Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...

    I'll leave his name out of it, but another amazing Tito hater statement - different on than the one that claims 04 and 07 blind us toward Tito's poor talent set.

    This one claims ...  "I believe this team has under performed since Francona arrived. He inherited a championship team...."

    Gee, really?

       Well first off, we should never, ever talk of the aging Yanquis again.  As I see it, the last championship team was in 1918 .... Dave Shean was 34 or 35 then ... and he'd be playing for Tito at the tender age of 121.  Red Bluhm was a youngster of only 18 - maybe 17 - and maybe the youngest member of the '18 Sox ... and would now be playing at the prime age of 110.

       Now I understand why we had such trouble winning another crown ... 

      

    Come on, guys ... you have hated him so much that you make the team a champion before he came ... and he gets no credit for helping them win?

    Nah.

    Don't see it that way.

    He's not perfect, but this kind of assasination of skill and credit is beyond the pale ...

      NO RED SOX MANAGER ....

      NONE ...

      EVEN THE BST IN THE GAME ....


      Had a championship team ... from 1919 to 2003 ....


      Tito got a very good team.  But NO ONE brought together a championship team until TITO MANAGED THEM TO A TITLE!!!   Then he did it AGAIN!!!!


      I understand your beefs ... but this is truly unfair.  Completely.


     
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...

    In Response to Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...:
    [QUOTE]I'll leave his name out of it, but another amazing Tito hater statement - different on than the one that claims 04 and 07 blind us toward Tito's poor talent set. This one claims ...  " I believe this team has under performed since Francona arrived. He inherited a championship team...." Gee, really?    Well first off, we should never, ever talk of the aging Yanquis again.  As I see it, the last championship team was in 1918 .... Dave Shean was 34 or 35 then ... and he'd be playing for Tito at the tender age of 121.  Red Bluhm was a youngster of only 18 - maybe 17 - and maybe the youngest member of the '18 Sox ... and would now be playing at the prime age of 110.    Now I understand why we had such trouble winning another crown ...     Come on, guys ... you have hated him so much that you make the team a champion before he came ... and he gets no credit for helping them win? Nah. Don't see it that way. He's not perfect, but this kind of assasination of skill and credit is beyond the pale ...   NO RED SOX MANAGER ....   NONE ...   EVEN THE BST IN THE GAME ....   Had a championship team ... from 1919 to 2003 ....   Tito got a very good team.  But NO ONE brought together a championship team until TITO MANAGED THEM TO A TITLE!!!   Then he did it AGAIN!!!!   I understand your beefs ... but this is truly unfair.  Completely.  
    Posted by SinceYaz[/QUOTE]
    Do you truly believe he "led" the 2004 team to a championship?? He was a putrid manager in Philly and because of Schilling, he got the job here. Any high school coach could have won with the 2004 team. The fact that the Sox had to overcome his managerial deficiencies to win speaks for itself. He never was, is not now and never will be a competent baseball manager. The Sox should have been a dynasty in the last seven plus years. Instead fans are grateful that the Sox have been able to overcome a managerial idiot and won 2 titles. They should have been in 4 and maybe 5 World Series in the last 7 plus years. The way i see it, Francona has prevented the team from succeeding 5 out of 7 years that he's been the mangler. So instead of a hero that led the Sox to being called a dynasty, he's held them back from more glory!
    The mentality of some fans was illustrated after yesterdays game...they said,"We won the game, didn't we?" It was another of the 15 to 20 "In Spite Of" games that will happen this year, just as they've happened every year of Francona's tenure here.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...

    In Response to Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...:
    [QUOTE]Any high school coach could have won with the 2004 team.
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]

    Horse manure.  A high school coach would have run screaming from the pressures of dealing with the personalities in that clubhouse, the Boston media and fans and the 86-year 'curse'.

    Plus they had to get past a Yankee team that won 101 games and a Cardinals team that won 105 games.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...

    Actually, Francona inherited a team that had failed to win the WS for 86 years, including when Ted Williams played for them in 1946.  The 2003 team, thanks to a true bonehead manager who was promptly fired, should have gotten to the WS but didn't.  The next year, despite issues with Garciaparra and then Cabrera (which was why the Sox didn't re-sign him for 2005), Francona guided the Sox to their first WS win in forever, then did it again in 2007. 

    And you better believe the players had a lot to do with those WS wins.  Both times, good pitching and good hitting.  But hardly a stacked deck--for that, you need to go to the Yankees, who couldn't even hold a 3-0 lead in the 2004 ALCS. 

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...

