Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

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    In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight : Exactly, what's so great about Papi's 15 homers, Gonzo's 53 ribbies or Ellsbury's 23 stolen bases? That's what they're supposed to do!
    Posted by LloydDobler[/QUOTE]
    I think the difference is that hitters are doing what they get paid to do, and they only have to be successful 3 out of 10 times. Managers need to be successful at a much higher rate. Francona is not successfull at a much higher rate. During the 4 game losing streak, 3 of those losses could have been attributed to his nonsensical managing. I refuse to accept that as doing a good job. If you cam accept those kind of results from your manager, that's fine for you.......not for me !
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight : I think the difference is that hitters are doing what they get paid to do, and they only have to be successful 3 out of 10 times. Managers need to be successful at a much higher rate. Francona is not successfull at a much higher rate. During the 4 game losing streak, 3 of those losses could have been attributed to his nonsensical managing. I refuse to accept that as doing a good job. If you cam accept those kind of results from your manager, that's fine for you.......not for me !
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]






    Information for you:
    Tito's success rate stands at .574  (57.4%)  this year.  Third best in the majors.
    Does that not qualify for being successful at a much higher rate than 30%.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight : I think the difference is that hitters are doing what they get paid to do, and they only have to be successful 3 out of 10 times. Managers need to be successful at a much higher rate. Francona is not successfull at a much higher rate. During the 4 game losing streak, 3 of those losses could have been attributed to his nonsensical managing. I refuse to accept that as doing a good job. If you cam accept those kind of results from your manager, that's fine for you.......not for me !
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]

    If you ever even offered an inkling of support to your assertions like this, I would take you seriously.
     
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    [QUOTE]Why do Francona's minions feel the need to congratulate him for simply doing what he's paid to do?????  I believe they are as surprised as I am that he actually managed a game like any high school coach would. He did his job last night, so they need to bring it to our attention, since it doesn't happen that often! He gets criticized for not doing what he's well paid to do. It's a simple concept. Don't forget "THE FRANCONA FACTOR" The opposition counts on it !!! Your philosophy is so lame and sophmoric.  In your world, you can berate a person for not being perfect, but can't give one an attaboy for good to superior performance.  Do you get bothered when fans cheer at a game for a hit?  Gee the player is just doing what he's paid to do.  Why cheer.  Parks would be pretty quiet in your world.  I guess you feel I wasted my time in 2004, driving 350 miles to watch a bunch of guys on duck boats getting kudos from a million fans for just doing what they were paid to do.
    Posted by piersall[/QUOTE]

    Game, set, match!
     
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    [QUOTE]                          Jim .....We always gave credit to your guy TF in managing those 7-1, 8-5, 11-6 snoozers that he's been noted for during the last 8 yrs. It's the close ones he has a problem with. He found a new toy last night, Aceves. Watch him burn through this guy before the All-Star break trying to save Bard,and Paps and others in that precious BP. When's the last time you saw TF go to the BP after 1.2 innings to relieve his starter? With Aceves he has that option now. This Aceves guy's arm will be little more than limp linguini after August or early Sept. With Wake in the rotation Aceves is the new Sanitation Engineer in the BP.                You gave TF credit for managing an 8-5 game to an 11-6 final. How did you figure that? The same guys we had in the game at 8-5 were around at 11-6.                Jim you and Lloyd keep drinking the Kool-Aid and dancing around the room with that big red feathered Boa convincing yourselves that TF is as good as it gets. In the mean time we're still out here ever vigilant and holding him to a much higher standard than mediocrity.
    Posted by eggplants[/QUOTE]

    What the hell are you talking about?  Does Tito make mistakes?  Yes...as do we all.  My issue is that whether a particular move is a mistake or not can only be judged in hindsight.  Tito has a ton of information you don't have and makes decisions accordingly.  For you or anyone else to sit around and think you know more is laughable.  Boy, we are lucky you are holding him to a higher standard.  You are doing no such thing.  You are sitting at your desk just having fun and that is all.  Anything else you think is going on is going on in your mind.  Feather boa?  Please get some new material as that is lame.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from pschuller. Show pschuller's posts

