Tito/Bobby comparison

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Tito/Bobby comparison

    Bobby Valentine? 

    #1 Cares about his players - Tito also          
    #2 Knows baseball as well as anyone - Tito? not as much
    #3 Isn't afraid to speak his mind - Tito? only to an extent    
    #4 Isn't afraid to discipline a player - Tito? not if it makes waves  
    #5 Has an anger isssue - Tito? much more in control
    #6 may have trouble handling pressure in the big market - Tito did very well
    #7 Bobby will make sure players are in shape to play - Tito lost touch here
    #8 Bobby may overstep his ground with management - Tito not so much
    #9 Bobby has the sense of humor needed to keep players loose - As did Tito
    #10 Bobby loves to attack bad calls to a fault - Tito, knew when to back off
    #11 Can Bobby succeed managing a winning team as Tito did after leaving the Phils?  I say yes

    Bobby in my opinion brings a new energy that Tito lost after 8 season.  Bobby can also fix the issues on this team without losing the respect Tito built with his players.  If Bobby and our FO can co-exist this could be a very good short term move.  There is a lot of talent on this team, but still huge decisions to be made before we get back to the PS.  So lets get going with players like Tek, Wake and David now that we have a new leader.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Tito/Bobby comparison

    In Response to Tito/Bobby comparison:
    Bobby Valentine?  #1 Cares about his players - Tito also           #2 Knows baseball as well as anyone - Tito? not as much #3 Isn't afraid to speak his mind - Tito? only to an extent     #4 Isn't afraid to discipline a player - Tito? not if it makes waves   #5 Has an anger isssue -  Tito? much more in control #6 may have trouble handling pressure in the big market - Tito did very well #7 Bobby will make sure players are in shape to play - Tito lost touch here #8 Bobby may overstep his ground with management - Tito not so much #9 Bobby has the sense of humor needed to keep players loose - As did Tito #10 Bobby loves to attack bad calls to a fault - Tito, knew when to back off #11 Can Bobby succeed managing a winning team as Tito did after leaving the Phils?  I say yes Bobby in my opinion brings a new energy that Tito lost after 8 season.  Bobby can also fix the issues on this team without losing the respect Tito built with his players.  If Bobby and our FO can co-exist this could be a very good short term move.  There is a lot of talent on this team, but still huge decisions to be made before we get back to the PS.  So lets get going with players like Tek, Wake and David now that we have a new leader.
    Posted by craze4sox


    I'm thinking that once management realizes that they just signed a manager, it could be a long term for Bobby V.
    As far as your list, #2, #4 and #7 are important attributes to be a major league manager. None of these guys, managers, are psychologists or psychiatrists although some fans think they need to be. They're, for the most part, former baseball players. As far as the rest of that stuff, offer Dr. Phil a hefty fee, and he'll handle it.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Soxdog67. Show Soxdog67's posts

    Re: Tito/Bobby comparison

    In Response to Tito/Bobby comparison:
    Bobby Valentine?  #1 Cares about his players - Tito also           #2 Knows baseball as well as anyone - Tito? not as much #3 Isn't afraid to speak his mind - Tito? only to an extent     #4 Isn't afraid to discipline a player - Tito? not if it makes waves   #5 Has an anger isssue -  Tito? much more in control #6 may have trouble handling pressure in the big market - Tito did very well #7 Bobby will make sure players are in shape to play - Tito lost touch here #8 Bobby may overstep his ground with management - Tito not so much #9 Bobby has the sense of humor needed to keep players loose - As did Tito #10 Bobby loves to attack bad calls to a fault - Tito, knew when to back off #11 Can Bobby succeed managing a winning team as Tito did after leaving the Phils?  I say yes Bobby in my opinion brings a new energy that Tito lost after 8 season.  Bobby can also fix the issues on this team without losing the respect Tito built with his players.  If Bobby and our FO can co-exist this could be a very good short term move.  There is a lot of talent on this team, but still huge decisions to be made before we get back to the PS.  So lets get going with players like Tek, Wake and David now that we have a new leader.
    Posted by craze4sox


    craze, in my opinion I think you have mis-stated your points:

    1) I'm sorry any manager worth their weight in sunflower seeds cares about their players.
    2) Having played and managed the game at the major league level and growing up following the game while his dad played would certainly qualify Francona as "knowing the game"
    3) Seriously when did Francona not speak his mind while managing the Sox...is this in reference to the media or the players? If you are referring to his players, who says he didn't speak his mind to them behind closed doors and not in the public?
    4) Once again we don't know for certain if Francona never disciplined his players in private...we do know that he usually let them police themselves which ultimately led to his downfall.
    5) Francona was definitely more low key with the Boston media, it is to be determined how Valentine will handle this, but we can expect more headlines from Bobby than Tito ever provided.
    6) I guess managing in NY is not a big market...something new I learned today.
    7) No dispute with this one...I foresee Valentine spending more time on getting guys in shape and working fundamentals in spring training.
    8) This is a TBD...Francona and Epstein had a very good working relationship upto the end when things got a iffy.
    9) Not sure how to respond to this one and how it impacted the results of the team...its success and momentum that lead teams to win...and that makes them have more fun playing...not the manager telling jokes.
    10) Valentine will take a position and pressure the umpires that they made a bad call...hopefully helping him on the next close call...Francona let umps off the hook more often than not...I think he was more of a realist that the umps were not going to change their call so no sense beating a deadhorse.
    11) Time will tell.

