692

    3 yr Est: .320/.415/.745

     

     



    My answer to that is simple, our FO finally came to their senses by realizing good offense and average defense was much better for the team so they finally traded for Victor.  Since that time Theo brought in another "Salty" who he felt was similar to Tek but as of now hasn't come close. 

    As a result we now have even less talent at the position than in the last 20 plus years.  So in reality we finally recognized the flaw, then allowed Theo to make it worse as he did the entire club in recent years.  Your theory is most catchers are average, mine is the fact we have taken yet another step backwards.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

     

    In response to miscricket's comment:

     

    Time to bench Salty..??? Yikes! I don't think so. I know that numbers don't tell the whole story..but I am a numbers person when it comes to baseball and his numbers don't warrant benching..not by a long shot.

     




    Nobody is suggesting benching him, just questioning whether the guy is a true ML starter, or back up if he repeats another season like the last two.  Tonights another game and there are many left in the season but this will be a discussion all season.

     

     



    You mean if he places in the middle of the catcher field in OPS and continues to improve his defense?

     

    While I agree that SLG% is too much a part of OPS and OBP is more important, consider this:

    Salty's .289 Red Sox OBP is better than the other catcher's combined in that time period and better than 6 other MLB team catcher OBP from 2010 to 2013. Maybe this is totally unacceptable to some, but certainly his .453 Slg% makes up for much of his OBP shortcomings. That .453 Slg% is better than 29 team catcher Slg% since 2011. (StL has a team Slg% of .455 since 2011.)

    Since Salty should only start vs RHPs, those numbers should be considered seperately.

    Salty's Sox line vs RHPs: .301/.486/.787

    19th in OBP

    11th in OPS

    2nd in Slg% (to Napoli who no longer catches)

    When comparing to team numbers, Salty places here:

    21st in OBP

    5th in OPS

    1st in Slg%

     

    I just don't see how his offense looks like back-up numbers when compared to the rest of MLB catchers.

    MLB catcher numbers vs RHPs only:

    2011: .323/.440/.763

    2012: .320/.396/.715

    2013: .308/.384/.692

    3 yr Est: .320/.415/.745

     

     



    My answer to that is simple, our FO finally came to their senses by realizing Tek was no longer as valuable to the team as a starter so they finally traded for Victor.  Since that time Theo brought in another "Salty" who he felt would be similar to Teks offensively but has yet to prove it. 

    As a result we now have even less talent at the position than in the last 20 plus years.  So in reality we finally recognized the flaw, then allowed Theo to make it worse as he did the entire club in recent years.  Your theory is most catchers are average, mine is the fact we have taken yet another step backwards and settled for it. 

     




     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    My answer to that is simple, our FO finally came to their senses by realizing good offense and average defense was much better for the team so they finally traded for Victor.  Since that time Theo brought in another "Salty" who he felt was similar to Tek but as of now hasn't come close. 

    As a result we now have even less talent at the position than in the last 20 plus years.  So in reality we finally recognized the flaw, then allowed Theo to make it worse as he did the entire club in recent years.  Your theory is most catchers are average, mine is the fact we have taken another step backwards.

    No, my point is that teh catching position is not loaded with great offensive players, and to think Salty is a weakness for his offense is not considering the context of the position.

    Salty has improved on offense since becomming a FT catcher with Boston. His entire defense, except for CS rate has improved. Ross is a fine compliment for Salty, and our catching prospects are better looking than I can remember. VMart was a bridge catcher who was never meant to be a long term catching solution to begin with. 

    I'll take our entire catching crew over most team's right now. That brings me to my main point: catching is not a weakness of this team both now and into the future. And, if you do consider it a negative, we certainly have bigger weaknesses... like at SS and SP'ing beyond our top 2 starters.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    My answer to that is simple, our FO finally came to their senses by realizing good offense and average defense was much better for the team so they finally traded for Victor.  Since that time Theo brought in another "Salty" who he felt was similar to Tek but as of now hasn't come close. 

    As a result we now have even less talent at the position than in the last 20 plus years.  So in reality we finally recognized the flaw, then allowed Theo to make it worse as he did the entire club in recent years.  Your theory is most catchers are average, mine is the fact we have taken another step backwards.

    No, my point is that teh catching position is not loaded with great offensive players, and to think Salty is a weakness for his offense is not considering the context of the position.

    Salty has improved on offense since becomming a FT catcher with Boston. His entire defense, except for CS rate has improved. Ross is a fine compliment for Salty, and our catching prospects are better looking than I can remember. VMart was a bridge catcher who was never meant to be a long term catching solution to begin with. 

    I'll take our entire catching crew over most team's right now. That brings me to my main point: catching is not a weakness of this team both now and into the future. And, if you do consider it a negative, we certainly have bigger weaknesses... like at SS and SP'ing beyond our top 2 starters.

     



    Catching has been a weakness since 07 when Tek began to decline offensively, even then and until the day he retired his value was much greater than Salty's is today.  Yes, we brought in Victor short term because Theo believed Salty could eventually put numbers similar to Tek.  It hasn't come close to happening, Salty is our weakest offensive starting catcher in the past 20 years.

