Time to Bench Salty

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    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In Response to Re: Time to Bench Salty:
    [QUOTE]More on Salty's catching experience: I can see how the argument can be made that he has been catching in professional baseball for 10 years (2003-2012), and he should have "gotten it" by now. That position has merit. However, he started at age 18.  He was called up at age 22 and actually played more games at 1B than Catcher that year. Here are the total games Salty has played at catcher over his career- minors and majors:   minors Majors Total 03  36  0   36 04  50  0   50 05  93  0   93 06  81  0   81 07  20 19  39 (35 IB) 08  15 52  67 09  2   82  84 10  61  6   67 11   0  96  96 12   0  76  76+ Never over 96 games as a catcher. 5 of 10 years under 67 games as a catcher.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    No doubt playing time is key for a player in any position to improve their skills.  Salty seems like a great guy and team player so I wish him the best regardless, but do want Lav to have the same opportunity.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In Response to Re: Time to Bench Salty:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Time to Bench Salty : No doubt playing time is key for a player in any position to improve their skills.  Salty seems like a great guy and team player so I wish him the best regardless, but do want Lav to have the same opportunity.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]
    I think we -- or most of us -- wish all Sox players the best. I also think that we all want to see Lavarnway get a good shot. It will be interesting to see how the Sox handle the situation. The team may have ideas that none of us has yet considered. 

     
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    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    There you go with the factual record again. Apparently nothing can be done to break you of that annoying habit. Sigh. I guess we'll just have to tolerate you -- and your tolerance for and patience with ballplayers, especially ones trying to learn the most demanding defensive position in the game, all things considered.

    Now, a look at Lava:
    He played 3 years at Yale. I believe only the last season as a catcher. All in all, he only played 110 games at Yale. I think only 34 as a catcher in 3 years to age 21. He started his pro career at age 21/22 compared to Salty at 18. Salty had about 180 games at catcher from 18-21 in the minors compared to 34 in college by Lava.

    Lava's games as a catcher in the pros:
      min-maj-total
    08  10   0  10
    09  66   0  66
    10  53   0  53
    11  62   2  64
    12  80   2  82

    I find it hard to belive that after 34 college games and 275 games as a pro, he's going to leap frog Salty in handling the pitcher skillset by the time Salty's contract is over here in Boston (after 2013). True, starting him now might hurry it along, but the guy is on the bench now. If we aren't going to play him, he should be in AAA picking up experience.

    Some MLB catchers have become decent pitcher handlers at earlier ages than Salty is now, but it is rare. Maybe Lava is a rare bird-maybe not. Finding out something right now makes some sense, but 7 weeks is not a large enough sample size to evaluate that part of Lava's game. 

    2013 is the  bigger question. Lava continuing his learning curve in the bigs under the Boston spotlight, or Salty playing out his last arb season looking for an extension of a big contract for 204 elsewhere.
     
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    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    The team has a game plan versus each opposing hitter right. Scouts are involved. Catchers and pitchers watch a lot of video along with the coaches. Personally, I really do not think this process is rocket science. Some players are going to catch on quick and others are never going to get it. Most are somewhere in between. I worry about blocking balls in the dirt with Lavarnway more than anything else. The pitcher has to be confident enough to be able to throw such pitches with men on base. They may be hesitant to do that right now especially with Lavarnway. In terms of calling a game, I see no reason to doubt Lavarnway's ability in that area. Why would it take a Yale level brain 3-4 more years to pick that up?

    So far, I have seen maybe 4 AB for Lavarnway all year, and virtually none of his defensive work. I'm too busy. From what little I've seen though he appeared to want to pull the ball too much but again, I have a small data sample. Hopefully he can pull out of the hitting funk before it gets psychological. 
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    Buster Posey's do come along every now and then. I hope Lava is a fast learner. 

    BTW, 2 of my 5 sisters went to Yale, but I'm smarter than them.