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    [QUOTE]He came to get Wake at the perfect moment and tabbed the right guy.  He knew Tek could do the job with Wake and made the right call with Wake and Aceves in combination.  He has moved CC up in the lineup slowly allowing him to really settle in.  He flipped Scutaro and JD Drew giving the bottom of the order some punch.  Masterful job by Tito.
    Posted by jimdavis[/QUOTE]

    You want to know why Tito detractors (other than BOSOX1941, who clearly likes to bait) don't come around much? Because on this board, it always seems like it has to be black or white. Not much interest in rational debate. For example, if I were to post what I have actually observed this year, which is that Tito has done a better, though hardly exemplary, job this year than previous ones, I would probably be labeled as some sort of inconsistent poster, who goes back and forth with his opinions. Heck, even my wife commented the other day that it seemed Tito was doing a lot better this year. Still, there are lots of reasons, most already posted ad nauseum on this board, why I don't think he is that good a manager, but I just don't think it's worth the time to keep blowing that horn, given that so few of Tito's supporters really want to listen to an opposing point of view.
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight : You want to know why Tito detractors (other than BOSOX1941, who clearly likes to bait) don't come around much? Because on this board, it always seems like it has to be black or white. Not much interest in rational debate. For example, if I were to post what I have actually observed this year, which is that Tito has done a better , though hardly exemplary, job this year than previous ones, I would probably be labeled as some sort of inconsistent poster, who goes back and forth with his opinions. Heck, even my wife commented the other day that it seemed Tito was doing a lot better this year. Still, there are lots of reasons, most already posted ad nauseum on this board, why I don't think he is that good a manager, but I just don't think it's worth the time to keep blowing that horn, given that so few of Tito's supporters really want to listen to an opposing point of view.
    Posted by pschuller[/QUOTE]

    This is a reasonable post and I love to rationally discuss the issue.  The noise does get in the way.  Thanks for the excellent post.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from piersall. Show piersall's posts

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight : This is a reasonable post and I love to rationally discuss the issue.  The noise does get in the way.  Thanks for the excellent post.
    Posted by jimdavis[/QUOTE]





    I agree.  I'm open to listen to logic which suggests Tito is a poor manager, if the opposition would consider listening to the counter arguement without the "coma" type stuff.  I don't agree with every tactic Tito pulls, and some of my philosphies would include tactics he never would consider, but I appreciate his results and history as a Sox manager, and I've witnessed some things he's done that are deserving of recognition.  I think, going into this debate, we have to be acutely cognizant of the fact that Tito is privvy to much more information than you and I.    Tito has vision, and doesn't sacrifice short term successes for long term failures.  There are many parameters to managing, and it's tough to be perfect at all of them/definitely a tradeoff.  I respect Tito alot, even if I do like the sacrifice squeeze, and he's never heard of one.
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight : I think the difference is that hitters are doing what they get paid to do, and they only have to be successful 3 out of 10 times. Managers need to be successful at a much higher rate. Francona is not successfull at a much higher rate. During the 4 game losing streak, 3 of those losses could have been attributed to his nonsensical managing. I refuse to accept that as doing a good job. If you cam accept those kind of results from your manager, that's fine for you.......not for me !
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]

    I can accept being in first place, thank you.

     
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    Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight

    " If you can accept those kind of results from your manager, that's fine for you.......not for me !"

    Yep, I'll accept them and the World Series rings also. Simple as that. 

    Enjoy your Jimy Williams memorabilia.