     

    This is what confuses me, you don't consider catching a weakness even though Ross has also struggled offensively?   Yet you consider SS and other positions a weakness?  Makes absolutely no sense moon.  How do you see two average players at C being any different than our current SS position?  A 220 hitter is a 220 hitter until proven otherwise.  Judge Salty on career numbers, not just OPS, or the WIDELY cricized CERA.  You also can't compare what Salty is doing so far to players who have put up decent numbers but are presently struggling.

    Our staff has turned things around since bringing in Farrell and Nieves so to give Salty much credit here also makes little sense.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    Salty is basically a mistake hitter with power. The strikeouts are rally killers. He has improved in his handling of pitchers , but his throwing is terrible. You almost hope he just lets the runner steal, rather than throw the ball away. All in all , he is a good teammate , but not a winning player. Not much we can do about it now because Ross is nothing much. Unless Lavarnway shows improvement ,we are stuck with the Salty / Ross combination. Not a winning combination. 

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    Catching has been a weakness since 07 when Tek began to decline offensively, even then and until the day he retired his value was much greater than Salty's is today.  Yes, we brought in Victor short term because Theo believed Salty could eventually put numbers similar to Tek.  It hasn't come close to happening, Salty is our weakest offensive starting catcher in the past 20 years.

    VMart was here before Salty, so your timeline is incorrect.

    Yes, we have had poor catching since 2007. VMart brought offense, but horrible staff handling. VTek continued great staff handling, but his offense declined rapidly, except when in the limited back-up role. 

    While Salty's offense has not been as good as VTek or many prior Sox catchers, it has not been a weakness when compared to the league average catcher.

    You should also reconsider the 20 year comment:

    1993: Pena  .181/.246/.257/.502 and B Melvin .222/.251/.291/.582

     Team: last in catching BA, OBP and SLG (worse than now)

    1994: Berryhill/Rowland/Valle only 5 teams with a worse catcher OBP .297  (worse than now)

    1995: Macfarlane/Haselman (9th worst catcher OBP .314 and 11th worst OPS .705) Worse O

    1996: Stanley/Haselman  Better than this year (.834 OPS)- Better

    1997: Hatteberg/Haselman / Team .330 OBP/.417 SLG- Even?

    1998: .341/.428/.769  Better?

    1999: .338/.452/.790 Better

    2000: .350/.396/.754 Better

    2001: .349/.425/.774 Better

    2002: .327/.396/.722 Even?

    2003-2005: Better

    2006: .297/.365/.663 Worse

    2007: .344/.396/.740 Better

     

    2013:   .286/.474/.759

    11-13: .285/.427/.712

    Salty 11-13: .289/.456/.745

     

    I see several worse catcher offense seasons in the last 20 years than now or during the Salty as starter era.

     

    This is what confuses me, you don't consider catching a weakness even though Ross has also struggled offensively?  

    No, I do not consider a tiny Ross sample size as defining our catcher position as a weakness. 

    Before today's game, in a pretty small sample size, here's how our catchers have done compared to the rest of MLB:

    21st OBP .286

    10th Slg% .474

    15th OPS .759 (Right in the middle of MLB) 14 better/15 worse

    15th wRC+

    16th Batting factor in WAR calculation

    I see the current Sox catching tandem as producing near league average, but by the end of the year will be in the top half in nearly every offensive catcher category except BA and OBP.

     

    Yet you consider SS and other positions a weakness? 

    With Drew as our FT SS, yes. By far a weaker position than C, going by the tiny sample size you are using for Ross and Salty, and Drew's defensive issues.

     

    Makes absolutely no sense moon.  How do you see two average players at C being any different than our current SS position?  

    1) I think our cathcers are better than average, and our future catchers look very promising.

    2) Our SS position has been in shambles for longer than our catching position.

     

    A 220 hitter is a 220 hitter until proven otherwise.  Judge Salty on career numbers, not just OPS, or the WIDELY cricized CERA.  You also can't compare what Salty is doing so far to players who have put up decent numbers but are presently struggling.

    I am not cherry-picking stats to make my point. I value OPS much more than BA and more than OBP alone. Slugging is very important- not as much as OBP- but important none the less. Plus, he has been improving.

     

    Our staff has turned things around since bringing in Farrell and Nieves so to give Salty much credit here also makes little sense.

    You see what you want to see. I have documented a vast improvement in Salty's CERA after 4/25/12. That was under Valantine not Farrell and Nieves.  I'm not saying the two coaches haven't made a big impact, but you are totally discounting any Salty influence, which in my opinion is plain wrong. It is clearly noticable by observation and data.

    Look, I'm not saying we can't do better at the catching position, but Ross has a very good history on defense and offense, when compared to the league average starting catcher, yet he is our back-up. Salty has been aboiut in the middle of the pack on offense since 2011. I don't consider being average as a "weakness", nor do I consider our catching position as our number one weakness. Right now, I'd rank our weakest links as such (as compared to these positions on other teams):

    1) SS as long as Drew is there.