    LOL...  Tongue Out
     
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    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In Response to Re: Time to Bench Salty:
    [QUOTE]The team has a game plan versus each opposing hitter right. Scouts are involved. Catchers and pitchers watch a lot of video along with the coaches. Personally, I really do not think this process is rocket science. Some players are going to catch on quick and others are never going to get it. Most are somewhere in between. I worry about blocking balls in the dirt with Lavarnway more than anything else. The pitcher has to be confident enough to be able to throw such pitches with men on base. They may be hesitant to do that right now especially with Lavarnway. In terms of calling a game, I see no reason to doubt Lavarnway's ability in that area. Why would it take a Yale level brain 3-4 more years to pick that up? So far, I have seen maybe 4 AB for Lavarnway all year, and virtually none of his defensive work. I'm too busy. From what little I've seen though he appeared to want to pull the ball too much but again, I have a small data sample. Hopefully he can pull out of the hitting funk before it gets psychological. 
    Posted by RedsoxProspects[/QUOTE]
    The scouting report is the foundation of how a particular pitcher is expected to pitch to a particular batter. But things don't always work out according to plan. Batters make adjustments that catchers should notice and then make their own adjustments. In a given game, the pitcher doesn't have the good breaking that the report says will retire batter B. And on and on. 
    Thus the game of cat and mouse. The catcher initiates the game. 
    Catchers are largely responsible for helping the pitcher maintain focus.
    Catchers try to set a pace and rhythm that will best serve a pitcher in a particular game.
    Some catchers have a better "feel" than others for what the position requires.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    The scouting report is the foundation of how a particular pitcher is expected to pitch to a particular batter. But things don't always work out according to plan. Batters make adjustments that catchers should notice and then make their own adjustments. In a given game, the pitcher doesn't have the good breaking that the report says will retire batter B. And on and on. 
    Thus the game of cat and mouse. The catcher initiates the game. 
    Catchers are largely responsible for helping the pitcher maintain focus.
    Catchers try to set a pace and rhythm that will best serve a pitcher in a particular game.
    Some catchers have a better "feel" than others for what the position requires.

    Exactly, and because this "feel game" can never be quantified with stats or metrics (even CERA with it's many limitations can only partially capture a piece of it) many posters and fans choose to ignore it, minimize its influence in most games, or deny it all together.

    "A pitcher can always shake of the catcher until he gets what he wants to pitch", they say. They assume this means the pitcher always...
    1) Pitches the type of pitch and location where he wanted.
    2) Thought of every pitch he wanted beforehand.
    3) Never is influenced by a catcher to change a pitch type or location.

    This only addresses pitch choice and location. As ex points out, there is much more to it than even that... pace and rythym, comfort level, adjustments, focus maintenance, etc...

    Also, some catchers, such as VTek, were legendary for accumulating and adjusting data on plans of attack on each and every batter in MLB. I know with the advent of advanced technology, many might feel this will become a needless art of the catching position, and future catchers will only need to consult the computer data before each game, but I think the human element of the game can never be captured by numbers.

    We don't know where Lava is in this phase of the game. We won't know for a while. One game, one week, or one month sample sizes are not large enough to know for sure about anything in baseball, let alone an area of baseball so full of intangibles and variables. We barely can come to an agreement on this board that Salty has improved in this area over the past 4 months (4.05 CERA since April 25th). I seriously doubt any consensus will be reached after 7 weeks of watching Lava play sporadically as our catcher, or even if we now begin to play him FT. 

    This is not a knock on Lava. I have great hopes for him as our catcher of the future or, at worst, as a trade chip for a significant starting pitcher. I guess what I am trying to say is that we should be cautiously optimistic, and not neglect to view the complexities of the catching position as a whole. Throwing all our chips in the Lava basket, and totally discounting the fact that we have another young 27 year old catcher with somewhat limited experience behind the plate for someone in professional baseball for almost 10 years, who has improved immensely in a key area of his game (pitcher-handling) could be huge mistake.

