Time to Bench Salty

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In Response to Re: Time to Bench Salty:
    [QUOTE]Excellent focused debate here. It's good to see us all, including myself, keeping this about baseball. Eveyone knows I'm big on using OPS as my favorite stat on offense, although I have mentioned it overly favors SLG, and I can see Salty rates pretty low on our team rigth now, but I guess I don't expect my catcher to compare favorably to my 1Bman or any other position, except maybe SS. I look at defense and pitcher handling first. Offense is a bonus.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    So much for that. It was nice, while it lasted.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In Response to Re: Time to Bench Salty:
    [QUOTE]Now my thoughts: His batting has been atrocious of late...or over a month. I'd stick with him. I still think there is a potentially very good player there. If you want to let Lavarnway DH I see no problem with that, and even a spot start at C here and there. At 27, the ceiling is still very much there with Saltalamacchia. Nothing is going to save the season at this point, I fell it's better to just give him the vote of confidence and see where it lands. I still see no problem with a Lav/Satly DH/C platoon. Both get to play every day, and catching 80 games apiece is managable for a player and reasonable for the team.
    Posted by ma6dragon9[/QUOTE]
    Obviously, I agree about Salty.
    Salty doesn't appear to hit well enough overall to be a good DH. We have yet to learn whether this reservation also applies to Lavarnway. As you know, hitting requirements differ between catchers and DH's.
    We'll have to see.
    Otherwise, if neither is traded, the Sox may well go with a Salty/Lavarnway platoon behind the plate in 2013, the division of labor to be decided. I've expressed reservations about that arrangement, but they may not be shared by the team or by Lavarnway or by Salty. Though one may wonder about the last named.  Something like a 50/50 split would, in effect, be a demotion for him after two years as the starter and manifest improvement, as several of us have observed. 
    Once again, we'll have to see.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    I guess Shoppach was a cancer in the clubhouse despite the 26-16 win loss mark. Who knows anymore. Salty is in a hellacious downturn at the plate, and Lavarnway can barely hit himself. Both guys can still catch, but at the same time would it matter if the Sox went out and got a veteran catcher by 2013. I don't think it would make a difference.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In Response to Re: Time to Bench Salty:
    [QUOTE]I guess Shoppach was a cancer in the clubhouse despite the 26-16 win loss mark. Who knows anymore. Salty is in a hellacious downturn at the plate, and Lavarnway can barely hit himself. Both guys can still catch, but at the same time would it matter if the Sox went out and got a veteran catcher by 2013. I don't think it would make a difference.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]
    Danny,
    If the Sox trade either Salty or Lavarnway in the offseason, the club will probably bring in a vet as back-up. If both are on the roster when the club breaks camp, we'll either know by then or will soon find out what the club has in mind for them. 
    Right now we hope that one of them, at least, hits better this season.
    For the moment, all is speculation.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In Response to Re: Time to Bench Salty:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Time to Bench Salty : So you are "not worried about his offense" and admit that he's "not a good defensive catcher". What does that leave him? He has been around long enough to "get it"....or not get it. Guess this is what you mean by supporting the team. Bad players also get your support. Another example of the way you post that some here and elsewhere find offensive: "If its our player he can do no wrong". Besides, he has a "good work ethic"...and probably "calls a good game" too. Uggh.
    Posted by pumpsie-green[/QUOTE]

    Pumpsie, it's no secret that some here and elsewhere also find the way you post to be 'offensive'.  And when this is brought up to you, you say things like  'too bad, this is me expressing myself, and I'm going to continue to do so etc.'.

    I find it extremely hypocritical of you to keep attacking Kimmi like this.  And as for what she said about Salty, you seem to be misinterpreting it anyway.  She's saying defence is the most important thing for a catcher, and Salty, while not a good defensive catcher yet, is improving.  That's all she's saying.    
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In Response to Re: Time to Bench Salty:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Time to Bench Salty : Pumpsie, it's no secret that some here and elsewhere also find the way you post to be 'offensive'.  And when this is brought up to you, you say things like  'too bad, this is me expressing myself, and I'm going to continue to do so etc.'. I find it extremely hypocritical of you to keep attacking Kimmi like this.  And as for what she said about Salty, you seem to be misinterpreting it anyway.  She's saying defence is the most important thing for a catcher, and Salty, while not a good defensive catcher yet, is improving.  That's all she's saying.    
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]

    Thanks Bob.  Kiss
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In Response to Re: Time to Bench Salty:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Time to Bench Salty : Pumpsie, it's no secret that some here and elsewhere also find the way you post to be 'offensive'.  And when this is brought up to you, you say things like  'too bad, this is me expressing myself, and I'm going to continue to do so etc.'. I find it extremely hypocritical of you to keep attacking Kimmi like this.  And as for what she said about Salty, you seem to be misinterpreting it anyway.  She's saying defence is the most important thing for a catcher, and Salty, while not a good defensive catcher yet, is improving.  That's all she's saying.    
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]