    2) SP #5

    3) SP #4

    4) SP #3

    5) C and 1B tie (Napoli is too fragile, up and down, and our 1B depth is scary.)

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    Salty is basically a mistake hitter with power. The strikeouts are rally killers. He has improved in his handling of pitchers , but his throwing is terrible. You almost hope he just lets the runner steal, rather than throw the ball away. All in all , he is a good teammate , but not a winning player. Not much we can do about it now because Ross is nothing much. Unless Lavarnway shows improvement ,we are stuck with the Salty / Ross combination. Not a winning combination. 



    If Salty is the "rally killer", then what are these guys called?

    2012 Late & Close OPS numbers by Sox players with 50+ PAs:

    1) Pedey  .786

    2) C Ross .768

    3) Salty   .725

    4) AGon   .702

    5) Papi    .682

    6) Aviles .604

    7) Ellsbury .544

    8) Nava     .479

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to NerdatMIT's comment:

    Why were both you and Softlaw missing today? Was it another coincidence?



    I was here almost all day long. Too bad we can't say the same about you.

     
  11. This post has been removed.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    Salty is a butcher behind the plate, so he'll need to have a high OPS for a full season. And, no, not compared to other catchers who are decent fielders who con't hurl the ball into CF. 



    Your focus on only CS% as the guage of a good fielding and defensive catcher is shockinglky naive.

    Salty's 2012 CS rate amounted to about 10-15 more SBs than the average MLB catcher. How many runs did that amount to? How many games did we lose as a result of those few runs?

    How many runs are saved by limiting PBs and WPs? Calling a good game? Framing pitches? 

    You have no clue, clown.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Catching has been a weakness since 07 when Tek began to decline offensively, even then and until the day he retired his value was much greater than Salty's is today.  Yes, we brought in Victor short term because Theo believed Salty could eventually put numbers similar to Tek.  It hasn't come close to happening, Salty is our weakest offensive starting catcher in the past 20 years.

    VMart was here before Salty, so your timeline is incorrect.

    Yes, we have had poor catching since 2007. VMart brought offense, but horrible staff handling. VTek continued great staff handling, but his offense declined rapidly, except when in the limited back-up role. 

    While Salty's offense has not been as good as VTek or many prior Sox catchers, it has not been a weakness when compared to the league average catcher.

    You should also reconsider the 20 year comment:

    1993: Pena  .181/.246/.257/.502 and B Melvin .222/.251/.291/.582

     Team: last in catching BA, OBP and SLG (worse than now)

    1994: Berryhill/Rowland/Valle only 5 teams with a worse catcher OBP .297  (worse than now)

    1995: Macfarlane/Haselman (9th worst catcher OBP .314 and 11th worst OPS .705) Worse O

    1996: Stanley/Haselman  Better than this year (.834 OPS)- Better

    1997: Hatteberg/Haselman / Team .330 OBP/.417 SLG- Even?

    1998: .341/.428/.769  Better?

    1999: .338/.452/.790 Better

    2000: .350/.396/.754 Better

    2001: .349/.425/.774 Better

    2002: .327/.396/.722 Even?

    2003-2005: Better

    2006: .297/.365/.663 Worse

    2007: .344/.396/.740 Better

     

    2013:   .286/.474/.759

    11-13: .285/.427/.712

    Salty 11-13: .289/.456/.745

     

    I see several worse catcher offense seasons in the last 20 years than now or during the Salty as starter era.

     

    This is what confuses me, you don't consider catching a weakness even though Ross has also struggled offensively?  

    No, I do not consider a tiny Ross sample size as defining our catcher position as a weakness. 

    Before today's game, in a pretty small sample size, here's how our catchers have done compared to the rest of MLB:

    21st OBP .286

    10th Slg% .474

    15th OPS .759 (Right in the middle of MLB) 14 better/15 worse

    15th wRC+

    16th Batting factor in WAR calculation

    I see the current Sox catching tandem as producing near league average, but by the end of the year will be in the top half in nearly every offensive catcher category except BA and OBP.

     

    Yet you consider SS and other positions a weakness? 

    With Drew as our FT SS, yes. By far a weaker position than C, going by the tiny sample size you are using for Ross and Salty, and Drew's defensive issues.

     

    Makes absolutely no sense moon.  How do you see two average players at C being any different than our current SS position?  

    1) I think our cathcers are better than average, and our future catchers look very promising.

    2) Our SS position has been in shambles for longer than our catching position.

     

    A 220 hitter is a 220 hitter until proven otherwise.  Judge Salty on career numbers, not just OPS, or the WIDELY cricized CERA.  You also can't compare what Salty is doing so far to players who have put up decent numbers but are presently struggling.

    I am not cherry-picking stats to make my point. I value OPS much more than BA and more than OBP alone. Slugging is very important- not as much as OBP- but important none the less. Plus, he has been improving.

     

    Our staff has turned things around since bringing in Farrell and Nieves so to give Salty much credit here also makes little sense.