    There is a significant possibility we end up trading Salty this winter. There's also a pretty significant possibility that Lava takes a long time to even get to where Salty is today in the areas mentioned above. He may also never amount to the offensive weapon many of us feel he will become in MLB, while Salty may come into his own at then normal age for catchers to do such (ages 28-30) for another team. I can just hear the Ben bashing if that happens. I hope that never happens, but my main point is that it is too early to give up on Salty, but the Lava/Salty clash was bound to happen. Lava appears to be ready for a major league test at the same time Salty is in the middle of his test. One appears to need to give way to the other. It is hard to keep both tests going, especially when and if Papi returns.

    I hope we make the right choice.
     
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    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    I don't mean any disrespect but I really feel we are at the end of the test with Salty. We should know what we have with a guy generally within 2 years. Texas felt that they knew what they had when they traded him for 2 A ball guys. Young MLB level players who have potential to be starters with 4 years of control ( Salty at the time ) are not generally traded for 2 A ball guys. We have now had almost 2 years. We should know what we have by now.

    That doesn't mean that he isn't potentially a 40 HR stud in a year or 2 and we just missed it but the FO probably knows what it has by now.

    We may be wrong on Lava but we don't know yet what we have. This is a near ideal time to find out.   
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    I don't mean any disrespect but I really feel we are at the end of the test with Salty. We should know what we have with a guy generally within 2 years. Texas felt that they knew what they had when they traded him for 2 A ball guys. Young MLB level players who have potential to be starters with 4 years of control ( Salty at the time ) are not generally traded for 2 A ball guys. We have now had almost 2 years. We should know what we have by now.

    We certainly have a better understanding of who Salty is, but the guy just turned 27. He's shown enormous progress in the most important part of a catcher's game- handling the staff while alos improving his OPS from 2011 to 2012. Sorry, but with all due respect, assuming all growth will stop at this point could be premature.

    Again, I will point to the VTek example. Going by your criteria, we should have ended the experiment after 2000 or his injury season of 2001. He had caught about 300 games in the minors, but at much more of a FT catcher rate than Salty did: 89 games in 1995, 108 in1996, and 102 games in 1997. (Salty never caught more than 82 games in the minors.) VTek's pro career started like this:

    First 3 years with Boston, yet some are prepared to give up on Salty before he even reaches 2 years

    Age 26) 1998: 56 games started as a catcher (75 total played in).
    18 PBs
    20 WPs
    Both way over the pace needed to lead the league.
    BA: .253
    OBP: .309
    SLG: .407
    OPS: .716 

    Age 27) 1999:
    25 PBs- led the league
    22 WPs
    5% below the league CS%
    BA: .269
    OBP: .330
    SLG: .482
    OPS: .813


    Age 28) 2000:
    14 PBs- led the league
    16 WPs
    5% below the league CS%
    BA: .248
    OBP: .342
    SLG: .388
    OPS: .730

    Age 29) 2001: Injured for most of the year.
    Age 30) 2002: .724 OPS

    VTek after 2 years (1998-1999)
    14th out of 17 catchers in WAR (over 750 PAs) Salty 12th out of 17 in WAR
    13th out of 17 in OBP: .324    Salty 14/17 in OBP at .285
    9th out of 17 in SLG: .459      Salty 7/17 in SLG at .455
    9th in OPS at .782                  Salty 11/17 in OPS at .740
    791 PAs  .264  27  101             Salty 727  .231  36  103 
    14th out of 17 in FIELDING (Fangraphs) (23 out of 27 at -7.0) Salty 11/17th (15/27)

    VTek after 3 years (25-27)
    1310 PAs  .258  37  156                                   Salty PAs 757 .228  36  105
    18th out of 30 in BA MLB catcher (800+ PAs)  Salty 27/32 at .228
    20th out of 30 in OBP (.331)                            Salty 29th out of 32 in OBP at .287
    14th our of 30 in SLG (.431)                            Salty 7th/32 at .750 
    15th in OPS at .762                                         Salty 20th out of 32 at .736
    27th our of 30 in FIELDING (as measured by Fangraphs Fielding WAR component) -8
    Salty is 15th out of 27 at -4.1 ages 26-27 and 20th out of 32 from ages 25-27.

