Time to Stop Ripping Beckett

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    Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett

    In Response to Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett:
    [QUOTE]Common moon just say it, Beckett has been the ultimate dissapointment on the starting staff since 2009.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    Beckett had the lowest WHIP of his career last year.  He must have been ever more ultimately dissapointing every other year.

     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett : Yosh, he appeared on Kevin Millar's show and finally broke silence on the whole end-of-season debacle and chickengate.  He, as usual, took full responisibility for the lack of performance ... and, as per his M.O. ... did not give the salivating, witch-hunting hordes and media their much-desired mia culpa for his bud lite transgressions.  He basically dismissed the issue as "what goes on in the clubhouse should stay in the clubhouse".  
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]


    Ah.  I thought he burned down Fenway  or something.  
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett : Ah.  I thought he burned down Fenway  or something.  
    Posted by Yoshimi25[/QUOTE]

    You will be pleased to know Yoshi that you can cheer the Red Sox on, but you should not know what is going on in the clubhouse...like vegas, it can not be known...even if you pay $200 a ticket and take your family to spring training....
    -josh beckett wisdom
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett : Ah.  I thought he burned down Fenway  or something.  
    Posted by Yoshimi25[/QUOTE]

    This brought to my mind images of Josh running the grease too hot in his clubhouse deep fryer and torching the place while trying to cook chicken in the middle of a game.  Lester, Lackey and Beckett all trying desparately to spray beer shotguns to douse the flames.
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett : This brought to my mind images of Josh running the grease too hot in his clubhouse deep fryer and torching the place while trying to cook chicken in the middle of a game.  Lester, Lackey and Beckett all trying desparately to spray beer shotguns to douse the flames.
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]

    I have to draw this....
     
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    Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett

    m
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

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      I don't agree for one minute with those who just brush off the beer drinking during the game as no big deal. That sort of behavior has got to stop. There has to be better discipline on the club. The players involved have got to be in better condition down the stretch this season.  However , it is now time to get over it. A new season is starting soon. Wipe the slate clean and start over.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from NunciRom. Show NunciRom's posts

    Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett

    In Response to Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett:
    [QUOTE]  I don't agree for one minute with those who just brush off the beer drinking during the game as no big deal. That sort of behavior has got to stop. There has to be better discipline on the club. The players involved have got to be in better condition down the stretch this season.  However , it is now time to get over it. A new season is starting soon. Wipe the slate clean and start over.
    Posted by dgalehouse[/QUOTE]

    Are you bad-mouthing my older brother George?

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett

    In Response to Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett:
    [QUOTE]  I don't agree for one minute with those who just brush off the beer drinking during the game as no big deal. That sort of behavior has got to stop. There has to be better discipline on the club. The players involved have got to be in better condition down the stretch this season.  However , it is now time to get over it. A new season is starting soon. Wipe the slate clean and start over.
    Posted by dgalehouse[/QUOTE]

    This is the underlying sentiment for my brushing off of the chicken and the beer.  I do think that Beckett's conditioning was likely responsible for his ankle tweak that derialed an otherwise stellarr season, as it has for the last 4 or so years.  And, surely chicken and beer in the clubhouse was a representative sample of the lack of respect that Josh has had for his body.  So, I do not think it is simply to be brushed off.  I hope that the whole debacle has helped him to see that his lack of fitness undermines his well-earned status as a team leader and a top-flight pitcher.  And may he change his ways.

    But, its time to just move on already.  He is staying on this roster (thankfully), 2011 is dead and gone, and a new season fast approaches.  I take a flippant stance on all-things-Beckett these days because there is just so much kindling to be burned before it is just annoying smoke.