    In Response to Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times... : Do you truly believe he "led" the 2004 team to a championship?? He was a putrid manager in Philly and because of Schilling, he got the job here. Any high school coach could have won with the 2004 team. The fact that the Sox had to overcome his managerial deficiencies to win speaks for itself. He never was, is not now and never will be a competent baseball manager. The Sox should have been a dynasty in the last seven plus years. Instead fans are grateful that the Sox have been able to overcome a managerial idiot and won 2 titles. They should have been in 4 and maybe 5 World Series in the last 7 plus years. The way i see it, Francona has prevented the team from succeeding 5 out of 7 years that he's been the mangler. So instead of a hero that led the Sox to being called a dynasty, he's held them back from more glory! The mentality of some fans was illustrated after yesterdays game...they said,"We won the game, didn't we?" It was another of the 15 to 20 "In Spite Of" games that will happen this year, just as they've happened every year of Francona's tenure here.
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]

    Ahhh, citing specifics for your argument as usual, eh '41?
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Calmy. Show Calmy's posts

    Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...

    Hilarious! So Francona inherited the 1918 Red Sox team?  Some of you are real special.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hammah29r2. Show Hammah29r2's posts

    Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...

    not really calmy! some of em are out in left field without a glove,cap or sunglasses.............
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...

    In Response to Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times... : Do you truly believe he "led" the 2004 team to a championship?? He was a putrid manager in Philly and because of Schilling, he got the job here. Any high school coach could have won with the 2004 team. The fact that the Sox had to overcome his managerial deficiencies to win speaks for itself. He never was, is not now and never will be a competent baseball manager. The Sox should have been a dynasty in the last seven plus years. Instead fans are grateful that the Sox have been able to overcome a managerial idiot and won 2 titles. They should have been in 4 and maybe 5 World Series in the last 7 plus years. The way i see it, Francona has prevented the team from succeeding 5 out of 7 years that he's been the mangler. So instead of a hero that led the Sox to being called a dynasty, he's held them back from more glory! The mentality of some fans was illustrated after yesterdays game...they said,"We won the game, didn't we?" It was another of the 15 to 20 "In Spite Of" games that will happen this year, just as they've happened every year of Francona's tenure here.
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]

    Hey '41, what happened to your tagline about the last time Papelbon pitched a 1-2-3 inning?
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from J-BAY. Show J-BAY's posts

    Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...

    In Response to Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times... : Horse manure.  A high school coach would have run screaming from the pressures of dealing with the personalities in that clubhouse, the Boston media and fans and the 86-year 'curse'. Plus they had to get past a Yankee team that won 101 games and a Cardinals team that won 105 games.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]

    not to mention bring a team back from the dead, down 3-0 in the ALCS,  against the same team that took them out of the 2003 playoffs. Yup, anyone could have done that
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...

    In Response to Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times... : not to mention bring a team back from the dead, down 3-0 in the ALCS,  against the same team that took them out of the 2003 playoffs. Yup, anyone could have done that
    Posted by J-BAY[/QUOTE]
    Don't you remember, J-BAY? It was Francona's fault they were 3-0! But he had nothing to do with the comeback.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from summerof67. Show summerof67's posts

    Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...

    Good to see that Tito has some defenders.

    Puzzling that he needs them.



     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...

    In Response to Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times... : Do you truly believe he "led" the 2004 team to a championship?? He was a putrid manager in Philly and because of Schilling, he got the job here. Any high school coach could have won with the 2004 team. The fact that the Sox had to overcome his managerial deficiencies to win speaks for itself. He never was, is not now and never will be a competent baseball manager. The Sox should have been a dynasty in the last seven plus years. Instead fans are grateful that the Sox have been able to overcome a managerial idiot and won 2 titles. They should have been in 4 and maybe 5 World Series in the last 7 plus years. The way i see it, Francona has prevented the team from succeeding 5 out of 7 years that he's been the mangler. So instead of a hero that led the Sox to being called a dynasty, he's held them back from more glory! The mentality of some fans was illustrated after yesterdays game...they said,"We won the game, didn't we?" It was another of the 15 to 20 "In Spite Of" games that will happen this year, just as they've happened every year of Francona's tenure here.
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]

    More nonsense from you.  Go look at the Philly roster and get back to me.  I was there.  Philly suked.  They had no one on the team worth anything accept a young Abreu and Schilling.  Other posters gave you the logical reason Wake was relieved and you can't handle that it makes perfect sense.  Again, the organization knows more than you do. If Wake gave up the runs you would have called that a mistake, too.  Nice try but no one accept your Red Sox 11 lap dog is buying the stuff you are selling.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...

    wasnt the 2003 team almost in the world series? that was a good team...
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...

    Key word there being "almost."
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...

    In Response to Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times... : Hey '41, what happened to your tagline about the last time Papelbon pitched a 1-2-3 inning?
    Posted by LloydDobler[/QUOTE]
    And here I thought you watched the games. He's had a couple of 1-2-3 innings this year, so the tagline wasn't appropriate any more.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...




    Even though I was only 5 I still want 1975 back!  More than 1986 even!  
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...