     
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    [QUOTE]He came to get Wake at the perfect moment and tabbed the right guy.  He knew Tek could do the job with Wake and made the right call with Wake and Aceves in combination.  He has moved CC up in the lineup slowly allowing him to really settle in.  He flipped Scutaro and JD Drew giving the bottom of the order some punch.  Masterful job by Tito.
    Posted by jimdavis[/QUOTE]
    he's batting Scutaro 2nd Lowrie 6th & Crawford 7th  I don't get please respond
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight : he's batting Scutaro 2nd Lowrie 6th & Crawford 7th  I don't get please respond
    Posted by tc25[/QUOTE]

    I don't have all the info Tito has.  My guess is that Scutaro was tearing up at AAA during the rehab and maybe he has good numbers against CC.  Crawford has been going better but no need to move him to the 2 spot and add pressure against a really tough lefty.  CC has struggled at times vs. lefties.  That leaves Lowrie for the 6 hole as a switch hitter between Papi and Crawford.  Makes sense to me.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight

    Tito's got such a poor record at handling this team ...

      like being 8-0 in the World Series.

        Incredibly inept.





      After being a Sox fan since '62, I wish at least one other manager had been that inept.
     
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    Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight

    Bosox41,

     

    It is sad that your only thoughts about this season are how bad the manager is doing. I really feel sorry for you because there is no room in your heart for the joy that this team is providing. I suggest that you seek other forms of entertainment before the play of this team gives you a stroke. In the first place it is not your place to worry about how the manager uses his team. Actually only his bosses have that right as they pay his salary. You must have grown up in the nineties, the entitled generation. All you ever do is complain and never provide a viable solution to the problems at hand. Many on this forum have tried to educate you but you are either too stubborn or too dumb. Maybe it is time to put away the computer and just take a walk outside along a river somewhere and every time those bad thoughts enter your head just jump in the water and cool off. It may take time but you will eventually become a better person with rational thoughts.

     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight : he's batting Scutaro 2nd Lowrie 6th & Crawford 7th  I don't get please respond
    Posted by tc25[/QUOTE]Scutaro has good splits against Sabathia. ( 36 PAs with a .345 BA and .472 OBP)

    Lowrie hits LH well and Crawford not so much.
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight : I agree.  I'm open to listen to logic which suggests Tito is a poor manager, if the opposition would consider listening to the counter arguement without the "coma" type stuff.  I don't agree with every tactic Tito pulls, and some of my philosphies would include tactics he never would consider, but I appreciate his results and history as a Sox manager, and I've witnessed some things he's done that are deserving of recognition.  I think, going into this debate, we have to be acutely cognizant of the fact that Tito is privvy to much more information than you and I.    Tito has vision, and doesn't sacrifice short term successes for long term failures.  There are many parameters to managing, and it's tough to be perfect at all of them/definitely a tradeoff.  I respect Tito alot, even if I do like the sacrifice squeeze, and he's never heard of one.
    Posted by piersall[/QUOTE]

    OK, good, let's give it a shot. And I include Mr. Davis in the conversation, since he expressed interest as well.

    For starters, would you be willing to listen to anecdotal evidence that has nothing to do with his performance? I agree that Tito has access to much more information than do I, but I do not find him to be a visionary at all. In fact, my biggest problem with him is that he does not seem to think very far in ahead (except for maybe how much he wants to protect his BP, as so many supporters keep citing). Good managers, like good chess players, are always thinking ahead. And here is the anecdotal evidence that I would ask you to consider. I have a friend who knows him and has interacted with him on a number of occasions (outside baseball), and he says exactly the same thing about Tito as I just did. My observation has been that Tito does not do much tactical maneuvering (bunting, hit and run, etc.), precisely because he is not thinking ahead enough. Incidentally, as I mentioned in my earlier post, I think he has MUCH better this year on that score, so who knows, maybe he is learning.

    Additionally, though he appears to run a smooth, mostly conflict free clubhouse, I am not convinced that he demands enough of his players, who are, after all, better paid than you and I ever dreamed of. I think he is kind of soft actually, on that count, and it certainly seemed to me he had not demanded enough of them in Spring Training, hence the awful start. I have played for great coaches and lousy coaches, and the former universally demanded more of his players than the latter. 