     
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    Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett

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    Josh Beckett has always had the makings of a great pitcher. In Boston he achieved that level once for a full season, in 2007.  Otherwise, for various and sundry reasons, not all injury-related, he's been unable to match that standard. He has two or three years ahead to show what he's made of. 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from caseycsw. Show caseycsw's posts

    Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett

    As I said in my earlier post,  Beckett showed a lack of PR skills when he embraced the "clubhouse code".  This is not exactly BPD/NYPD terrain.  To assume that Geo is a chronically disgruntled Bosox fan who represents NOBODY in RSN or MLB at large is absurd.  In my brief travels across a number of different MLB fan sites, there has been a fair amount of negative reaction to Beckett's comments.  It does NOT matter that the causal dimensions of Fowl Beer did or did not affect the team performance.  People here are rushing to point out it had NO bearing on the Bosox el foldo.  Well, that might be correct in the real world, but the reality of the perceptual assumptions among many fans is that it was either causal or a serious symptom of a dysfunctional team....As far as I am concerned, Beckett was obtuse at best, and indifferent at worst when he made those comments.  Kids can understand the concept of drinking beer during a ball game, and whether those kids have parents struggling with substance abuse issues or not, they deserve a baseball role model who speaks carefully on the issue.  In my opinion, to say what he said, especially given the fact that kids are looking up to him, shows a kind of adolescent, pissy, and "I am entitled" insensitivity that is completely lacking in class...He has had plenty of time to think about how he might respond on a live MLB show so he gets no pass from me.  Beckett is a really, really good pitcher, but he is yet another baseball-moneyed brat in my book....
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett

    The problem with last year is how some overblow the so-called chicken and beer. That wasn't the issue. There's always food in the clubhouse after the game and beer. If they were doing it during the game, that's unprofessional, but even if they didn't, players who got themselves out of shape, likely still would have.

    The real issue IMO is simply how bad habits that might not have been a big deal at the beginning slowly grew in small increments that by the time it was seen to be a problem, it was too late. That hardly makes them unique. That's life. You develop a bad habit that at the start, isn't an issue but over time it can build and before you know it, it becomes a real problem. 

    The problem last year is that after a slow first two weeks, the Sox over the next 4 1/2 months, they're rolling and have the best record in the A.L. So it's understandable when the players themselves don't realize how the bad habits are hurting the team. That's human nature. But when the team started to struggle -- and a lot of it had nothing to do with bad habits but simply lack of starting pitching -- they weren't mentally strong enough to battle through it because of those bad habits.

    There was nothing sinister behind those bad habits. The players, even Beckett, weren't evil. Beckett didn't push a 60-year-old traveling secretary. He didn't molest a coed a restroom. Didn't abuse drugs. Didn't get into a bar fight or any of the real serious transgressions/crimes we read about with athletes all the time that really are deserving of our wrath.

    Beckett's and the other's worst sin was a bit of unprofessionalism. Some of it might even have been bonding at the start -- a beer together to celebrate a win even if the game isn't over -- before it turned into something that hurt the team. There certainly was a lack of leadership or more likely, an unwillingness to accept leadership.

    The venom spewed at some of the players -- Beckett especially -- is so pathetically ridiculous. It says more of the character of those individuals than it does for the players. If what happened makes you to not like the guy, fine. But to go so far as to want the guy to fail even if it means the team fails is unbelievable. People make mistakes. What does it say for the character of individuals who are so blackhearted they can't forgive -- or at least give those who made the mistakes the chance to atone.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett

    Roy, i applaud you for trying to be at least open minded to think about the consequences of beckett's behavior - something his defenders wont even admit to, but what he did was just as bad as pushing a man in a tantrum fit because he didnt get his way (like Manny)...

    he disrespected the game, his teammates, and mostly the fans with his cavaliar, imature and pig-headed behavior...a behavior that he apparently never bothered enough to change according to his manager from TEN YEARS AGO. I could care less if you are too stoned to play or to fat to play, it makes no defference - you let your team down...