    I'm glad we didn't give up on VTEK after 2 or 3 years.
    Add this:

    CERA

    1998:
    VTek  4.29
    Hatt   4.10

    1999
    VTek  3.98
    Hatt    3.13

    2000
    VTek  3.96
    Hatt    5.02

    It took Vtek until his 3rd season with the Sox to become the CERA leader on the team. He was 28. The age Salty will be next season.

    Salty has a 4.05 CERA since April 25th.


     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    You should read a book by Keith Woolner called Baseball Prospectus, about the fallacies about CERA. 
    He states " the HYPOTHESIS, most consistent with the avaialable facts appears to be that Catchers do not have a significant effect on a Pitchers performance".

    He's one of many doubters, and anywways, CERA is just one small, very limited and restriced use measurement of just one part of a catcher's skillset behind the plate.

    With this CERA you claim is not giving enough credit to the Pitchers.

    Find where I ever claimed pitchers get no or little credit. I've been begging for us to get an ace for 2+ years.

    The 4, 20 game winners for the Orioles you dont hear about Johnny Oates or Elrod Hendricks, plus Orioles had McNally, Palmer, Dobson, Cuellar, win 20 games different times. Once they also had 3 20 game winners, same Catchers.

    Want me to bring up countless examples where great pitchers did much better with one cathcer over another, of even insisted on their own personal "caddy"?

    Recently the Giants and their staff, Posey is a converted SS, still learning, and that is one of the strongest staffs in baseball. Not because of the Catcher. Because those Pitchers are good.

    Of course, but bringing up posey shows you lack of understanding of how CERA is supposed to be used. It is not a stat to compare posey to other league catcher CERAs. That's ridiculous to even think of doing that. Who catchers catch, where they catch them (pitcher or hitter parks), and who they face more often (weak hitting division vs strong ones) make CERA near useless in team to team comparisons. CERA is best used to compare catchers from the same team ONLY! And even then, comparing just their overall CERAs against each other is highly flawed, since one catcher might catcher the better pitchers on the staff. CERA is a highly limited stat for this reason, and nobody here is using it in the manner you put forth to make any judgements, and if they are, they don't get it.

    CERA should be used to compare catchers from the same team AND only by looking at each pitcher individually one by one to compare how each pitcher does with each catcher. If the sample sizes are small or unequal, this should be a factor in not making definitive judgements on those pitchers. Thats is why the stat, if used correctly, is highly restrictive. Only pitchers with large sample sizes and relatively equal sample sizes between the team's catchers should be considered in comparing two catchers from the same team.

    In this light, CERA is not a valuable tool for judging a catcher in terms of comparing him to the other league catchers.
     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    By the way, using CERA for the O's big starters from 1969-1973:

    Palmer:   1969  70       71       72     73
    Oates        --                       1.78    (2.54 w/ E. Williams)
    Hendicks  2.24  3.02  2.64  3.86   3.07
    Etch          2.50  2.41  2.60   1.83  1.29
    (Note: until 1973, Hendricks & Etchebarren caught Jim about equally, but Hendricks caught more most years.)

    Cuellar:
    Oates                                  4.22  (3.59 w E. Williams)
    Hend       1.84  3.37   3.32  1.97   2.62
    Etch         3.25  3.72  2.54  2.08    2.96
    (Note: until 1973, Hendricks was almost exclusively Cuellar's catcher)

    McNally:
    Oates                                3.91   (2.95 w/ E. Williams)
    Hendr     3.27  2.26  3.31  --        4.11
    Etch        3.30  3.55  2.52  2.20   3.69
    (Note: until 1972, Hendricks caught Dave more than Etch, but then Etch caught more innings starting with 1972 and the 2.52 CERA then in 1973, E. Williams caught more with all 3 of these starters.)
                                    1971     72
    Dobson:
    Oates                       --       2.66
    Hendr                     2.66    1.27
    Etch                        3.39    3.10
    (Note: both catchers caught Pat abour even in '71, but Oates more in '72)

    These are just 4 pitchers from that era. In this time frame, it appears that...