    You see what you want to see. I have documented a vast improvement in Salty's CERA after 4/25/12. That was under Valantine not Farrell and Nieves.  I'm not saying the two coaches haven't made a big impact, but you are totally discounting any Salty influence, which in my opinion is plain wrong. It is clearly noticable by observation and data.

    Look, I'm not saying we can't do better at the catching position, but Ross has a very good history on defense and offense, when compared to the league average starting catcher, yet he is our back-up. Salty has been aboiut in the middle of the pack on offense since 2011. I don't consider being average as a "weakness", nor do I consider our catching position as our number one weakness. Right now, I'd rank our weakest links as such (as compared to these positions on other teams):

    1) SS as long as Drew is there.

    2) SP #5

    3) SP #4

    4) SP #3

    5) C and 1B tie (Napoli is too fragile, up and down, and our 1B depth is scary.)

     



    moon,

     

    I never said Salty or catching was our weakest position but have been saying its one of them for two plus years.  Although I do feel Ross is a very capable back up and liked the move the fact is, has to be looked at as a weakness offensively so far.  Napoli has really come on and he has decent back up.  

    I'm not a big CERA fan based the widely spread criticism from experts that can be easily looked up for anyone that has the time.  Finally and respectively, I don't dislike Salty and respect the research and knowledge you bring to the board.

    I just don't place Salty's defensive/game calling improvement in a category with the more traditional Boston catchers like Pudge and Tek who gave us much more.  Salty is putting up numbers like these guys did long after they were effective starters.  Salty just got his first hit tonight and I hope it continues but still feel its one of our weaknesses and has been for years.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Catching has been a weakness since 07 when Tek began to decline offensively, even then and until the day he retired his value was much greater than Salty's is today.  Yes, we brought in Victor short term because Theo believed Salty could eventually put numbers similar to Tek.  It hasn't come close to happening, Salty is our weakest offensive starting catcher in the past 20 years.

    VMart was here before Salty, so your timeline is incorrect.

    Yes, we have had poor catching since 2007. VMart brought offense, but horrible staff handling. VTek continued great staff handling, but his offense declined rapidly, except when in the limited back-up role. 

    While Salty's offense has not been as good as VTek or many prior Sox catchers, it has not been a weakness when compared to the league average catcher.

    You should also reconsider the 20 year comment:

    1993: Pena  .181/.246/.257/.502 and B Melvin .222/.251/.291/.582

     Team: last in catching BA, OBP and SLG (worse than now)

    1994: Berryhill/Rowland/Valle only 5 teams with a worse catcher OBP .297  (worse than now)

    1995: Macfarlane/Haselman (9th worst catcher OBP .314 and 11th worst OPS .705) Worse O

    1996: Stanley/Haselman  Better than this year (.834 OPS)- Better

    1997: Hatteberg/Haselman / Team .330 OBP/.417 SLG- Even?

    1998: .341/.428/.769  Better?

    1999: .338/.452/.790 Better

    2000: .350/.396/.754 Better

    2001: .349/.425/.774 Better

    2002: .327/.396/.722 Even?

    2003-2005: Better

    2006: .297/.365/.663 Worse

    2007: .344/.396/.740 Better

     

    2013:   .286/.474/.759

    11-13: .285/.427/.712

    Salty 11-13: .289/.456/.745

     

    I see several worse catcher offense seasons in the last 20 years than now or during the Salty as starter era.

     

    This is what confuses me, you don't consider catching a weakness even though Ross has also struggled offensively?  

    No, I do not consider a tiny Ross sample size as defining our catcher position as a weakness. 

    Before today's game, in a pretty small sample size, here's how our catchers have done compared to the rest of MLB:

    21st OBP .286

    10th Slg% .474

    15th OPS .759 (Right in the middle of MLB) 14 better/15 worse

    15th wRC+

    16th Batting factor in WAR calculation

    I see the current Sox catching tandem as producing near league average, but by the end of the year will be in the top half in nearly every offensive catcher category except BA and OBP.

     

    Yet you consider SS and other positions a weakness? 

    With Drew as our FT SS, yes. By far a weaker position than C, going by the tiny sample size you are using for Ross and Salty, and Drew's defensive issues.

     

    Makes absolutely no sense moon.  How do you see two average players at C being any different than our current SS position?  

    1) I think our cathcers are better than average, and our future catchers look very promising.

    2) Our SS position has been in shambles for longer than our catching position.

     

    A 220 hitter is a 220 hitter until proven otherwise.  Judge Salty on career numbers, not just OPS, or the WIDELY cricized CERA.  You also can't compare what Salty is doing so far to players who have put up decent numbers but are presently struggling.

    I am not cherry-picking stats to make my point. I value OPS much more than BA and more than OBP alone. Slugging is very important- not as much as OBP- but important none the less. Plus, he has been improving.

     

    Our staff has turned things around since bringing in Farrell and Nieves so to give Salty much credit here also makes little sense.

    You see what you want to see. I have documented a vast improvement in Salty's CERA after 4/25/12. That was under Valantine not Farrell and Nieves.  I'm not saying the two coaches haven't made a big impact, but you are totally discounting any Salty influence, which in my opinion is plain wrong. It is clearly noticable by observation and data.