    As Andre pointed out, Beckett was given that huge pay increase last year because he was cited as being a role model for younger players...does any of this matter at all??? karma is real Roy, when Manny pulled his garbage act one too many times, he was gone....the same will happen to Beckett -

    You and others may choose to cheer him on...thats OK with me, I will pass on that...I have no use for him just like Manny when he fouled up one too many times...but a leopard doesnt change his spots - the same selfishness that made Josh bean serveral Yankee players in 2010 despite the consequences of choosing that action, or retire to the clubhouse in the midst of a sept. pennant race to have beers and further fatten his already bloated body, will always remain...it is just a matter of time before the perfect storm of Valentine, the fan's patience, and his own bull-headedness does him in....
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett

    In Response to Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett:
    [QUOTE]Roy, i applaud you for trying to be at least open minded to think about the consequences of beckett's behavior - something his defenders wont even admit to, but what he did was just as bad as pushing a man in a tantrum fit because he didnt get his way (like Manny)... he disrespected the game, his teammates, and mostly the fans with his cavaliar, imature and pig-headed behavior...a behavior that he apparently never bothered enough to change according to his manager from TEN YEARS AGO. I could care less if you are too stoned to play or to fat to play, it makes no defference - you let your team down... As Andre pointed out, Beckett was given that huge pay increase last year because he was cited as being a role model for younger players...does any of this matter at all??? karma is real Roy, when Manny pulled his garbage act one too many times, he was gone....the same will happen to Beckett - You and others may choose to cheer him on...thats OK with me, I will pass on that...I have no use for him just like Manny when he fouled up one too many times...but a leopard doesnt change his spots - the same selfishness that made Josh bean serveral Yankee players in 2010 despite the consequences of choosing that action, or retire to the clubhouse in the midst of a sept. pennant race to have beers and further fatten his already bloated body, will always remain...it is just a matter of time before the perfect storm of Valentine, the fan's patience, and his own bull-headedness does him in....
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]

    Comparing what Beckett did to Manny is quite a stretch. Whatever Beckett did or didn't do, he never pulled anything on the field like Manny did -- holding the bat and let three pitches go by, refusing to go in as PH, not running hard, etc. And it is kind of ridiculous the way you keep waving that Yankees game like it defines how he plays the game, rather than all the other games he played. 

    Beckett, whatever his faults, always competes at a high level. That's a huge seperation between him and Manny.

    Beyond that, you're judging what kind of shape he is based on how he looks in a baggy uniform. By all accounts, he actually came into camp last year in good shape. Guys like him can be in good shape and still not have the best-looking physique. And he was great for five months before injuring his ankle, which IMO had nothing to do with conditioning.

    Yes, McKeon was critical of Beckett from when he was with the Marlins. It doesn't mean he was constantly exhibiting that behaviour all the time with the Red Sox.

    I agree that Beckett does have some baggage in that department. But until last year, there really hasn't been much talk about Beckett in that regard with the Sox. I will say that Beckett not keeping himself in the greatest shape in the offseason was probably the reason for his 2010 season. That's disprespecting himself -- not taking full advantage of his talent -- more than disprespecting the game. 

    If Beckett's 'crime' is that he doesn't work hard enough, that still doesn't make him a bad, evil guy like you're painting him. I'd probably be more upset with him if your rantings -- multiple threads on the topic, really? -- weren't so overboard.

    It's fine if you can't forgive mistakes and judge him on how he handles himself this year and going forward. And it's fine if you don't want to root for him personally. But to me, it's selfish on your part to see him have a bad year even if it means the Sox win just 85 games just so your own grudge with the guy can be justified.



     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett

    In Response to Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett : Comparing what Beckett did to Manny is quite a stretch. Whatever Beckett did or didn't do, he never pulled anything on the field like Manny did -- holding the bat and let three pitches go by, refusing to go in as PH, not running hard, etc. And it is kind of ridiculous the way you keep waving that Yankees game like it defines how he plays the game, rather than all the other games he played.  Beckett, whatever his faults, always competes at a high level. That's a huge seperation between him and Manny. Beyond that, you're judging what kind of shape he is based on how he looks in a baggy uniform. By all accounts, he actually came into camp last year in good shape. Guys like him can be in good shape and still not have the best-looking physique. And he was great for five months before injuring his ankle, which IMO had nothing to do with conditioning. Yes, McKeon was critical of Beckett from when he was with the Marlins. It doesn't mean he was constantly exhibiting that behaviour all the time with the Red Sox. I agree that Beckett does have some baggage in that department. But until last year, there really hasn't been much talk about Beckett in that regard with the Sox. I will say that Beckett not keeping himself in the greatest shape in the offseason was probably the reason for his 2010 season. That's disprespecting himself -- not taking full advantage of his talent -- more than disprespecting the game.  If Beckett's 'crime' is that he doesn't work hard enough, that still doesn't make him a bad, evil guy like you're painting him. I'd probably be more upset with him if your rantings -- multiple threads on the topic, really? -- weren't so overboard. It's fine if you can't forgive mistakes and judge him on how he handles himself this year and going forward. And it's fine if you don't want to root for him personally. But to me, it's selfish on your part to see him have a bad year even if it means the Sox win just 85 games just so your own grudge with the guy can be justified.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    I am being honest and saying right now, I cant forgive him for september...sorry thats how i feel....now what if he comes to camp, works his azz off, pitches like a boss, and acts like one too??? then im wrong....im not running for senate, nor for BDC glory - i am an honest fan(atic) sharing what i believe in a forum created for that purpose...I can say Im wrong (its funny how people criticize my tag line but not yours) but i get it (youre passionate too)....