    I don't think he has a good "feel" for when to take starters or relievers out, but admittedly that is mostly art not science and not all managers have that talent. Again, I find that he has seemed better at it this year. And perhaps it is asking too much, but I wish he would not go by the standard book all the time of bringing in the closer for the 9th, even though the guy who just pitched a perfect 8th is unhittable and has not been overused in the last week. (Again, there don't seem to be many such situations, but I wish he would have the guts to do it occasionally.)

    I have read many responses on this subject demanding that detractors name better managers who would be available. I think that is a cop out. If you think you could get a better manager/CEO/whatever, you would simply not renew the contract and institute a search for someone better. You don't have to know who that is when you let the first guy go. I think the Sox could do better, but I also think that Tito is doing sufficiently better himself this year that he deserves to prove that he has evolved and is now a good manager. With the squad he has, if he is a good manager, he ought to get to the WS. The proof of the pudding, especially in sports, is in the eating.
     
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    Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight

    To follow up Crawford has had 62 PAs with a .279 BA and a .290 OBP. So you have Scutaro who historically gets on versus Sabathia 47% of the time or Crawford who gets on 29% of the time in front of A-Gon, Youk and Ortiz. Not a tough choice.

    Lowrie has only had 9 PAs versus Sabathia will little luck (2-9 no walks). So I assume he is putting him at 6 because he hits most LH well but could not pass on the splits Scut had against Sabathia for the 2 spot tonight.

    The story is almost always in the numbers...
     
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    [QUOTE]Additionally, though he appears to run a smooth, mostly conflict free clubhouse, I am not convinced that he demands enough of his players, who are, after all, better paid than you and I ever dreamed of. I think he is kind of soft actually, on that count, and it certainly seemed to me he had not demanded enough of them in Spring Training, hence the awful start. I have played for great coaches and lousy coaches, and the former universally demanded more of his players than the latter.
    Posted by pschuller[/QUOTE]

    Hey good post, pschuller, some thoughtful criticism, I'm impressed.

    On this point, I think one of Tito's greatest assets is the way he handles the players and keeps them motivated.  I think the players generally like him, respect him and want to play hard for him, and I think it shows on the field most nights.

    However it's a fine line between being a players' manager and being too lenient sometimes, and maybe that part is difficult for him.  It must be kind of a tricky balance to strike.

    One thing that was interesting was when Papelbon recently disclosed how Francona has chewed him out vigorously a few times for not knowing when to keep his trap shut.  I wish I had the quote but Paps seemed to imply there was a side to the manager that people didn't really know.  I liked to hear that.        
     
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    Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight

    And last night is an example of why Aceves needed to go back to the pen, and Wakefield stay in the rotation, IMO.
     
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    The hit and run and bunting is an interesting debate. fans tend to love it when it works, blow a fuse when it doesn't.

    The RS are a very stat based organization from the managing partner on down. The SABR guys (right or wrong) are very down on bunting except in late and close situations because they say over time the increase in the percentage of scoring a single run is more than offset by the number of times you can score multiple runs by not trading away the out.

    The way Francona manages in this regard is a direct reflection of the organizational philosophy and we will see it in the next manager whenever Francona goes. Any major change in terms of holding outs closely, working the count and playing for big innings rather than one run at a time will wait until Henry and Epstein aren't in the picture IMHO.

    They hired him to manage this way and the issue would be with the RS and not just the field manager IMO.

    As far as managing pitchers, I think Francona is as good as his contemporaries at this. When he had a deep bullpen in 2009 he used it well. In 2004 he managed around only being 3 deep in the bullpen and did much the same in 2007.

    He tends to restrict the guy in 8th inning Bard because he uses him so often.  Last year bard appeared in 73 games (73.1 IP) and this year he has already appeared in 30 games (31.1 IP). He is the best bridge to the next guy (papelbon) when the game is late and close and his best pitcher with inherited runners. It IMO is disciplined to avoid the temptation to stay with that hot hand. It actually is in contradiction to the notion that Tito doesn't have a longer view of things. As does the fact that he will sit position starters more often than fans would like to keep them fresh over 162 plus hopefully a post season run.
     
