[QUOTE]Roy, the fact that you think that sept is some sort of Fatima mystery and unknown to mankind is simply laughable....there is NO DOUBT what Beckett did (he did it before) and there is no doubt, based on his own manager's public statements, that the clubhouse attitude played a major role in the collapse....who were the veterans that Tito said that he could no longer reach? tito was a classy guy and didnt name names...but he stated the veterans on the staff failed to heed him and have "each others' backs"... you keep on clinging to the chicken and beer like its a joke....who cares even if it were slim jims and gatorade???...the fact was that he didnt support his teammates and abandoned his conditioning...he got fat, he pitched lousy, he didnt care....that is a fact....i know if baseball reference doesnt measure it in some quantifiable manner, it is not real to many, but i expect better from you than these old, tired denials... and absolutely, I would rather win 85 games w/o Beckett and jettison his contract and bad att than win 90 and pay him 17mil for medicority (which is what he has been ever other year)...our team would be better off without him - we could get a pitcher who cares about his team, and his body for that price..a real ace...
Hmm ... sorry I stepped away from my computer when I did last night.
Well, to quote Ronald Reagan, "There you go again." You're unable to keep what was a decent conversation going without going off the deep end. Are you that insecure with your position that you have to twist other's meanings and make things up? You did that to a post of mine earlier this year and I let it slide. This is a new year, so I figured I'd start fresh with posters and see what happens.
Fatima mystery? Nice turn of a phrase but what the he!! does it mean. The September collapse happened because just about no one performed, and there were many reasons for it -- normal slumps, injuries, pressure of trying to get out of the slump, players too concerned with other issues, players not staying in shape, etc. -- pick a player and one or more of might be applicable.
You say there is no doubt -- excuse me, NO DOUBT (can't leave the all caps out) -- what Beckett did. What exactly did Beckett do or not do? Please, enlighten us all. You were in the clubhouse every day, so of course, you know exactly what his attitude was, exactly how he didn't support or not support his teammates, exactly how he got along with his teammates and exactly what sort of negative influence he was. The reports I read said he did all of his between game work, but I guess you want to cherry pick what reports you'll listen to and what reports you won't.
I haven't given him a pass. However, I'm not arrogant enough to single out one player and putting all the blame on him like you seem to be doing with Beckett while giving others a pass. It was a team collapse. If it was just Beckett in the clubhouse drinking beer and eating fried chicken, what ... that's going create a 7-20 season. Even if he instigates the times when pitchers left the dugout early to go have "a celebration beer" as Lester put it, how is he more to blame than the others who went along.
Yes, Francona said the clubhouse attitude played a role. I never said it didn't. Like I said, there were various small things and bad habits that kept building. For example, the complaints about all those consecutive road games in N.L. parks. That by itself isn't a big deal. Leaving the dugout in one game before it's over -- for whatever the reason -- isn't necessarily a big deal by itself. But what seemed to happen is too many of these little things popped up, so I can see how the cumulative effect became the problem. Francona saw it because a manager sees the big picture. All I said was I can see how players, when they're winning, can't see the negative effect of these small things.
And twisting meanings again -- who ever said the chicken and beer was a joke. The problem is people like you who throw out that phrase like you know what happened. Umm ... where did slim jims and gatorade come from? I said flat out that the problem was that if anyone didn't want to stay in shape, it didn't matter how it happened, it was going to happen.
You say he didn't support his teammates. Fine. Then put Lester in your target too with both barrels. He was part of the frat house party you're accusing Beckett of starting, wasn't he? You might as well be fair about it. But I guess you can't do that. Poor Lester, we have to cut him a break. The poor feeble-minded bstrd can't think for himself. Call the Scarecrow and see if he can grab another brain from the Wizard. And see if the Lion can scare up some courage for him so he has the guts to stand up to big, bad Beckett.
And since you have trouble distinguishing fact from opinion -- he didn't care -- no, that's your opinion, that's not a fact. Whatever he was doing didn't pop up in September. Up through the end of August, he was pitching great and was a Cy Young contender. So what -- he cared then but didn't care the last month.
Here is a fact. After he injured his ankle in his first start in April, he beat Tampa in his next outing allowing just two earned runs. So he cared that game but not in his final two starts.
In his second-to-last start, Beckett allowed six runs in 7.1 innings -- but he pitched into the eighth. He allowed two runs in the first six then two in the seventh. Had the bullpen not been so overworked because of all the games that month that starters couldn't get through five, Francona wouldn't have had to push him.
However, Beckett wants to be considered an ace. When he left that game, his pitch count was just 109 pitches. In the heat of a pennant race, he needs to stay strong throught at least seven but preferably eight. In his last game, he allowed two runs in five before blowing up for four in the sixth.
If conditioning is the reason for him not being able to stay strong after six innings, that's on him. He does need to be smart enough to know how to keep himself strong throughout the season. If he's not doing that, then yeah, I'm just as critical of him for him as I am for all players.
So I'm still curious about what I'm denying. Please enlighten. I'm seeing the big picture. However, you're denying that whatever faults Beckett had, whatever effect the clubhouse culture had, the fact is the Sox didn't have enough starting pitching. Bedard couldn't stay healthy after the trade, Buchholz got hurt. Miller was garbage. Wake ran out of gas. And even before the bullpen got overworked, Bard blew up. All of this has nothing to do with any of the off-the-field issues. If the Sox bats came up with a couple of more hits in August when Wake had those four great starts (in that eight-game stretch to 200), the Sox are in the postseason despite everything else.
No. You simply need to have at least one whipping boy to set your sights on. With Wake and Francona gone, Beckett is your chosen one. But I see you ammended your statement. Now you'd rather win 85 games w/o him than 90 with him. At least this time, you didn't rule out winning a pennant with him as you did an earlier post.
But I'm curious. If he is such a bad pitcher with a bad attitude and a bad contact, what ace exactly could we get him.