    I am not attacking Kimmi; I don't even know her. I am sure she is a fine person and if we met over a coffee or whatever we would do fine. What I object to is the way she posts because it sounds too much like a cheerleader..one sided. She is free to make similar comments about the way I post if she likes. I never pretended to be free of enemies here or anywhere else. That said, I NEVER initiate personal stuff on any forum and rarely respond for long to any initiated against me. I comment on THE POSTS of other people, either the content or the tone. And you are right: I have no plans to change my style here, nor do I expect others to change, including Kimmi.
    BTW: are you the Hfx from Sawxheads? Just curious. I suspect so.
     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In Response to Re: Time to Bench Salty:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Time to Bench Salty : I am not attacking Kimmi; I don't even know her. I am sure she is a fine person and if we met over a coffee or whatever we would do fine. What I object to is the way she posts because it sounds too much like a cheerleader..one sided. She is free to make similar comments about the way I post if she likes. I never pretended to be free of enemies here or anywhere else. That said, I NEVER initiate personal stuff on any forum and rarely respond for long to any initiated against me. I comment on THE POSTS of other people, either the content or the tone. And you are right: I have no plans to change my style here, nor do I expect others to change, including Kimmi. BTW: are you the Hfx from Sawxheads? Just curious. I suspect so.
    Posted by pumpsie-green[/QUOTE]

    Of course it's me.

    My objection is that I think you aren't just responding to Kimmi's posts; I find that you are getting personal with her.  Using words like cheerleading, syrupy, nauseating etc. and bringing up history from another board.  That crosses the line from responding to the content of a post.  If I said 'every single one of your posts is boring, pointless, idiotic tripe, and a lot of other people feel the same way' I would expect you to take that personally.


     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In Response to Re: Time to Bench Salty:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Time to Bench Salty : Of course it's me. My objection is that I think you aren't just responding to Kimmi's posts; I find that you are getting personal with her.  Using words like cheerleading, syrupy, nauseating etc. and bringing up history from another board.  That crosses the line from responding to the content of a post.  If I said 'every single one of your posts is boring, pointless, idiotic tripe, and a lot of other people feel the same way' I would expect you to take that personally.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]

    OK...I will see what I can do to tone it down a bit as long as the cheerleading is not over the top.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    Obviously, I agree about Salty.
    Salty doesn't appear to hit well enough overall to be a good DH. We have yet to learn whether this reservation also applies to Lavarnway. As you know, hitting requirements differ between catchers and DH's.
    We'll have to see.
    Otherwise, if neither is traded, the Sox may well go with a Salty/Lavarnway platoon behind the plate in 2013, the division of labor to be decided. I've expressed reservations about that arrangement, but they may not be shared by the team or by Lavarnway or by Salty. Though one may wonder about the last named.  Something like a 50/50 split would, in effect, be a demotion for him after two years as the starter and manifest improvement, as several of us have observed. 
    Once again, we'll have to see.  -expitch

    I agree, I can't see a 50-50 catcher/DH split next year. Salty is not a good enough hitter to DH, and he appears to be pretty far ahead of Lava on catcher defense (except maybe throwing) and handling our fragile and expensive staff. 

    Again, If Papi stays, I am nearly certain one will be traded. If Papi walks, we may see Salty catch 65% like this year, almostb exclusively vs RH'ed starters, Lava catch vs LH'd starters, and DH vs most RH'd starters. That would also strengthen our need for a RH'd bat to DH vs LHPs (Ross?) and maybe play OF vs RHPs.

     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In Response to Re: Time to Bench Salty:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Time to Bench Salty : OK...I will see what I can do to tone it down a bit as long as the cheerleading is not over the top.
    Posted by pumpsie-green[/QUOTE]

    BS.

    Kimmi's post about Salty wasn't "over the top"
    It was a realistic post about his season this year.

    You ripped it anyway, because she didn't criticize him enough for your taste.

    The bully always blames the victim.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In Response to Re: Time to Bench Salty:
    [QUOTE]DH'ing a catcher on a regular basis isn't going to happen as long as the Red Sox only carry 2 catchers.
    Posted by TrotterNixon[/QUOTE]

