Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from pschuller. Show pschuller's posts

    Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight

    In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight:
    One thing that was interesting was when Papelbon recently disclosed how Francona has chewed him out vigorously a few times for not knowing when to keep his trap shut.  I wish I had the quote but Paps seemed to imply there was a side to the manager that people didn't really know.  I liked to hear that.        
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut


    Thanks for sharing that! Indeed, that is an interesting piece of information and makes me respect Tito more, as I have always thought Pap ran his mouth (including the behaviors that "speak" for him) too much.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from pschuller. Show pschuller's posts

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    In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight:
    The hit and run and bunting is an interesting debate. fans tend to love it when it works, blow a fuse when it doesn't. The RS are a very stat based organization from the managing partner on down. The SABR guys (right or wrong) are very down on bunting except in late and close situations because they say over time the increase in the percentage of scoring a single run is more than offset by the number of times you can score multiple runs by not trading away the out. The way Francona manages in this regard is a direct reflection of the organizational philosophy and we will see it in the next manager whenever Francona goes. Any major change in terms of holding outs closely, working the count and playing for big innings rather than one run at a time will wait until Henry and Epstein aren't in the picture IMHO. They hired him to manage this way and the issue would be with the RS and not just the field manager IMO. As far as managing pitchers, I think Francona is as good as his contemporaries at this. When he had a deep bullpen in 2009 he used it well. In 2004 he managed around only being 3 deep in the bullpen and did much the same in 2007. He tends to restrict the guy in 8th inning Bard because he uses him so often.  Last year bard appeared in 73 games (73.1 IP) and this year he has already appeared in 30 games (31.1 IP). He is the best bridge to the next guy (papelbon) when the game is late and close and his best pitcher with inherited runners. It IMO is disciplined to avoid the temptation to stay with that hot hand. It actually is in contradiction to the notion that Tito doesn't have a longer view of things. As does the fact that he will sit position starters more often than fans would like to keep them fresh over 162 plus hopefully a post season run.
    Posted by fivekatz


    Excellent points, thanks.
     
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    Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight

    In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight:
    In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight : Yeah, thanks for both your posts. I hear your points and don't even necessarily disagree. So much of what people perceive, which is based on a tremendous different range of personal experience, shapes their views of whether someone is good at his or her job, so it does not surprise me that reasonable men would disagree about Tito's performance as well. On the Bard thing, that is a particular quirk of mine--If I were managing, I would name a closer but not always go to him, being willing to keep my set up man in for two innings if he is lights out, then giving him more rest if necessary and letting the "closer" pitch two innings the next night if need be. As to the visionary thing, it was more a response to something piersall had written, but even so I disagree with you that we don't need more visionaries in Boston--that's all we need, though realistically speaking, there are not enough to go around, so we take 'em where we can. Admittedly, trying to find a true visionary in the world of baseball is a tall order.
    Posted by pschuller
    It is a trade off. By using Bard that way you suggest has greater impact on the game in hand but over fewer games. By using him the way Francona has he has him available to impact more games over the 162. There is a reason why so many in baseball have gravitated to the current BP metaphor, it is certainly not unique to Francona.

    And for all some say they'd do it differently, when it is their time and dime they often don't. Nolan Ryan went on in great detail about his disdain for the pitch count and how he would use starters longer into games. Do you know which BP in MLB logged the most relief innings last year? You got it, Nolan Ryan's Texas Rangers.

     
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from piersall. Show piersall's posts

    Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight





    Another, In Defense of Tito input:  It's mentioned frequently that he didn't have the team ready at the end of ST.  I posted a comment on that in April, and had some folks in total agreement.  I went to a game in Port St. Lucie (Mets) and the only Sox player there who's on the field tonight was Scutero.  The rest of them are in Pawtucket or Portland.  Pschuller, you may suggest that Tito was mollycoddling the guys/not subjecting them to a bus trip across the peninsula, but I watched this pattern all spring, and it repeated over and over.  He just didn't use the front liners much.  (The Mets at that game had their entire starting team in the game)  Then it occurred to me.  Having lived thru last years injury fiasco, I think Tito was really being protective.  Collisions, Batted balls off foots, Hit batters, etc.  I've never seen such devestation.  I'm sure Tito was reacting to that, and who knows; maybe he did it right.  We'll never know.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight

    Echo believes I am Softy's straight man. Softy is Carson and I'm Ed McMahon. I think echo is my straight man! -- JimDavis
    ------------------------------------------------

    I did not think of that. I would imagine that Carson and McMahon were friends, though. :)
     
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    Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight

    In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight:
    Echo believes I am Softy's straight man. Softy is Carson and I'm Ed McMahon. I think echo is my straight man! -- JimDavis ------------------------------------------------ I did not think of that. I would imagine that Carson and McMahon were friends, though. :)
    Posted by kimsaysthis


    Excellent point.  Echo is using it as some sort of put down like he is the smartest guy in the room.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight

    "Why do Francona's minions feel the need to congratulate him for simply doing what he's paid to do????? "

    Probably the same reason tito bashers, like yourself, feel the need to bash him on every move he makes..The difference is, that WE can actually talk about more than one subject, unlike yourself sounding like a skipped record stuck on the "Tito sucks, I can do better" part..If you could actually have a normal baseball discussion maybe more would take you seriously...
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight

    The Red Sox have the best record in the AL. 

    Even if the criticisms were warranted and we could go back in time to correct everything and make Tito the perfect manager, what more could they accomplish at this stage of the season - the best record in baseball??????  Which they very well could have by the end of the season.

    The objective is to win a WS.  Not to be the best team in April.  The Sox have been the best team in the AL East at the end of the April in the past and failed to make it to the post season.

    If anything, this season has proven that a team's record after the first 2 weeks of the season is meaningless.

    It's a marathon, not a 100 meter sprint.  Find a good stride.  Don't get hurt.  And position the team to be playing their best ball in September and October.

    The Sox will win the WS this year and probably next year.  They are a juggernaut.  They've swept the Yankees at YS for the second time in a row.  The Red Sox haven't been this successful in YS in 100 years.

    This is the best Red Sox team ever.  Seriously.  There may never be a Red Sox team as good as these guys.  And they aren't even hitting on all cylinders yet.

    Wait until Lackey finds his groove, they pick up a good reliever, and Pedroia gets back to the way he was hitting in April.  This is a great, great team.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight

    In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight:
    The Red Sox have the best record in the AL.  Even if the criticisms were warranted and we could go back in time to correct everything and make Tito the perfect manager, what more could they accomplish at this stage of the season - the best record in baseball??????  Which they very well could have by the end of the season. The objective is to win a WS.  Not to be the best team in April.  The Sox have been the best team in the AL East at the end of the April in the past and failed to make it to the post season. If anything, this season has proven that a team's record after the first 2 weeks of the season is meaningless. It's a marathon, not a 100 meter sprint.  Find a good stride.  Don't get hurt.  And position the team to be playing their best ball in September and October. The Sox will win the WS this year and probably next year.  They are a juggernaut.  They've swept the Yankees at YS for the second time in a row.  The Red Sox haven't been this successful in YS in 100 years. This is the best Red Sox team ever.  Seriously.  There may never be a Red Sox team as good as these guys.  And they aren't even hitting on all cylinders yet. Wait until Lackey finds his groove, they pick up a good reliever, and Pedroia gets back to the way he was hitting in April.  This is a great, great team.
    Posted by DirtyWaterLover

    2004 should have been the beginning of a dynasty. It wasn't the beginning, it has been 7 plus years of being thankful that we the Sox fans finally got to experience what it's like to have World Series champions in Boston. Fans are willing to accept that the Sox have performed to the best of their abilities and just haven't been good enough to be in more than 2 W.S. in 7 plus years. It's my contention that they should have been in 4 or 5 W.S. during Francona's tenure. I believe they've been good enough to have been that dominant. They haven't been that dominant, and I believe they have actually underachieved. It's my belief that they have underachieved because they have a less than competent manager.
    "The team's record after the first two weeks of the season is meaningless" ????
    So if they end up tied for first at the end of the regular season, starting at 3 and 9, instead of 2 and 10, wouldn't make a difference?? Good to know, thanks.
    Kinda makes Bucky Dent and Aaron Boone seem meaningless, doesn't it....
    Now it seems senseless to even begin the season in April. Why not start the season in Sept?
    When do the games start to count? When do they become meaningful??Undecided
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight

    2004 should have been the beginning of a dynasty

    That might be the dumbest thing written on here in a while.  2004 was a one-hit wonder anyone who can't see that is not fit to comment on baseball.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight

    In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight:
    In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight : 2004 should have been the beginning of a dynasty. It wasn't the beginning, it has been 7 plus years of being thankful that we the Sox fans finally got to experience what it's like to have World Series champions in Boston. Fans are willing to accept that the Sox have performed to the best of their abilities and just haven't been good enough to be in more than 2 W.S. in 7 plus years. It's my contention that they should have been in 4 or 5 W.S. during Francona's tenure. I believe they've been good enough to have been that dominant. They haven't been that dominant, and I believe they have actually underachieved. It's my belief that they have underachieved because they have a less than competent manager. "The team's record after the first two weeks of the season is meaningless" ???? So if they end up tied for first at the end of the regular season, starting at 3 and 9, instead of 2 and 10, wouldn't make a difference?? Good to know, thanks. Kinda makes Bucky Dent and Aaron Boone seem meaningless, doesn't it.... Now it seems senseless to even begin the season in April. Why not start the season in Sept? When do the games start to count? When do they become meaningful??
    Posted by BOSOX1941
    You couldn't be more wrong about it being the beginning of a dynasty. The RS lost their first three starting pitchers after that season, 2 to FA agency, 1 to injury (Schill), the closer left his career on the field in St. Louis, the corner IF were going into the twilight fast (Millar & Mueller) and the advancing evaporation of Trot Nixon's skills was in process. Dynasty's aren't as old as the RS were in as many places as they were and certainly don't lose the top 3 in 5 man rotation. The 2004 RS were a moment in time not a dynasty.

    But if that is the foundation of your thought process, that the RS were a dynasty that under performed rather than winning a third straight Wild Card being a success, no wonder you have the opinions you do of Francona. But you are wrong, the RS weren't even 1 of the 4 best teams in the AL in 2005 but managed to out perform their roster's short comings which included Clement's untimely injury and the error riddled bad hitting year of Edgar Rentaria.  
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight

    In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight:
    In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight : 2004 should have been the beginning of a dynasty. It wasn't the beginning, it has been 7 plus years of being thankful that we the Sox fans finally got to experience what it's like to have World Series champions in Boston. Fans are willing to accept that the Sox have performed to the best of their abilities and just haven't been good enough to be in more than 2 W.S. in 7 plus years. It's my contention that they should have been in 4 or 5 W.S. during Francona's tenure. I believe they've been good enough to have been that dominant. They haven't been that dominant, and I believe they have actually underachieved. It's my belief that they have underachieved because they have a less than competent manager. "The team's record after the first two weeks of the season is meaningless" ???? So if they end up tied for first at the end of the regular season, starting at 3 and 9, instead of 2 and 10, wouldn't make a difference?? Good to know, thanks. Kinda makes Bucky Dent and Aaron Boone seem meaningless, doesn't it.... Now it seems senseless to even begin the season in April. Why not start the season in Sept? When do the games start to count? When do they become meaningful??
    Posted by BOSOX1941


    The drivel gets worse and worse.  Why should it have been a dynasty?  Because you say?  The Sox did not have enough pitching in 2005.  They got their doors blown off by the Yanks late in 2006 because they were not good enough.  That's not Tito's fault.  The won it all in 2007 and went to game 7 of the ACLS in 2008. They went to the playoffs again in 2009 and Pap got beat for the sweep.  Oh, I forgot, that's Tito's fault. 2010 was a rash of injuries with many saying (accept you, of course) that it was Tito's best job as a manager. You really need to move on to some other topics.  The guy is the manager and the Sox are in first place.  Of course the games in April count.  No one said they did not.  Many just said it was not time to jump off a bridge.  Maybe you want to jump off a bridge now because the better they play, the longer he'll stay...and that sucks for you.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight

    In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight:
    In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight : You couldn't be more wrong about it being the beginning of a dynasty. The RS lost their first three starting pitchers after that season, 2 to FA agency, 1 to injury (Schill), the closer left his career on the field in St. Louis, the corner IF were going into the twilight fast (Millar & Mueller) and the advancing evaporation of Trot Nixon's skills was in process. Dynasty's aren't as old as the RS were in as many places as they were and certainly don't lose the top 3 in 5 man rotation. The 2004 RS were a moment in time not a dynasty. But if that is the foundation of your thought process, that the RS were a dynasty that under performed rather than winning a third straight Wild Card being a success, no wonder you have the opinions you do of Francona. But you are wrong, the RS weren't even 1 of the 4 best teams in the AL in 2005 but managed to out perform their roster's short comings which included Clement's untimely injury and the error riddled bad hitting year of Edgar Rentaria.  
    Posted by fivekatz