    In Response to Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times... : And here I thought you watched the games. He's had a couple of 1-2-3 innings this year, so the tagline wasn't appropriate any more.
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]
    Yeah, that was pretty much my point!

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...

    "wasnt the 2003 team almost in the world series? that was a good team..."

    yep, except the manager screwed it up royally so Tito got the job and got it done. Botox can never take that away from him and neither can you. Which is not to say he's perfect. But he won it all. Twice. 


     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxlaxer12. Show redsoxlaxer12's posts

    Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...

    In Response to Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times... : Do you truly believe he "led" the 2004 team to a championship?? He was a putrid manager in Philly and because of Schilling, he got the job here. Any high school coach could have won with the 2004 team. The fact that the Sox had to overcome his managerial deficiencies to win speaks for itself. He never was, is not now and never will be a competent baseball manager. The Sox should have been a dynasty in the last seven plus years. Instead fans are grateful that the Sox have been able to overcome a managerial idiot and won 2 titles. They should have been in 4 and maybe 5 World Series in the last 7 plus years. The way i see it, Francona has prevented the team from succeeding 5 out of 7 years that he's been the mangler. So instead of a hero that led the Sox to being called a dynasty, he's held them back from more glory! The mentality of some fans was illustrated after yesterdays game...they said,"We won the game, didn't we?" It was another of the 15 to 20 "In Spite Of" games that will happen this year, just as they've happened every year of Francona's tenure here.
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]

    Soooooo, a high school coach would have thought to stitch schills leg up, a highschool manager would have been able to deal with a fan base unhappy with the Garciapara trade, a hs coach would be able to deal with all of the mid season injuries and horrid defense the 04 team had, A hs coach would have been able to beat 2 100+ win teams in the post season, a hs manager would be able to take a team with characters and all new pieces who were down after a big Post season loss and make them one solid confident team within a week of ST as well as gain their respect.

    Yes your so right. even you would be able to do all of these things. You have convinced me with this post. I now hate Francona for no reason whatsoever...... oh wait sorry i meant Francoma. My bad. Francona is 0-15 and the team is 13-0 to spite him being bad.

    I guess I miss the players sarcasm when they say they love the guy, I guess I miss the other managers sarcasm when they sing his praise, I guess I miss the other players sarcasm when they say they would like him to manage them, I guess I didnt realize the US National team was giving him a pitty job when they made him manager.

    You have opened my eyes. Thank You
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...

    To Hfxsoxnut: They not only beat a 105-win Cardinals team, but they never once trailed in 4 games. That '04 team was possessed!

    Yes, Tito inherited a very strong team. But to not give him credit for the team's accomplishments is foolish. The Tito bashers only wish to see his downside.
    Tito proponents may in fact give him too much credit.
    He will go down in Boston history as one of the most successful managers ever. And the debate over his impact will last just as long.

    I think it's important to acknowledge both his assets and his liabilities. This back-and-forth, pro & con thing really doesn't get into the meat of his overall effect.I don't think either side sees it true.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...

    Posts: 14208
    First: 10/16/2007
    Last: 5/3/2011
    To Hfxsoxnut: They not only beat a 105-win Cardinals team, but they never once trailed in 4 games. That '04 team was possessed!

    Yes, Tito inherited a very strong team. But to not give him credit for the team's accomplishments is foolish. The Tito bashers only wish to see his downside.
    Tito proponents may in fact give him too much credit.
    He will go down in Boston history as one of the most successful managers ever. And the debate over his impact will last just as long.

    I think it's important to acknowledge both his assets and his liabilities. This back-and-forth, pro & con thing really doesn't get into the meat of his overall effect.I don't think either side sees it true.


    Here, here!!!! 


    That is all I'm trying to do is end - or make a sensible dent in - the mindless negativity toward Tito.

    I have never said he was perfect.  As a matter of fact, he does baffle me on pitching calls sometimes.  And I've never seen a manager shuffle his starting line up like he does.  Even when injuroes aren't a factor.

    But to call him all the negative names and to keep from giving him credit for the things he has helped develop is either just meanness, jealousy or some other not too nice personality trait. 

    I don't know if other sites do this, but we are alwayys ready to hang him at any mistake .... AND WE(THEY) NEVER GIVE THE GUY CREDIT!!!!  That's just not right.  It smacks of the poorest sportsmanship around.

    I'll choose him over the supposed baseball experts here. 


     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...

    I think the reason Tito's contributions get over-looked is because of how he's judged. His assets involve having his player's backs. This flies under the radar in a city like Boston. Fans don't understand his in-game managing, which is often predicated to a broader scope.

    They don't compare him to his contemporaries, who make constant in-game miscalculations. The constant bashers become the very critics they themselves could never endure. Tek was hammered relentlessly a couple of years back until the fans realized his importance with this pitching staff. It took a frame of reference to open people's eyes.