    I don't agree with this statement, but it's quite possibly the only post in the past 10,000 posts by TrotSoft that stuck completely to baseball without it becoming a political, poster-bashing, player-denigrating post....I'm complimenting you by the way, Trots...keep up the good posts. :-)
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    Theoretically, yes, if a catcher got hurt, you have to take the other guy in the lineup and make him catcher...you might lose the DH...I say big whoop---all it means is you become a NL team at that point of the game. First of all, it's an Inside the Box way of thinking to say you can't use 2 catchers in the same game. Second of all, everyone assumes that you the 2nd catcher is going to get hurt if they are both in the lineup. It never happened when Shoppach and Salty were in the lineup at the same time. 
    No one got hurt, and the DH was never lost. I think you can have a 2-catcher team that plays both guys in the same lineup. It's not that out of this world thinking.  And how many times did we see a catcher replace a catcher in the same game--quite a few. Salty for instance in that 2-1 win over Texas....What's the difference then? They had one catcher, the other way came in and they were down to one catcher. It's not that big a deal. I'm just responding to Trots post, which again I applaud because it's about baseball purely.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    Theoretically, yes, if a catcher got hurt, you have to take the other guy in the lineup and make him catcher...you might lose the DH...I say big whoop---all it means is you become a NL team at that point of the game. First of all, it's an Inside the Box way of thinking to say you can't use 2 catchers in the same game. Second of all, everyone assumes that you the 2nd catcher is going to get hurt if they are both in the lineup. It never happened when Shoppach and Salty were in the lineup at the same time. 
    No one got hurt, and the DH was never lost. I think you can have a 2-catcher team that plays both guys in the same lineup. It's not that out of this world thinking.  And how many times did we see a catcher replace a catcher in the same game--quite a few. Salty for instance in that 2-1 win over Texas....What's the difference then? They had one catcher, the other way came in and they were down to one catcher. It's not that big a deal. I'm just responding to Trots post, which again I applaud because it's about baseball purely.

    I agree, and if you look at this year as an example, the only times we used 2 catchers were not really out of necessity, but because traditionally Salty and Shopp have had huge split differentials that made pinch-hitting desirable in the end game. With Salty and Lava, the differentials are not so pronounced. We may want to PH for Salty late in a game vs a LHP, but that's about it. I don't see us pinch hitting for Lava much unless he bombs out.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    There appear to be at least three schools of thought about Salty on this board:
    1. He's doing a bad job and is unlikely to get much better.
    2. He's not good on defense but is improving.
    3. He's doing well enough on defense, possibly better than that, has shown remarkable improvement this season, and it still improving.

    Moon, Danny, Southpaw, I, and others are in Camp 3.
    Boom, Harv, Softy, and others are in Camp 1.
    Kimmi and several others are in Camp 2.

    People who either toss in or fixate upon Salty's "defensive weakness" seem unwilling to acknowledge that there is a Camp 3. Exclude me, but there are people in Camp 3 who are knowledgeable about this game, pay close attention, and are fair-minded. All have deplored Salty's slide at the plate. I understand that people who use the phrase "Salty's poor defense," even in passing, often in passing, are expressing an opinion. But most of them do not even seem to grant that there might be respectable opinions that differ from theirs. 
    Posters in Camp 3, Moon in particular, have devoted considerable time and effort, often with close analysis ( as in my tracking of pitches, handling of tempo, etc ), to making the case that Salty has made noteworthy improvement and is now at the very least a satisfactory defensive catcher, and getting better. I give him higher marks than that, but my purpose here is not to dwell on that, or even to claim that I am indisputably correct.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In Response to Re: Time to Bench Salty:
    [QUOTE]There appear to be at least three schools of thought about Salty on this board: 1. He's doing a bad job and is unlikely to get much better. 2. He's not good on defense but is improving. 3. He's doing well enough on defense, possibly better than that, has shown remarkable improvement this season, and it still improving. Moon, Danny, Southpaw, I, and others are in Camp 3. Boom, Harv, Softy, and others are in Camp 1. Kimmi and several others are in Camp 2. People who either toss in or fixate upon Salty's "defensive weakness" seem unwilling to acknowledge that there is a Camp 3. Exclude me, but there are people in Camp 3 who are knowledgeable about this game, pay close attention, and are fair-minded. All have deplored Salty's slide at the plate. I understand that people who use the phrase "Salty's poor defense," even in passing, often in passing, are expressing an opinion. But most of them do not even seem to grant that there might be respectable opinions that differ from theirs.  Posters in Camp 3, Moon in particular, have devoted considerable time and effort, often with close analysis ( as in my tracking of pitches, handling of tempo, etc ), to making the case that Salty has made noteworthy improvement and is now at the very least a satisfactory defensive catcher, and getting better. I give him higher marks than that, but my purpose here is not to dwell on that, or even to claim that I am indisputably correct.
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]
    To sum up ( which I should have done earlier ), when a statement like "Salty's poor defense" is spoken baldly in passing, it implies that the judgment is virtually unanimous. Clearly, it is not. There is even disagreement about assumptions behind evaluating catcher defense, the choice and ranking of criteria, and the application of them to specific catchers -- in other words, context.
    Disagreement about these topics is not limited to this board, not surprisingly, given the current state of defensive metrics. 