    Look, I'm not saying we can't do better at the catching position, but Ross has a very good history on defense and offense, when compared to the league average starting catcher, yet he is our back-up. Salty has been aboiut in the middle of the pack on offense since 2011. I don't consider being average as a "weakness", nor do I consider our catching position as our number one weakness. Right now, I'd rank our weakest links as such (as compared to these positions on other teams):

    1) SS as long as Drew is there.

    2) SP #5

    3) SP #4

    4) SP #3

    5) C and 1B tie (Napoli is too fragile, up and down, and our 1B depth is scary.)

     



    moon,

     

    I never said Salty or catching was our weakest position but have been saying its one of them for two plus years.  Although I do feel Ross is a very capable back up and liked the move the fact is, has to be looked at as a weakness offensively so far.  Napoli has really come on and he has decent back up.  

    I'm not a big CERA fan based the widely spread criticism from experts that can be easily looked up for anyone that has the time.  Finally and respectively, I don't dislike Salty and respect the research and knowledge you bring to the board.

    I just don't place Salty's defensive/game calling improvement in a category with the more traditional Boston catchers like Pudge and Tek who gave us much more.  Salty is putting up numbers like these guys did long after they were effective starters.  Salty just got his first hit tonight and I hope it continues but still feel its one of our weaknesses and has been for years.



    VTek led the league in PBs fzor 2 straight seasons at the age Salty is now. He improved greatly after that. I'm not saying Salty will ever be as good as VTek defensively, but the fact that he has improved greatly since becomming a FT catcher makes me view the catcher position as "on the rise" or at least possibly so, and at least worthy of a longer look.

    Ross has not had enough PAs to make any definitive judgement on his offense. He's put up recent offensive numbers that rival half the MLB FT catcher numbers. With Lava, Vazquez, and Swihart in the wings, I just don't view our catcher position as an area in need of urgent attention. Salty needs more time to show if his improvement has leveled out or is continuing. If it has become level, then I can see the point being made that we should try to do better than "average" if we want to have a better chance at a ring.

    I have read somewhere that Salty is a plus catcher on pitch framing. Even if you take away the Wake PBs from 2011, Salty still cut his PBs in half from 2011 to 2012. The pitching staff did much better with Salty after 4/25/12 than before. CERA or not, he is doing better with our staff than before. The only defensive area he has not improved on, and has actually got worse is the CS%, but as I have pointed out, the differential between Salty's number and the league average amounts to about 12-15 SBs a season.

    On offense, his OPS+ has gone up:

    2011: 95

    2012: 96

    2013: 102 (small sample and before tonight's game)

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    Finally. Age.

    He turns 28 in May.

    Who could we even cherry pcik from the whole league? Posey, obviously. McCann...who started the year on the DL, and is still there. I'd still want him. Carlos Santana seems like a rising star. Weiters or Montero? Hitting a combined .220?

    My point is, and continues to be...there are really only 8-10 catchers, league-wide who you'd want over Saltalamacchia. I challenge anyone to provide a list longer than that.

    That being said...if he's in the top half of the league in C OVERALL...then what's to complain about?

    I'd give him until he was 29 without feeling bad about it in the least....that'd be through next season. I feel, he has gotten better, fairly continuously, since coming to Boston.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:

    Finally. Age.

    He turns 28 in May.

    Who could we even cherry pcik from the whole league? Posey, obviously. McCann...who started the year on the DL, and is still there. I'd still want him. Carlos Santana seems like a rising star. Weiters or Montero? Hitting a combined .220?

    My point is, and continues to be...there are really only 8-10 catchers, league-wide who you'd want over Saltalamacchia. I challenge anyone to provide a list longer than that.

    That being said...if he's in the top half of the league in C OVERALL...then what's to complain about?

    I'd give him until he was 29 without feeling bad about it in the least....that'd be through next season. I feel, he has gotten better, fairly continuously, since coming to Boston.


    Jarrod Saltalamacchia is tied for ninth in the American League in WAR among catchers this year and since the start of the 2012 season.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=c&stats=bat&lg=al&qual=40&type=8&season=2013&month=0&season1=2013&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

    Saltalamacchia is tied for 19th and 20th among all MLB catchers in WAR this year and since the start of the 2012 season.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=c&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=40&type=8&season=2013&month=0&season1=2013&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

    * Wins Above Replacement as reported at FanGraphs

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to NerdatMIT's comment:

     

    Why were both you and Softlaw missing today? Was it another coincidence?

     



    I was here almost all day long. Too bad we can't say the same about you.

     



    Even when Pike is here, he is not here. Not completely.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:

    Finally. Age.

    He turns 28 in May.

    Who could we even cherry pcik from the whole league? Posey, obviously. McCann...who started the year on the DL, and is still there. I'd still want him. Carlos Santana seems like a rising star. Weiters or Montero? Hitting a combined .220?

    My point is, and continues to be...there are really only 8-10 catchers, league-wide who you'd want over Saltalamacchia. I challenge anyone to provide a list longer than that.

    That being said...if he's in the top half of the league in C OVERALL...then what's to complain about?