    I have my own beefs with Tito, but I realize is just part of his package. When posters wish only to see the negatives, it echoes their own inability to see their own flaws.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...

    In Response to Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times... :

    Do you truly believe he "led" the 2004 team to a championship??

    Yes.  Sorry you can't see it.  Did he make all the calls the way I would?  Not hardly.  But he's respected in the game, unlike you say.  He's respected in the club house.  He handled flambouyant personalities like Manny until Manny stepped on his own personal Claymore.

    Oh, BTW, I'm not fool hardy enough to think I could do better.  I have neither the depth of understanding for the pro game itself nor the insight needed to masterfully handle 25-40 testosterone driven guys that are at the top of the game.

     


    He was a putrid manager in Philly and because of Schilling, he got the job here.
     
    The talent level in Philly was second or third tier.  Jim Fregosi got one good season out of them ... and 5 losing seasons.  Tito had similar production with Fregosi.  Larry Bowa took over and they skyrocketed ... to just above .500.  BIG F R I G G I N' WHOOP!!!!   Your analysis is more than suspect. 

    And because of Schilling's arrival, which you brush off like flies on road kill,... I think we have a World Championship and a story for the ages with the bloody sock.

        So, no credit to Tito again. 

       The mound warrior wanted him, BUT YOU, OH, GREAT BASEBALL MIND, have pathological negativity toward him.

      Let's see, which person's outlook will I depend on?

      Nooooo ... NOT you.  I'll take Curt's outlook.  I think it has about three and a haldf thousand times more validity than your outlook.

      Curt comes, Tito comes, WE WIN!!!   Gee ....


       


    Any high school coach could have won with the 2004 team.

      No wonder we haven't won.  We've been hiring pro coaches and managers.  Next time through, I'll nominate my HS coach.  Your animosity is showing under your skirt .... and it is not pretty.  Nor is it correct.


    The fact that the Sox had to overcome his managerial deficiencies to win speaks for itself.
     
      If it speaks for itself, why the heck do you have to keep pounding away at it all the time?


    He never was, is not now and never will be a competent baseball manager.


       He sure a heck fooled Mr. Henry et al.  I wonder why these guys, especially Mr. Henry, who has made mulitple hundreds of millions of dollars by making informed decisions, can't see what you can?



    The Sox should have been a dynasty in the last seven plus years.

    Ummm ... you DO realize there is this team in NYC.  Been around for a long time.  Then there is this upstart team in Tampa.  And OVER THERE in the NL, there are some fairly good teams in St. Louis and Philly... and I left out all the other good AL teams. 

    They DID win two crowns. 

       And they have had the best 7 seasons in Red Sox history ...

      But that obviously isn't enough.

    Instead fans are grateful that the Sox have been able to overcome a managerial idiot and won 2 titles.
     
      Yes. 

      I remember '67 well ... darned Bob Gibson.  And Tito, of course, is the reason we lost.
      I remember '75.  Big Red Machine.  And Tito, of course, is the reason we lost.
      I remember '86 .... and OF COURSE Tito is the reason we lost ...

      Hey, DID YOU NOTICE SOMTHING????

          Let's see ...86 minus 75 = 11 seasons between shots at the crown ... 

           and ...

            75 minus 67 = 8 seasons between shots at the crown ...


       And in the 7 seasons with Tito ... only out of the playoffs twice?

        And two World Crowns??????


           Yep.  He stinks.



     

    They should have been in 4 and maybe 5 World Series in the last 7 plus years.
     
         Should.  I agree.  But I think they should win every year.  NO matter who's in charge.

        But that isn't honestly realistic.




    The way i see it, Francona has prevented the team from succeeding 5 out of 7 years that he's been the mangler.
     
         ...prevented?  That involves intent.  You're saying Tito purpousely went out of his way to keep his team from winning?  I don't think so ... You don't give him credit for managing poorly, never mind masterminding purposeful failure. 


    So instead of a hero that led the Sox to being called a dynasty, he's held them back from more glory!




    The mentality of some fans was illustrated after yesterdays game...they said,"We won the game, didn't we?" It was another of the 15 to 20 "In Spite Of" games that will happen this year, just as they've happened every year of Francona's tenure here.

    It must really be tough being you.  You're really, really unhappy with 2 crowns and really, really angry that we don't have more.  Wow.  Ouch......

    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...

    Its just laughable what some say about Francona. I surely do not agree with him on all his moves, but I know I couldnt do everything he does in front of the camera and behind the scenes.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxdawg08. Show soxdawg08's posts

    Re: Tito "inherited a championship team".... Gee, No wonder they played so poorly at times...

    Ask Sciocsa and the Angels how "bad" a manager Tito is. 

     
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