    but anyone who thinks that im going to spend the rest of the year posting reasons why i think beckett should be traded simply doesnt know me - the only reason i raised these issues was i was tired of reading all the revisionist nonsense supporting selfish Josh when he basically told everyone to F off with that clubhouse behavior defense - and then posters went out of their way to redicule others like myself who said that he wasnt fessing up....we have short memories...too short - but i dont think JB can change who he is -  a lazy, stubborn guy who will not grow old gracefully, or pitch wisely....thats my prediction.....
     
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    Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett

    The problem IMO is that you're saying you can't forgive him w/o really knowing exactly what he did or didn't do. You're cherry-pickingin. You believe the reports that he was drinking beer and eating fried chicken during games yet not believing reports that it wasn't quite as extensive that it's being made out to be nor the reports that he still did all the work beween games that he was supposed to.

    When you start four or five threads that have been on the front page the past few days, you come across as psycotic. And when you post that you'd rather see the Sox win 85 games than to see him do well, that certainly comes across as irrationale pettiness.

    The bigger problem I have is the singling out of Beckett. When a team goes 7-20 in one month, that's a team problem, not one player. Beckett is being singled out as some sort of leader of a frat house when whatever bad habits developed likely develop from multiple players.

    That's why the more I think of it, forgiveness really isn't an issue one way or another. The issue is how Beckett and the others perform going forward. I don't know who did what. So if Beckett, Lester, Youk -- all the returning players -- go out and perform and do what they're supposed to do, then yes, I'll be able to root for them going forward. It's about giving them a chance, rather than forgive. 


     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett

    Roy, the fact that you think that sept is some sort of Fatima mystery and unknown to mankind is simply laughable....there is NO DOUBT what Beckett did (he did it before) and there is no doubt, based on his own manager's public statements, that the clubhouse attitude played a major role in the collapse....who were the veterans that Tito said that he could no longer reach? tito was a classy guy and didnt name names...but he stated the veterans on the staff failed to heed him and have "each others' backs"...

    you keep on clinging to the chicken and beer like its a joke....who cares even if it were slim jims and gatorade???...the fact was that he didnt support his teammates and abandoned his conditioning...he got fat, he pitched lousy, he didnt care....that is a fact....i know if baseball reference doesnt measure it in some quantifiable manner, it is not real to many, but i expect better from you than these old, tired denials...and absolutely, I would rather win 85 games w/o Beckett and jettison his contract and bad att than win 90 and pay him 17mil for medicority (which is what he has been ever other year)...our team would be better off without him - we could get a pitcher who cares about his team, and his body for that price..a real ace...
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

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    In Response to Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett:
    [QUOTE]Nah, Geo was always Geo.  Babe was just a slow-witted Yankee fan.  Geo is just a slow-witted RS fan, imvho.
    Posted by Joebreidey[/QUOTE]

    Speaking of slow witted, who pipes up the the usual troll, HankWilliams. Oh well guess I'll be putting him on ignore like a few other others, Georom4 for one. I'd rather converse with folks that make sense and can back opinions with facts, etc whether or not I agree with thier point of view, unlike the afore mentioned who base opnions on blind hatred. 