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    Catcher defense has always been hard to quantify. In the past, many casual fans looked at CS%, PB totals, Fldg%, and personal observations to make judgements. Most fans rarely watched catchers on other teams too closely, and may never even have seen several catchers catch over several years.

    With so many variables and intangibles involved in catcher defense and pitching staff handling, some fans just throw their hands in the air, and just go by what their gut tells them (from observations) and/or the traditional stats used to judge catchers by for years.

    Salty's career CS% is 23%, and it is down to 18% this year. Salty must not be improving, they deduce. Putting context into CS numbers, almost every knowledgable Sox fans know our staff has struggled with holding men on base, and the team philosophy has been lax in this area for years. For instance, Shoppach went from 41% in 2011 to 34% in 2012 when coming to Boston. Again, I will say that even if you want to put the full blame of the excess SBs on Salty and not the staff, and Salty had the league average CS rate, he'd only have about 8-10 more CS's over the full 2012 season. For this alone, some have totally written him off. softy, for one, who over the years has minimized the importance of SB when evaluating Jacoby's overall skills, now suddenly feels like opponent's SBs are the front and center issue with a catcher's defense. Go figure.

    But, then when you look at PBs and WPs, Salty has vastly improved over 2011.
    2011: 26 PB/ 41 WP in 856 innings (PB+ WP 0.078 per inning)
    2012:   5 PB/ 21 WP in 681 innings (PB + WP 0.038 per inning)
    I'm really finding it hard to believe that those who are relying on their personal observations have not noticed a great improvement in Salty's blocking bad pitches skill. It's really night and day from last year.

    Salty's Flg% (the worst stat in MLB) is higher in 2011-2012 with Boston than previously in his career.

    His handling of the staff has improved enormously from 2011 and up to April 25th of this season. He has a 4.05 CERA after April 25. Maybe that is still not good enough for some posters, and I have no problem with that, but some want to deny an improvement has even happened, or they want to minimize an improvement from...
    2011: 4.60 CERA
    2012: 7.24 CERA before April 26th.
    2012: 4.05 CERA after April 25th.
    It's about a 3/4 run improvement per game. That's like 120 RBIs (.75 x 160 games) added to his total if we were to give him full credit for saving .75 runs per game over his earlier career work. I'm way over simplifying, I know, but you get my point.

    Salty is 27. Some catchers learned earlier than Salty, some learned later or much later, but on the defensive part of Salty's game, it seems strange that so many Sox fans want to give up on Salty mainly because of his defense, but now with the slump, it's a total write-off. 

    I totally get the argument to give Lavarnway a shot. He has high offensive potential, and our offense has sputtered, especially with Papi out. I just don't get all the Salty defensive bashing. Even if you still view Salty as below average or bottom 33% on defense, it's impossible, IMO, to deny he has improved.

    This winter will be an interesting time.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    One game does not a summer make. But Salty walked twice, lined out, and homered. He also threw a rocket to nail a runner at second.
    Yes, we all want to see Lavarnway get some kind of shot. But he might not be in the lineup because he's not hitting and is not as good as Salty on defense. Not yet, anyway. It's also good to keep in mind that, as things now stand, Salty is fighting to keep his job. Maybe he doesn't relish the prospect of a trade, though I think he'd rather be traded to a team that would make him the starter than go head to head with Lavarnway in ST for the starting job. Who could blame him at this point in his career. If he's put on the block, there will be takers. Tampa Bay and Oakland, to start with, might have pitching prospects they'd be willing to move for a catcher with pop. And, who knows, a few GM's might even think that he's pretty good on defense.
    Tonight's performance at the plate does not mean that Salty has broken out of his slump. But better than 0 for 4 with three K's. 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    It was a good confidence game for Salty, I think he gets a lot of abuse to be honest from fans who don't know any better. Yes, he has slumped and that seems to be a constant for a lot of regular catchers on a lot of teams...inherent to the job I think, But he jacked No. 21 and he did show patience at the plate. I'd like to think maybe there's a little pressure off him since the Shoppach deal. It seems it could have been why he was pressing. Now he just has young Lavarnway, who unfortunately has hit like a Kevin Cash in his callup.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    Here's one for Salty fans...the average distance of his home runs this year (per ESPN HR Tracker) is 400 feet.  He is a strong kid.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    H, he really has hit some mammoth blasts. That one he hit to center on the road was a monster shot....forgot where. 
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    In Response to Re: Time to Bench Salty:
    [QUOTE]H, he really has hit some mammoth blasts. That one he hit to center on the road was a monster shot....forgot where. 
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    He hit a 466 foot shot to center off Cliff Lee.  This HR Tracker site is incredible.  Here's a link to Salty's list of 2012 home runs.  When you click through you can watch a replay of each one.

    http://hittrackeronline.com/detail.php?id=2012_218&type=hitter
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Time to Bench Salty

    that's it...that ball was crushed!!!!  he's got a powerful swing.
     

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