    I'd give him until he was 29 without feeling bad about it in the least....that'd be through next season. I feel, he has gotten better, fairly continuously, since coming to Boston.



    Some catchers blossum later than others. There's still room for Salty to improve greatly, but of course we could also see regression.

    Here's a list of the top catchers by WAR from 2011-2013 (600+ PAs):

    1) 11.3 Y Molina  

    2) 9.6 Posey

    3) 9.2 Wieters

    4) 8.6 Montero

    5) 8.2 C Ruiz

    *** 6) 7.7 Napoli (Not a catcher anymore)***

    6) 7.6 C Santana

    7) 7.2 J Mauer

    8) 6.7 A Avila

    9) 5.5 McCann

    10) 5.4 Lucroy

    11) 5.2 Martin

    12) 5.1 AJ Ellis

    13) 4.6 AJ Pierz.

    14) 4.1 Iannetta

    15) 4.0 Hanigan

    16) 3.5 Salty

    17) 3.5 Buck

    18) 3.0 Suzuki

    19) 2.9 Doumit

    20) 2.8 J Jaso

    G Soto, Arencibia, Barajas, Torrealba, Thole, Olivo, J Montero

     

    If you go more recent (2012-2013) this is the WAR order:

    Posey, Y Molina, Mauer, Ruiz, Montero. Wieters, Ellis, Santana, Lucroy, AJ Pierz, J Jaso, Salvador Perez, Martin, Hanigan, Avila, Wilin Rosario, #18 Salty, Buck , McCann...

     

    I'm not an expert on the skillsets of all these guys, but I think one could argue there are 10-15 better than Salty, but some are old and/or much more costly.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to NerdatMIT's comment:

     

    Why were both you and Softlaw missing today? Was it another coincidence?

     



    I was here almost all day long. Too bad we can't say the same about you.

     

     



    Even when Pike is here, he is not here. Not completely.

     



    He's aiming to be the second person to ever be put on ignore by myself.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:

     

    Finally. Age.

    He turns 28 in May.

    Who could we even cherry pcik from the whole league? Posey, obviously. McCann...who started the year on the DL, and is still there. I'd still want him. Carlos Santana seems like a rising star. Weiters or Montero? Hitting a combined .220?

    My point is, and continues to be...there are really only 8-10 catchers, league-wide who you'd want over Saltalamacchia. I challenge anyone to provide a list longer than that.

    That being said...if he's in the top half of the league in C OVERALL...then what's to complain about?

    I'd give him until he was 29 without feeling bad about it in the least....that'd be through next season. I feel, he has gotten better, fairly continuously, since coming to Boston.

     



    Some catchers blossum later than others. There's still room for Salty to improve greatly, but of course we could also see regression.

     

    Here's a list of the top catchers by WAR from 2011-2013 (600+ PAs):

    1) 11.3 Y Molina  

    2) 9.6 Posey

    3) 9.2 Wieters

    4) 8.6 Montero

    5) 8.2 C Ruiz

    *** 6) 7.7 Napoli (Not a catcher anymore)***

    6) 7.6 C Santana

    7) 7.2 J Mauer

    8) 6.7 A Avila

    9) 5.5 McCann

    10) 5.4 Lucroy

    11) 5.2 Martin

    12) 5.1 AJ Ellis

    13) 4.6 AJ Pierz.

    14) 4.1 Iannetta

    15) 4.0 Hanigan

    16) 3.5 Salty

    17) 3.5 Buck

    18) 3.0 Suzuki

    19) 2.9 Doumit

    20) 2.8 J Jaso

    G Soto, Arencibia, Barajas, Torrealba, Thole, Olivo, J Montero

     

    If you go more recent (2012-2013) this is the WAR order:

    Posey, Y Molina, Mauer, Ruiz, Montero. Wieters, Ellis, Santana, Lucroy, AJ Pierz, J Jaso, Salvador Perez, Martin, Hanigan, Avila, Wilin Rosario, #18 Salty, Buck , McCann...

     

    I'm not an expert on the skillsets of all these guys, but I think one could argue there are 10-15 better than Salty, but some are old and/or much more costly.

     



    moon,

     

    I look at our weaker positions at this point by this priority ....

    #1 3B, Middy has very little plate discipline and still needs improvement defensively.  Youk should have been signed over allowing the Yankees to grab him.  As a result we have little back up for Middy or IB as you mentioned.

    #2/3, SS & C is a tie, At SS Drew and Ciriaco are off to a horrible starts offensively but our defense is as good or better than our catching.  Drew has shown he can handle the position quite well.  With C, Salty and Ross are also good defensively outside of Salty's CS but offensively at this point neither have been very good.  Both positions have back up but our best hope still lies with youngsters in the minors.

    #4 1B, Napoli has played very good defense and is turning into a beast offensively.  We also have guys like Carp, Papi and even a guy like "Brandon Snyder" who has impressed me so far outside of a few errors at AAA who could fill in temporarily and probably hold their own.