    Hetchinspete 
     
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    Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett

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    In Response to Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett:
    [QUOTE]Roy, the fact that you think that sept is some sort of Fatima mystery and unknown to mankind is simply laughable....there is NO DOUBT what Beckett did (he did it before) and there is no doubt, based on his own manager's public statements, that the clubhouse attitude played a major role in the collapse....who were the veterans that Tito said that he could no longer reach? tito was a classy guy and didnt name names...but he stated the veterans on the staff failed to heed him and have "each others' backs"... you keep on clinging to the chicken and beer like its a joke....who cares even if it were slim jims and gatorade???...the fact was that he didnt support his teammates and abandoned his conditioning...he got fat, he pitched lousy, he didnt care....that is a fact....i know if baseball reference doesnt measure it in some quantifiable manner, it is not real to many, but i expect better from you than these old, tired denials... and absolutely, I would rather win 85 games w/o Beckett and jettison his contract and bad att than win 90 and pay him 17mil for medicority (which is what he has been ever other year)...our team would be better off without him - we could get a pitcher who cares about his team, and his body for that price..a real ace...
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]

    Hmm ... sorry I stepped away from my computer when I did last night.

    Well, to quote Ronald Reagan, "There you go again." You're unable  to keep what was a decent conversation going without going off the deep end. Are you that insecure with your position that you have to twist other's meanings and make things up? You did that to a post of mine earlier this year and I let it slide. This is a new year, so I figured I'd start fresh with posters and see what happens.

    Fatima mystery? Nice turn of a phrase but what the he!! does it mean. The September collapse happened because just about no one performed, and there were many reasons for it -- normal slumps, injuries, pressure of trying to get out of the slump, players too concerned with other issues, players not staying in shape, etc. -- pick a player and one or more of might be applicable.

    You say there is no doubt -- excuse me, NO DOUBT (can't leave the all caps out) -- what Beckett did. What exactly did Beckett do or not do? Please, enlighten us all. You were in the clubhouse every day, so of course, you know exactly what his attitude was, exactly how he didn't support or not support his teammates, exactly how he got along with his teammates and exactly what sort of negative influence he was. The reports I read said he did all of his between game work, but I guess you want to cherry pick what reports you'll listen to and what reports you won't.

    I haven't given him a pass. However, I'm not arrogant enough to single out one player and putting all the blame on him like you seem to be doing with Beckett while giving others a pass. It was a team collapse. If it was just Beckett in the clubhouse drinking beer and eating fried chicken, what ... that's going create a 7-20 season. Even if he instigates the times when pitchers left the dugout early to go have "a celebration beer" as Lester put it, how is he more to blame than the others who went along.

    Yes, Francona said the clubhouse attitude played a role. I never said it didn't. Like I said, there were various small things and bad habits that kept building. For example, the complaints about all those consecutive road games in N.L. parks. That by itself isn't a big deal. Leaving the dugout in one game before it's over -- for whatever the reason -- isn't necessarily a big deal by itself. But what seemed to happen is too many of these little things popped up, so I can see how the cumulative effect became the problem. Francona saw it because a manager sees the big picture. All I said was I can see how players, when they're winning, can't see the negative effect of these small things.

    And twisting meanings again -- who ever said the chicken and beer was a joke. The problem is people like you who throw out that phrase like you know what happened. Umm ... where did slim jims and gatorade come from? I said flat out that the problem was that if anyone didn't want to stay in shape, it didn't matter how it happened, it was going to happen.

    You say he didn't support his teammates. Fine. Then put Lester in your target too with both barrels. He was part of the frat house party you're accusing Beckett of starting, wasn't he? You might as well be fair about it. But I guess you can't do that. Poor Lester, we have to cut him a break. The poor feeble-minded bstrd can't think for himself. Call the Scarecrow and see if he can grab another brain from the Wizard. And see if the Lion can scare up some courage for him so he has the guts to stand up to big, bad Beckett.

    And since you have trouble distinguishing fact from opinion -- he didn't care -- no, that's your opinion, that's not a fact. Whatever he was doing didn't pop up in September. Up through the end of August, he was pitching great and was a Cy Young contender. So what -- he cared then but didn't care the last month. 