    Palmer did much better with Etchebarren, and Weaver let Etchebarren catch him at a higher percentage of the games than with the other 3 starters listed here.

    Cuellar did much better with Hendricks and was almost his exclusive catcher until 1972 when Oates became the main man then Williams in '73).

    McNally initially did better with hendricks, but when he started doing better with Etchebarren, Weaver matched him more with Etch.

    Dobson did way better with Hendricks, but oates caught him most of 1972.

    From this limited data, one could conclude that Hendricks was the better picther handler, except for Palmer.
     
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    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    Overall moonslav has been pretty credible on CERA.  He sees where it makes sense and where it doesn't necessarily.  Forgetting CERA, it's a fact Shoppach had a better won lost record in games he caught than did Salty.  That and maybe a couple of other things (nailing baserunners, errors, PB's, etc) is why he went to Bobby V and asked for more starts at catcher and then went public when he didn't get them. 

    My problem these days is Salty looks stupid at the plate, and I can't help but think he must be stupid behind it too.  Totally unfair judgment, I admit. 
     
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    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    Overall moonslav has been pretty credible on CERA.  He sees where it makes sense and where it doesn't necessarily.  Forgetting CERA, it's a fact Shoppach had a better won lost record in games he caught than did Salty.  That and maybe a couple of other things (nailing baserunners, errors, PB's, etc) is why he went to Bobby V and asked for more starts at catcher and then went public when he didn't get them.  

    Totally agree, especially on the going public part as maybe one reason he is still not here.

    My problem these days is Salty looks stupid at the plate, and I can't help but think he must be stupid behind it too.  Totally unfair judgment, I admit. 

    It's not as clear cut as stupid vs smart. Smart players aren't always the best hitters either. One can know what he is doing wrong, try to correct it, but still strike out. baseball is a tough game.

    His hitting is torturous to watch right now, I agree.
     
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    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    Intelligence and a record of success in life in general are good indicators of the intangibles needed to succeed in mlb, particularly at the catcher position. I'm not saying that they are more than a 5% factor but they may well be in some instances. Tek might be a good example of a guy who had a decent brain ( Georgia Tech ) who worked very hard and eventually was able to make himself an all star level player.

    And Salty may not have that aspect going for him. Signed out of high school. Married his high school gym teacher who was roughly 10 years older. No indication of being a fast learner. Lot's of indications of him having the physical attributes needed for success. Few indications of him developing as a mature hitter, working the count, selecting good pitchers to hit, developing fundamental hitting mechanics. Few indications of him developing as a solid defender. Reputation for a good work ethic but the results have been mixed. 

    Last I looked Salty had the 11th best OPS on the team, which is his best stat besides HR. I know it sounds like I'm bashing him. I'm just trying to look at him objectively, as I try to do with all Redsox players. i have liked a lot of players and prospects. I thought Iglesias was going to be our top prospect and he was for a month or so but he has dropped since. Every player is evaluated almost on a day to day basis. Objectively. I think Ellsbury is playing way under his potential but I have to admit that the numbers are not there right now, so he drops some in the eval. Ellsbury might be my favorite player but my eval of him changes as the results change. Same thing with Softy. The data sample is significant and the fat lady is probably clearing her throat.
     