    #5 SP, This was number 1 or 2 on my list going into the season but with Morales coming back, Doubront, Webster and Lackey we may surprise people, especially if Lester, Clay and Dempster continue to pitch well and stay off the DL

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:

     

    Finally. Age.

    He turns 28 in May.

    Who could we even cherry pcik from the whole league? Posey, obviously. McCann...who started the year on the DL, and is still there. I'd still want him. Carlos Santana seems like a rising star. Weiters or Montero? Hitting a combined .220?

    My point is, and continues to be...there are really only 8-10 catchers, league-wide who you'd want over Saltalamacchia. I challenge anyone to provide a list longer than that.

    That being said...if he's in the top half of the league in C OVERALL...then what's to complain about?

    I'd give him until he was 29 without feeling bad about it in the least....that'd be through next season. I feel, he has gotten better, fairly continuously, since coming to Boston.

     



    Some catchers blossum later than others. There's still room for Salty to improve greatly, but of course we could also see regression.

     

    Here's a list of the top catchers by WAR from 2011-2013 (600+ PAs):

    1) 11.3 Y Molina  

    2) 9.6 Posey

    3) 9.2 Wieters

    4) 8.6 Montero

    5) 8.2 C Ruiz

    *** 6) 7.7 Napoli (Not a catcher anymore)***

    6) 7.6 C Santana

    7) 7.2 J Mauer

    8) 6.7 A Avila

    9) 5.5 McCann

    10) 5.4 Lucroy

    11) 5.2 Martin

    12) 5.1 AJ Ellis

    13) 4.6 AJ Pierz.

    14) 4.1 Iannetta

    15) 4.0 Hanigan

    16) 3.5 Salty

    17) 3.5 Buck

    18) 3.0 Suzuki

    19) 2.9 Doumit

    20) 2.8 J Jaso

    G Soto, Arencibia, Barajas, Torrealba, Thole, Olivo, J Montero

     

    If you go more recent (2012-2013) this is the WAR order:

    Posey, Y Molina, Mauer, Ruiz, Montero. Wieters, Ellis, Santana, Lucroy, AJ Pierz, J Jaso, Salvador Perez, Martin, Hanigan, Avila, Wilin Rosario, #18 Salty, Buck , McCann...

     

    I'm not an expert on the skillsets of all these guys, but I think one could argue there are 10-15 better than Salty, but some are old and/or much more costly.

     



    moon,

     

    I look at our weaker positions at this point by this priority ....

    #1 3B, Middy has very little plate discipline and still needs improvement defensively.  Youk should have been signed over allowing the Yankees to grab him.  As a result we have little back up for Middy or IB as you mentioned.

    #2/3, SS & C is a tie, At SS Drew and Ciriaco are off to a horrible starts offensively but our defense is as good or better than our catching.  Drew has shown he can handle the position quite well.  With C, Salty and Ross are also good defensively outside of Salty's CS but offensively at this point neither have been very good.  Both positions have back up but our best hope still lies with youngsters in the minors.

    #4 1B, Napoli has played very good defense and is turning into a beast offensively.  We also have guys like Carp, Papi and even a guy like "Brandon Snyder" who has impressed me so far outside of a few errors at AAA who could fill in temporarily and probably hold their own.

    #5 SP, This was number 1 or 2 on my list going into the season but with Morales coming back, Doubront, Webster and Lackey we may surprise people, especially if Lester, Clay and Dempster continue to pitch well and stay off the DL

     



    I can see your point about 3B, but I was not basing my list on the tiny 2013 sampel size.

    Yes, we currently have the 21st best catcher OPS in MLB, but I expect that to change to the plus side of 15 by year's end.

    I'd say #3 starter not #5, since Dempster and Lackey are not top quality #3 starters, but maybe decent 4/5s.

    With Drew as our SS and Iggy on the farm, SS remains our #1 issue on the 25 man roster.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    When Varitek couldn't hit his own weight, and could barely get the ball to second base, everybody still wanted him in the game because of how he handled the staff.  Now we have a catcher who strikes out a lot but led the team in HRs last year, and our staff is getting the best results many of us have ever seen, and we're complaining about a low batting average and inaccurate throwing arm.  

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:

     

    Finally. Age.

    He turns 28 in May.

    Who could we even cherry pcik from the whole league? Posey, obviously. McCann...who started the year on the DL, and is still there. I'd still want him. Carlos Santana seems like a rising star. Weiters or Montero? Hitting a combined .220?

    My point is, and continues to be...there are really only 8-10 catchers, league-wide who you'd want over Saltalamacchia. I challenge anyone to provide a list longer than that.

    That being said...if he's in the top half of the league in C OVERALL...then what's to complain about?

    I'd give him until he was 29 without feeling bad about it in the least....that'd be through next season. I feel, he has gotten better, fairly continuously, since coming to Boston.

     



    Some catchers blossum later than others. There's still room for Salty to improve greatly, but of course we could also see regression.