    Here is a fact. After he injured his ankle in his first start in April, he beat Tampa in his next outing allowing just two earned runs. So he cared that game but not in his final two starts.

    In his second-to-last start, Beckett allowed six runs in 7.1 innings -- but he pitched into the eighth. He allowed two runs in the first six then two in the seventh. Had the bullpen not been so overworked because of all the games that month that starters couldn't get through five, Francona wouldn't have had to push him.

    However, Beckett wants to be considered an ace. When he left that game, his pitch count was just 109 pitches. In the heat of a pennant race, he needs to stay strong throught at least seven but preferably eight. In his last game, he allowed two runs in five before blowing up for four in the sixth.

    If conditioning is the reason for him not being able to stay strong after six innings, that's on him. He does need to be smart enough to know how to keep himself strong throughout the season. If he's not doing that, then yeah, I'm just as critical of him for him as I am for all players.

    So I'm still curious about what I'm denying. Please enlighten. I'm seeing the big picture. However, you're denying that whatever faults Beckett had, whatever effect the clubhouse culture had, the fact is the Sox didn't have enough starting pitching. Bedard couldn't stay healthy after the trade, Buchholz got hurt. Miller was garbage. Wake ran out of gas. And even before the bullpen got overworked, Bard blew up. All of this has nothing to do with any of the off-the-field issues. If the Sox bats came up with a couple of more hits in August when Wake had those four great starts (in that eight-game stretch to 200), the Sox are in the postseason despite everything else.

    No. You simply need to have at least one whipping boy to set your sights on. With Wake and Francona gone, Beckett is your chosen one. But I see you ammended your statement. Now you'd rather win 85 games w/o him than 90 with him. At least this time, you didn't rule out winning a pennant with him as you did an earlier post.

    But I'm curious. If he is such a bad pitcher with a bad attitude and a bad contact, what ace exactly could we get him.
     
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    Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett

    Full disclosure:  This off-season, I have often thought of how much fun it would be sitting around eating fried chicken and drinking beer with josh Beckett.
     