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    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In Response to Re: Time to Bench Salty:
    [QUOTE]Intelligence and a record of success in life in general are good indicators of the intangibles needed to succeed in mlb, particularly at the catcher position. I'm not saying that they are more than a 5% factor but they may well be in some instances. Tek might be a good example of a guy who had a decent brain ( Georgia Tech ) who worked very hard and eventually was able to make himself an all star level player. And Salty may not have that aspect going for him. Signed out of high school. Married his high school gym teacher who was roughly 10 years older. No indication of being a fast learner. Lot's of indications of him having the physical attributes needed for success. Few indications of him developing as a mature hitter, working the count, selecting good pitchers to hit, developing fundamental hitting mechanics. Few indications of him developing as a solid defender. Reputation for a good work ethic but the results have been mixed.  Last I looked Salty had the 11th best OPS on the team, which is his best stat besides HR. I know it sounds like I'm bashing him. I'm just trying to look at him objectively, as I try to do with all Redsox players. i have liked a lot of players and prospects. I thought Iglesias was going to be our top prospect and he was for a month or so but he has dropped since. Every player is evaluated almost on a day to day basis. Objectively. I think Ellsbury is playing way under his potential but I have to admit that the numbers are not there right now, so he drops some in the eval. Ellsbury might be my favorite player but my eval of him changes as the results change. Same thing with Softy. The data sample is significant and the fat lady is probably clearing her throat.
    Posted by RedsoxProspects[/QUOTE]
    Salty appears to have been more "successful" than Tek at marriage. Maybe Tek should have chosen an older woman the first time. 

     
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    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    I hasten to add that, of course, I know nothing about the marriages of these players. And I assume that Salty is still married to the older woman. My point was that a man, a very young one, marrying a woman ten years his senior is in itself indicative of nothing about him. 
     
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    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In Response to Re: Time to Bench Salty:
    [QUOTE]You should read a book by Keith Woolner called Baseball Prospectus, about the fallacies about CERA. He states " the HYPOTHESIS, most consistent with the avaialable facts appears to be that Catchers do not have a significant effect on a Pitchers performance". With this CERA you claim is not giving enough credit to the Pitchers. The 4, 20 game winners for the Orioles you dont hear about Johnny Oates or Elrod Hendricks, plus Orioles had McNally, Palmer, Dobson, Cuellar, win 20 games different times. Once they also had 3 20 game winners, same Catchers. Recently the Giants and their staff, Posey is a converted SS, still learning, and that is one of the strongest staffs in baseball. Not because of the Catcher. Because those Pitchers are good. Also, when Pitchers are not Pitching good, it is simple as they are making to many mistakes, which batters hit, and just not executing their Pitches to make it difficult for the batter to hit.
    Posted by bobbysu[/QUOTE]

    Woolner's findings were published in 1999, more than 10 years ago.  The data that Woolner was working with was just not extensive enough.  Since then, advancements have been made in technology, most notably the introduction of PITCHf/x in 2008, which have allowed the baseball geeks to get a more in depth look at how a catcher effects a pitcher.  The results of several more recent studies have shown the opposite of Woolner's original findings.

    Incidentally, Woolner himself stated that there were areas in which a catcher might affect a pitcher that he did not look into. He stated "Nothing in this study precludes any of the possibilities from being true, and this is a promising line for future investigation."
     
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    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    As far as whether it's time to bench Salty or not, his offense, or lack thereof is not at big a concern for me as it seems to be to some others.  While it would be nice if he could improve his plate discipline and his OBP, his most important role is in handling the pitchers.  If the rest of the lineup were producing, Salty's offensive problems would not be nearly the issue that it is.

    While I still don't think he's a good defensive catcher, I do agree that he's improving.  He also reportedly has a very good work ethic and a great attitude, which bodes well for continued improvement, IMO.
     