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    In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight : OK, good, let's give it a shot. And I include Mr. Davis in the conversation, since he expressed interest as well. For starters, would you be willing to listen to anecdotal evidence that has nothing to do with his performance? I agree that Tito has access to much more information than do I, but I do not find him to be a visionary at all. In fact, my biggest problem with him is that he does not seem to think very far in ahead (except for maybe how much he wants to protect his BP, as so many supporters keep citing). Good managers, like good chess players, are always thinking ahead. And here is the anecdotal evidence that I would ask you to consider. I have a friend who knows him and has interacted with him on a number of occasions (outside baseball), and he says exactly the same thing about Tito as I just did. My observation has been that Tito does not do much tactical maneuvering (bunting, hit and run, etc.), precisely because he is not thinking ahead enough. Incidentally, as I mentioned in my earlier post, I think he has MUCH better this year on that score, so who knows, maybe he is learning. Additionally, though he appears to run a smooth, mostly conflict free clubhouse, I am not convinced that he demands enough of his players, who are, after all, better paid than you and I ever dreamed of. I think he is kind of soft actually, on that count, and it certainly seemed to me he had not demanded enough of them in Spring Training, hence the awful start. I have played for great coaches and lousy coaches, and the former universally demanded more of his players than the latter.  I don't think he has a good "feel" for when to take starters or relievers out, but admittedly that is mostly art not science and not all managers have that talent. Again, I find that he has seemed better at it this year. And perhaps it is asking too much, but I wish he would not go by the standard book all the time of bringing in the closer for the 9th, even though the guy who just pitched a perfect 8th is unhittable and has not been overused in the last week. (Again, there don't seem to be many such situations, but I wish he would have the guts to do it occasionally.) I have read many responses on this subject demanding that detractors name better managers who would be available. I think that is a cop out. If you think you could get a better manager/CEO/whatever, you would simply not renew the contract and institute a search for someone better. You don't have to know who that is when you let the first guy go. I think the Sox could do better, but I also think that Tito is doing sufficiently better himself this year that he deserves to prove that he has evolved and is now a good manager. With the squad he has, if he is a good manager, he ought to get to the WS. The proof of the pudding, especially in sports, is in the eating.
    Posted by pschuller[/QUOTE]

    Thanks for the post.  I have no problem with any of it although I don't agree.  Many here say he looks TOO MUCH AHEAD and does not worry about today enough.  I find I am fighting both battles at the same time.  I need more proof that Tito didn't have the team ready for the the season rather than just saying the pitching was not there in the beginning and they figured it out.  I can't argue with you about hit and run because I don't know which opportunities you would have wanted that he did not.  I have seen the Sox stay out of DPs and go first to third.  Ellsbury has the green light and the caught stealings are telling.  Fearless baserunning is what the speedsters need and Tito gives them that freedom.

    Maybe your friend knows more than I do about Tito.  I have never met him.  The players seem to love the guy and problems are kept in house.  He has the support of management.  I have never said he is a visionary, just a solid player's manager who gets the players to buy into the system and produce undeniable results. Visionaries are not needed in Boston.  Keep the bullpen fresh, give guys days off when they need it, protect them from the media and let them thrive.  Tito does all of that.

    People love to recall his tenure in Philly.  I submit that those teams were horrible.  Schilling and a young Abreu is all they had.  A friend of mine from Philly told me in 2004 that Tito would be a "disaster" for the Sox.  Whether you like him or not, you can not characterize anything going on in Boston since 2004 as a disaster.
     