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    In Response to Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett : Hmm ... sorry I stepped away from my computer when I did last night. Well, to quote Ronald Reagan, "There you go again." You're unable  to keep what was a decent conversation going without going off the deep end. Are you that insecure with your position that you have to twist other's meanings and make things up? You did that to a post of mine earlier this year and I let it slide. This is a new year, so I figured I'd start fresh with posters and see what happens. Fatima mystery? Nice turn of a phrase but what the he!! does it mean. The September collapse happened because just about no one performed, and there were many reasons for it -- normal slumps, injuries, pressure of trying to get out of the slump, players too concerned with other issues, players not staying in shape, etc. -- pick a player and one or more of might be applicable. You say there is no doubt -- excuse me, NO DOUBT (can't leave the all caps out) -- what Beckett did. What exactly did Beckett do or not do? Please, enlighten us all. You were in the clubhouse every day, so of course, you know exactly what his attitude was, exactly how he didn't support or not support his teammates, exactly how he got along with his teammates and exactly what sort of negative influence he was. The reports I read said he did all of his between game work, but I guess you want to cherry pick what reports you'll listen to and what reports you won't. I haven't given him a pass. However, I'm not arrogant enough to single out one player and putting all the blame on him like you seem to be doing with Beckett while giving others a pass. It was a team collapse. If it was just Beckett in the clubhouse drinking beer and eating fried chicken, what ... that's going create a 7-20 season. Even if he instigates the times when pitchers left the dugout early to go have "a celebration beer" as Lester put it, how is he more to blame than the others who went along. Yes, Francona said the clubhouse attitude played a role. I never said it didn't. Like I said, there were various small things and bad habits that kept building. For example, the complaints about all those consecutive road games in N.L. parks. That by itself isn't a big deal. Leaving the dugout in one game before it's over -- for whatever the reason -- isn't necessarily a big deal by itself. But what seemed to happen is too many of these little things popped up, so I can see how the cumulative effect became the problem. Francona saw it because a manager sees the big picture. All I said was I can see how players, when they're winning, can't see the negative effect of these small things. And twisting meanings again -- who ever said the chicken and beer was a joke. The problem is people like you who throw out that phrase like you know what happened. Umm ... where did slim jims and gatorade come from? I said flat out that the problem was that if anyone didn't want to stay in shape, it didn't matter how it happened, it was going to happen. You say he didn't support his teammates. Fine. Then put Lester in your target too with both barrels. He was part of the frat house party you're accusing Beckett of starting, wasn't he? You might as well be fair about it. But I guess you can't do that. Poor Lester, we have to cut him a break. The poor feeble-minded bstrd can't think for himself. Call the Scarecrow and see if he can grab another brain from the Wizard. And see if the Lion can scare up some courage for him so he has the guts to stand up to big, bad Beckett. And since you have trouble distinguishing fact from opinion -- he didn't care -- no, that's your opinion, that's not a fact. Whatever he was doing didn't pop up in September. Up through the end of August, he was pitching great and was a Cy Young contender. So what -- he cared then but didn't care the last month.  Here is a fact. After he injured his ankle in his first start in April, he beat Tampa in his next outing allowing just two earned runs. So he cared that game but not in his final two starts. In his second-to-last start, Beckett allowed six runs in 7.1 innings -- but he pitched into the eighth. He allowed two runs in the first six then two in the seventh. Had the bullpen not been so overworked because of all the games that month that starters couldn't get through five, Francona wouldn't have had to push him. However, Beckett wants to be considered an ace. When he left that game, his pitch count was just 109 pitches. In the heat of a pennant race, he needs to stay strong throught at least seven but preferably eight. In his last game, he allowed two runs in five before blowing up for four in the sixth. If conditioning is the reason for him not being able to stay strong after six innings, that's on him. He does need to be smart enough to know how to keep himself strong throughout the season. If he's not doing that, then yeah, I'm just as critical of him for him as I am for all players. So I'm still curious about what I'm denying. Please enlighten. I'm seeing the big picture. However, you're denying that whatever faults Beckett had, whatever effect the clubhouse culture had, the fact is the Sox didn't have enough starting pitching. Bedard couldn't stay healthy after the trade, Buchholz got hurt. Miller was garbage. Wake ran out of gas. And even before the bullpen got overworked, Bard blew up. All of this has nothing to do with any of the off-the-field issues. If the Sox bats came up with a couple of more hits in August when Wake had those four great starts (in that eight-game stretch to 200), the Sox are in the postseason despite everything else. No. You simply need to have at least one whipping boy to set your sights on. With Wake and Francona gone, Beckett is your chosen one. But I see you ammended your statement. Now you'd rather win 85 games w/o him than 90 with him. At least this time, you didn't rule out winning a pennant with him as you did an earlier post. But I'm curious. If he is such a bad pitcher with a bad attitude and a bad contact, what ace exactly could we get him.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    if you think Beckett wasnt anymore to blame than anyone else, then you already have no credibility. The Hohner article, Tito's press conferences, the Sox trainer, and Jack McKeon all confirmed that beckett was an idiot who didnt care about his teammates, his conditioning, and that cost us a playoff spot.

    Remember when I told the board in early 2010 that all the injuries we were having was a direct result of bad conditioning, what did you and the majority of the board say? You LAUGHED at my opinion saying it was moronic. Turns out I was right.

    When I told you that Francona was a weak manager that did not have the command of his players, did nothing to make them mentally tougher, and made them in fact soft and selfish, what did you and tha majority say? Howls of protest. Turns out I was right.

    Now we have your good friend Beckett - same old denials like the last few times...but facts are facts, even if you demand a wire in the clubhouse to chart everyword to know for certain what is being said. Thats not the way life works. Impressions matter - people dont forget, and Karma is real.  Beckett is overpaid, selfish, and a detriment to the team. he was key in 2007 in winning it all for us, but he was key in 2011 in blowing it for us.  Which do you think is more likely to happen again? I made my prediction. You made yours. Let's see who is right.
     
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    Re: Time to Stop Ripping Beckett

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