    Let 1941 sleep.  Don't wake him.  Nice post, though.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight

    In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight:
    In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight : The drivel gets worse and worse.  Why should it have been a dynasty?  Because you say?  The Sox did not have enough pitching in 2005.  They got their doors blown off by the Yanks late in 2006 because they were not good enough.  That's not Tito's fault.  The won it all in 2007 and went to game 7 of the ACLS in 2008. They went to the playoffs again in 2009 and Pap got beat for the sweep.  Oh, I forgot, that's Tito's fault. 2010 was a rash of injuries with many saying (accept you, of course) that it was Tito's best job as a manager. You really need to move on to some other topics.  The guy is the manager and the Sox are in first place.  Of course the games in April count.  No one said they did not.  Many just said it was not time to jump off a bridge.  Maybe you want to jump off a bridge now because the better they play, the longer he'll stay...and that sucks for you.
    Posted by jimdavis


    Read the post I was responding to and tell me again that no one said that the games in the first two weeks are meaningless.....Pay attention.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight

    So one yahoo says regular season games are meaningless and you hang your hat on that?  So anyone can say anything and you buy it?  Water is not wet.  Do you believe me?
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight

    Bosox1941,

    Maybe Tito's fans are just as entitled as you to give their opinion just as you are entitled to have your opinion which apparently is to critisize, unless of course you object to his fans commenting. It's called the right to free speech !!

    Hetchinspete.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight

    In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight:
    Bosox1941, Maybe Tito's fans are just as entitled as you to give their opinion just as you are entitled to have your opinion which apparently is to critisize, unless of course you object to his fans commenting. It's called the right to free speech !! Hetchinspete.
    Posted by Hetchinspete

    I don't believe I ever said they wern't entitled to their opinion, and when I post that Francona is a lousy manager, it's just my opinion. New owners committed to putting talented players on the field. They hired Francona because they couldn't get Curt Schilling without him. I'm grateful for the abundance of talent. So abundant that they have often been able to overcome Francona's shortcomings and, far too often, win "IN SPITE OF HIM".
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from piersall. Show piersall's posts

    Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight





    "when I post that Francona is a lousy manager, it's just my opinion. "


    Really.  You need not state the obvious.  Do you think any of the participants here  took it as fact?   Maybe REdsox11 (who's disappeared, and a few other scant minorities) Tito is a solid, quality manager.

    I would almost guarantee that if I wasted my time researching the history of your posts, you've no doubt had negative inputs about ownership, general mgr. and players, in the overbundance of talent scenario you cite, to overcome Tito's ineptitudes.

    You are one curious dude.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight

    In Response to Re: Tito Bashers, Talk About How he Massaged the Game Tonight:
    "when I post that Francona is a lousy manager, it's just my opinion. " Really.  You need not state the obvious.  Do you think any of the participants here  took it as fact?   Maybe REdsox11 (who's disappeared, and a few other scant minorities) Tito is a solid, quality manager. I would almost guarantee that if I wasted my time researching the history of your posts, you've no doubt had negative inputs about ownership, general mgr. and players, in the overbundance of talent scenario you cite, to overcome Tito's ineptitudes. You are one curious dude.
    Posted by piersall


    I'd be very surprised if you found negative inputs about ownership, general mgr. or players, with the exception of Gagne. I will readily admit that I was wrong about Pedroia in his rookie year. I'm glad Theo made Francona stick with him.
    I despise people who insinuate that players are at fault if they don't perform up to their expected levels. As if they intentionally perform poorly or have a choice as to how they perform on a given day. When a player is performing poorly, it's the manager's job to recognize it and take appropriate steps to rectify the situation. Having said that, we all realize that for a manager to recognize the poor play of a player, he must know what is considered poor play and what is considered acceptable performance by a player. I don't think Francona knows the difference. He continually leaves pitchers in that have given up 6-7-8-9 runs early in a game and removes pitchers that have retired the last 16 batters in a row and, struck out the last 3 ? Oh, I forgot he threw 83 pitches and according to the stats pitch number 84 would have rendered the pitcher unusable for the Sept 8th game, next year Frown.
     
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