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    Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight





    Two good posts in the debate.  Patience has to be mentioned, but some see this as more of a liability (ie. too easy on his players) than asset. Obviously Manny is the ultimate example. How many managers could have withstood that garbage without blowing? (and what are the consequenses of losing it?)  I always go back to Mark Bellhorn in 2004.  He was on my "sit him" list, and driving me crazy with his record setting K streak.  Tito stayed with him, and he got the critical homer in the playoffs against the Yankees which was truly one of the keys to the  championship.  I also think Tito HAD to have something to do with getting rid of Nomar.  TO HIS CREDIT.  He didn't air any dirty laundry in the press, but I don't think he wanted to deal with a sulky quitter. (that's not being too easy on players)  We have short memories. Papi would have been benched or traded by many at a point in time last year.  Tito had true confidence that he'd bust out. (don't forget, many many couldn't see it that way). Papi came thru last year, and need I say anything about this year?  Titos credit.  I guess these are arguements against him not being a visionary.  I do agree that his bullpen management is very curious at times (although not last night)  The prior night when Bard was absolutely lights out and threw very few pitches in the 8th was a primary example.  I want him back in the 9th, especially considering Paps previous outing.  BUT, I've gotta believe that Tito has a reason for doing what he does. (goes back to he knows stuff we don't)

    I used to be a "tough manager" fan.  Dick Williams delivered success as a tough manager, and they fired him because the players were rebelling.  How well did Lou Pinella do?  How's Ozzie Guillan stacking up.  Real tacticians, but unhappy players.  It's a different culture than my earlier years of following it, so I've come around (slowly) to some of the modern philosophies (reluctantly)

    I've got my mind made up that Tito is remiss on teaching the bunt, and using it to manufacture runs.  Squeezes aren't in his portfolio.  I don't like it, but it's not something that would cause me to define him as a lousy manager.  I think he's a good manager.  (BTW, so do the baseball "experts" who are polled for Manager of the Year Award.
     
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    Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight

    In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight:
    [QUOTE]Two good posts in the debate.  Patience has to be mentioned, but some see this as more of a liability (ie. too easy on his players) than asset. Obviously Manny is the ultimate example. How many managers could have withstood that garbage without blowing? (and what are the consequenses of losing it?)  I always go back to Mark Bellhorn in 2004.  He was on my "sit him" list, and driving me crazy with his record setting K streak.  Tito stayed with him, and he got the critical homer in the playoffs against the Yankees which was truly one of the keys to the  championship.  I also think Tito HAD to have something to do with getting rid of Nomar.  TO HIS CREDIT.  He didn't air any dirty laundry in the press, but I don't think he wanted to deal with a sulky quitter. (that's not being too easy on players)  We have short memories. Papi would have been benched or traded by many at a point in time last year.  Tito had true confidence that he'd bust out. (don't forget, many many couldn't see it that way). Papi came thru last year, and need I say anything about this year?  Titos credit.  I guess these are arguements against him not being a visionary.  I do agree that his bullpen management is very curious at times (although not last night)  The prior night when Bard was absolutely lights out and threw very few pitches in the 8th was a primary example.  I want him back in the 9th, especially considering Paps previous outing.  BUT, I've gotta believe that Tito has a reason for doing what he does. (goes back to he knows stuff we don't) I used to be a "tough manager" fan.  Dick Williams delivered success as a tough manager, and they fired him because the players were rebelling.  How well did Lou Pinella do?  How's Ozzie Guillan stacking up.  Real tacticians, but unhappy players.  It's a different culture than my earlier years of following it, so I've come around (slowly) to some of the modern philosophies (reluctantly) I've got my mind made up that Tito is remiss on teaching the bunt, and using it to manufacture runs.  Squeezes aren't in his portfolio.  I don't like it, but it's not something that would cause me to define him as a lousy manager.  I think he's a good manager.  (BTW, so do the baseball "experts" who are polled for Manager of the Year Award.
    Posted by piersall[/QUOTE]

    Nice post. I think the Bard thing is not burning him out.  He was used in 73 games in 2010 and is on the way there again.  That is alot of warming up.  To limit the innings is important and probably coming from ownership...especially if he is the closer of the future.
     