     

    Here's a list of the top catchers by WAR from 2011-2013 (600+ PAs):

    1) 11.3 Y Molina  

    2) 9.6 Posey

    3) 9.2 Wieters

    4) 8.6 Montero

    5) 8.2 C Ruiz

    *** 6) 7.7 Napoli (Not a catcher anymore)***

    6) 7.6 C Santana

    7) 7.2 J Mauer

    8) 6.7 A Avila

    9) 5.5 McCann

    10) 5.4 Lucroy

    11) 5.2 Martin

    12) 5.1 AJ Ellis

    13) 4.6 AJ Pierz.

    14) 4.1 Iannetta

    15) 4.0 Hanigan

    16) 3.5 Salty

    17) 3.5 Buck

    18) 3.0 Suzuki

    19) 2.9 Doumit

    20) 2.8 J Jaso

    G Soto, Arencibia, Barajas, Torrealba, Thole, Olivo, J Montero

     

    If you go more recent (2012-2013) this is the WAR order:

    Posey, Y Molina, Mauer, Ruiz, Montero. Wieters, Ellis, Santana, Lucroy, AJ Pierz, J Jaso, Salvador Perez, Martin, Hanigan, Avila, Wilin Rosario, #18 Salty, Buck , McCann...

     

    I'm not an expert on the skillsets of all these guys, but I think one could argue there are 10-15 better than Salty, but some are old and/or much more costly.

     



    moon,

     

    I look at our weaker positions at this point by this priority ....

    #1 3B, Middy has very little plate discipline and still needs improvement defensively.  Youk should have been signed over allowing the Yankees to grab him.  As a result we have little back up for Middy or IB as you mentioned.

    #2/3, SS & C is a tie, At SS Drew and Ciriaco are off to a horrible starts offensively but our defense is as good or better than our catching.  Drew has shown he can handle the position quite well.  With C, Salty and Ross are also good defensively outside of Salty's CS but offensively at this point neither have been very good.  Both positions have back up but our best hope still lies with youngsters in the minors.

    #4 1B, Napoli has played very good defense and is turning into a beast offensively.  We also have guys like Carp, Papi and even a guy like "Brandon Snyder" who has impressed me so far outside of a few errors at AAA who could fill in temporarily and probably hold their own.

    #5 SP, This was number 1 or 2 on my list going into the season but with Morales coming back, Doubront, Webster and Lackey we may surprise people, especially if Lester, Clay and Dempster continue to pitch well and stay off the DL

     

     



    I can see your point about 3B, but I was not basing my list on the tiny 2013 sampel size.

     

    Yes, we currently have the 21st best catcher OPS in MLB, but I expect that to change to the plus side of 15 by year's end.

    I'd say #3 starter not #5, since Dempster and Lackey are not top quality #3 starters, but maybe decent 4/5s.

    With Drew as our SS and Iggy on the farm, SS remains our #1 issue on the 25 man roster.



    I think at this point the only thing keeping Iggy down is the fact Ciriaco also plays 3B.  Not sure how this plays out but my guess is Iggy's big chance may come next season, hopefully he can continue to hit well at AAA until being brought up again, much like Bradley.

    Also, like you see the catching numbers changing by years end I feel the same about Drew's offense.  I still feel he's better than Iggy offensively and "to his credit" has played great defense so far.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to slomag's comment:

    When Varitek couldn't hit his own weight, and could barely get the ball to second base, everybody still wanted him in the game because of how he handled the staff.  Now we have a catcher who strikes out a lot but led the team in HRs last year, and our staff is getting the best results many of us have ever seen, and we're complaining about a low batting average and inaccurate throwing arm.  




    Not "everybody", but point well taken.

    Also, many are giving all the credit to Farrell and Nieves. I'm not saying they are not a big part of the staff turnaround, but Salty has to get some of the credit. He was certainly blamed enough when things were going badly.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In response to slomag's comment:

     

    When Varitek couldn't hit his own weight, and could barely get the ball to second base, everybody still wanted him in the game because of how he handled the staff.  Now we have a catcher who strikes out a lot but led the team in HRs last year, and our staff is getting the best results many of us have ever seen, and we're complaining about a low batting average and inaccurate throwing arm.  

     




    slomag, think about what you are saying for a second.  The reasons you mentioned above were what put Tek in the back up role, even with the game calling skills 'which take years" to develop because his results were fading.  Salty doesn't do anything as good as Tek at this point except in OPS and CS.  Even in Teks last few years he still put up a high OPS and got on base more than Salty can after three years as starter.

     

    To say Salty's game calling skills have turned our staff around makes little sense.  The issue with guys like "Lester and Clay" was simply health and mechanics, Lackey may also be thrown into that category if he does better this season.  Salty has never had this kind of success with any of them in the past and an average catcher can't impact a staff like this in a few months.  With Dempster?  Salty never even caught the guy until this season and Doub is the same guy we saw last season. 

    Neives, Farrell and good health is what has turned a couple guys around.  Salty's only contribution here is blocking more balls, positioning himself and trying to be more of a leader/support to our staff when they struggle, or in other words a few more trips to the mound.  I was a catcher for many years and can tell exactly what Salty does and can't do well, or how he has improved over the past two seasons.  This is the main reason I critique him so much, not because I dislike him.

     
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