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    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In Response to Re: Time to Bench Salty:
    [QUOTE]Overall moonslav has been pretty credible on CERA.  He sees where it makes sense and where it doesn't necessarily.  Forgetting CERA, it's a fact Shoppach had a better won lost record in games he caught than did Salty.  That and maybe a couple of other things (nailing baserunners, errors, PB's, etc) is why he went to Bobby V and asked for more starts at catcher and then went public when he didn't get them.   Totally agree, especially on the going public part as maybe one reason he is still not here. My problem these days is Salty looks stupid at the plate, and I can't help but think he must be stupid behind it too.  Totally unfair judgment, I admit.  It's not as clear cut as stupid vs smart. Smart players aren't always the best hitters either. One can know what he is doing wrong, try to correct it, but still strike out. baseball is a tough game. His hitting is torturous to watch right now, I agree.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]
    Stupid/smart is a complex notion as it's applied to various activities. Baseball is one of them. There have been plenty of "heady" ballplayers who couldn't hit a lick. Moe Berg, a genius, was not much as a catcher. There also have been a few "savants" who just seemed born to hit -- and then might have augmented their natural talent by studying THAT activity. Whether they went to college or to which college, or even finished high school, has no bearing on the matter. Breslow has degrees in science from Yale. Is he therefore a "smarter" pitcher than ( name a top lefty, or even a good one )?  
    Baseball "smarts" ( or feel or instinct ) are not necessarily related to book smarts or mechanical smarts or social smarts or criminal smarts. ( A little bit of the last can help. ) Anyone who has played a lot of highly competitive baseball knows all of this at first hand. 
    It has been averred that Salty is not a fast learner. You, Moon, have dealt nicely and factually with that contention, and have shown that Salty on defense occupies roughly the same track that Tek did. What's more, Salty's pace of development does not differ from that of most other catchers. Even more to the point, though a catcher might seem to have "suddenly got it," the event is more likely a breakthrough fostered by cumulative knowledge. This phenomenon occurs in all kinds of learning. Apparently, what was piecemeal comes together in a whole. It can but normally does not happen automatically. It is the result of a lot of effort and "study" of the activity. 
    Salty is now a good catcher, perhaps even better than that.
    He does need to get "smarter" at the plate. I've commented elsewhere, as has Southpaw, on the specifics. Salty's future in Boston, or elsewhere, could be jeopardized if he does not begin to make adjustments with the bat. 

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    This thread makes me smile.

    Amidst all the nonsense surrounding this team, Saltalamacchia garners one of the threads with the most posts.

    My thoughts on the topic (I love Salty!) are not the point. My point is that baseball, real baseball issues/topics/points of debate will always trump the garbage around here in the long run.

    The drama will eventually be over, and we can, thankfully, finally, get back to baseball.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    Excellent focused debate here. It's good to see us all, including myself, keeping this about baseball.

    Eveyone knows I'm big on using OPS as my favorite stat on offense, although I have mentioned it overly favors SLG, and I can see Salty rates pretty low on our team rigth now, but I guess I don't expect my catcher to compare favorably to my 1Bman or any other position, except maybe SS. I look at defense and pitcher handling first. Offense is a bonus.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    Now my thoughts:

    His batting has been atrocious of late...or over a month. I'd stick with him. I still think there is a potentially very good player there. If you want to let Lavarnway DH I see no problem with that, and even a spot start at C here and there. At 27, the ceiling is still very much there with Saltalamacchia. Nothing is going to save the season at this point, I fell it's better to just give him the vote of confidence and see where it lands. I still see no problem with a Lav/Satly DH/C platoon. Both get to play every day, and catching 80 games apiece is managable for a player and reasonable for the team.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In Response to Re: Time to Bench Salty:
    [QUOTE]As far as whether it's time to bench Salty or not, his offense, or lack thereof is not at big a concern for me as it seems to be to some others.  While it would be nice if he could improve his plate discipline and his OBP, his most important role is in handling the pitchers.  If the rest of the lineup were producing, Salty's offensive problems would not be nearly the issue that it is. While I still don't think he's a good defensive catcher, I do agree that he's improving.  He also reportedly has a very good work ethic and a great attitude, which bodes well for continued improvement, IMO.
    Posted by RedSoxKimmi[/QUOTE]

    So you are "not worried about his offense" and admit that he's "not a good defensive catcher". What does that leave him? He has been around long enough to "get it"....or not get it. Guess this is what you mean by supporting the team. Bad players also get your support. Another example of the way you post that some here and elsewhere find offensive: "If its our player he can do no wrong". Besides, he has a "good work ethic"...and probably "calls a good game" too.
    Uggh.
     

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