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    Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight

    In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight : Nice post. I think the Bard thing is not burning him out.  He was used in 73 games in 2010 and is on the way there again.  That is alot of warming up.  To limit the innings is important and probably coming from ownership...especially if he is the closer of the future.
    Posted by jimdavis[/QUOTE]

    Yeah, thanks for both your posts. I hear your points and don't even necessarily disagree. So much of what people perceive, which is based on a tremendous different range of personal experience, shapes their views of whether someone is good at his or her job, so it does not surprise me that reasonable men would disagree about Tito's performance as well.
    On the Bard thing, that is a particular quirk of mine--If I were managing, I would name a closer but not always go to him, being willing to keep my set up man in for two innings if he is lights out, then giving him more rest if necessary and letting the "closer" pitch two innings the next night if need be.
    As to the visionary thing, it was more a response to something piersall had written, but even so I disagree with you that we don't need more visionaries in Boston--that's all we need, though realistically speaking, there are not enough to go around, so we take 'em where we can. Admittedly, trying to find a true visionary in the world of baseball is a tall order.
     
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    Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight

    In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight:
    [QUOTE]Two good posts in the debate.  Patience has to be mentioned, but some see this as more of a liability (ie. too easy on his players) than asset. Obviously Manny is the ultimate example. How many managers could have withstood that garbage without blowing? (and what are the consequenses of losing it?)  I always go back to Mark Bellhorn in 2004.  He was on my "sit him" list, and driving me crazy with his record setting K streak.  Tito stayed with him, and he got the critical homer in the playoffs against the Yankees which was truly one of the keys to the  championship.  I also think Tito HAD to have something to do with getting rid of Nomar.  TO HIS CREDIT.  He didn't air any dirty laundry in the press, but I don't think he wanted to deal with a sulky quitter. (that's not being too easy on players)  We have short memories. Papi would have been benched or traded by many at a point in time last year.  Tito had true confidence that he'd bust out. (don't forget, many many couldn't see it that way). Papi came thru last year, and need I say anything about this year?  Titos credit.  I guess these are arguements against him not being a visionary.  I do agree that his bullpen management is very curious at times (although not last night)  The prior night when Bard was absolutely lights out and threw very few pitches in the 8th was a primary example.  I want him back in the 9th, especially considering Paps previous outing.  BUT, I've gotta believe that Tito has a reason for doing what he does. (goes back to he knows stuff we don't) I used to be a "tough manager" fan.  Dick Williams delivered success as a tough manager, and they fired him because the players were rebelling.  How well did Lou Pinella do?  How's Ozzie Guillan stacking up.  Real tacticians, but unhappy players.  It's a different culture than my earlier years of following it, so I've come around (slowly) to some of the modern philosophies (reluctantly) I've got my mind made up that Tito is remiss on teaching the bunt, and using it to manufacture runs.  Squeezes aren't in his portfolio.  I don't like it, but it's not something that would cause me to define him as a lousy manager.  I think he's a good manager.  (BTW, so do the baseball "experts" who are polled for Manager of the Year Award.
    Posted by piersall[/QUOTE]Bellhorn was another example of numbers coming into play. In 2004 Mark Bellhorn struck out a career high 177 times but it was not the number that the RS (Tito) looked at.

    He was getting on base 37.7% of the time in front of Ortiz and Ramirez. he also hit for extra bases well that year putting up a .817 OPS. Those numbers were close to Pedroia's rookie year. So while the K's drove fans crazy Francona stuck with him because of the high OBP and good SLG. The RS got 93 R and 82 RBI from Bellhorn in 2004. Also it is worth mentioning he did not have a lot of options with Pokey Reese and Nomar Garciaparra hurt much of that season.

    In 2005 he gave Bellhorn lots of opportunity to get out of a season long slump and when he didn't and the GM got a suitable replacement Bellhorn was done.

    As far as Nomar went, IMO Nomar was traded because he could not play every day and Reese had an oblique injury. While fans have since remembered it as a gutsy move, Nomar wasn't able to play every day, was in a walk year, the RS had determined from their discussions with Arn Tellum and the other expiring contracts they had that a deal was not going to be reached. It wasn't as gutsy as people think IMO, it was survival and the RS good fortune that the Cubs are...well, their the Cubs and they got into a 4 team deal with the RS, Twins and Expos.

    The only guy I think Tito ever ran out of town was Jay Payton.
     

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