    I believe Valentine is walking into a situation where the players are going to be more motivated to correct the wrongs committed in September...so they will be open to more discipline and expecting it now right off the bat.

    I know this is not probable, but I think I'd prefer not to spend the season comparing Valentine to Francona for every move the new guy makes...expect Valentine to make mistakes just as Francona did.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from drpjn. Show drpjn's posts

    Re: Tito/Bobby comparison

    The comparisons are not worth it.

    Tito did a wonderful job until September.  His large body of work here is not replicable, IMO.

    Two different eras of Red Sox baseball and team needs.  Tito was just what the doctor ordered until September 2011, Bobby is just what the doctor ordered for the months ahead.

    Thanks for everything, Tito and best wishes for the future.  Welcome, Bobby V, and good luck!
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Tito/Bobby comparison

    Wears Red Sox poncho 162 games a year regardless of the weather:  Tito - yes. Valentine - Never.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Tito/Bobby comparison

    In Response to Re: Tito/Bobby comparison:
    Wears Red Sox poncho 162 games a year regardless of the weather:  Tito - yes. Valentine - Never.
    Posted by BurritoT


    Tito had to wear that thing because of his circulatory problem, didn't he Burrito?
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Tito/Bobby comparison

    In Response to Re: Tito/Bobby comparison:
    The comparisons are not worth it. Tito did a wonderful job until September.  His large body of work here is not replicable, IMO. Two different eras of Red Sox baseball and team needs.  Tito was just what the doctor ordered until September 2011, Bobby is just what the doctor ordered for the months ahead. Thanks for everything, Tito and best wishes for the future.  Welcome, Bobby V, and good luck!
    Posted by drpjn

    I guess thats a good way of putting it.  Once the team began to manage Tito, instead of Tito managing them it was time for a change.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Tito/Bobby comparison

    In Response to Re: Tito/Bobby comparison:
    In Response to Tito/Bobby comparison : craze, in my opinion I think you have mis-stated your points: 1) I'm sorry any manager worth their weight in sunflower seeds cares about their players. 2) Having played and managed the game at the major league level and growing up following the game while his dad played would certainly qualify Francona as "knowing the game" 3) Seriously when did Francona not speak his mind while managing the Sox...is this in reference to the media or the players? If you are referring to his players, who says he didn't speak his mind to them behind closed doors and not in the public? 4) Once again we don't know for certain if Francona never disciplined his players in private...we do know that he usually let them police themselves which ultimately led to his downfall. 5) Francona was definitely more low key with the Boston media, it is to be determined how Valentine will handle this, but we can expect more headlines from Bobby than Tito ever provided. 6) I guess managing in NY is not a big market...something new I learned today. 7) No dispute with this one...I foresee Valentine spending more time on getting guys in shape and working fundamentals in spring training. 8) This is a TBD...Francona and Epstein had a very good working relationship upto the end when things got a iffy. 9) Not sure how to respond to this one and how it impacted the results of the team...its success and momentum that lead teams to win...and that makes them have more fun playing...not the manager telling jokes. 10) Valentine will take a position and pressure the umpires that they made a bad call...hopefully helping him on the next close call...Francona let umps off the hook more often than not...I think he was more of a realist that the umps were not going to change their call so no sense beating a deadhorse. 11) Time will tell. I believe Valentine is walking into a situation where the players are going to be more motivated to correct the wrongs committed in September...so they will be open to more discipline and expecting it now right off the bat. I know this is not probable, but I think I'd prefer not to spend the season comparing Valentine to Francona for every move the new guy makes...expect Valentine to make mistakes just as Francona did.
    Posted by Soxdog67

    Hey soxdog, I understand your points and Tito did know baseball but I think Valentine will do things Terry didn't.  Bobby played in NY which could be considered a "big market" even though the Mets never really had the right pieces in place like when Tito arrived here. I think Bobby's time with the struggling Mets was probably a good thing.  He should be fine and probably won't be a loyalist to certan players like Tito and Theo, or put up with slackers. 

    In other words, I think Bobby will be well liked and still keep order in the clubhouse which this team desperately needs.  I think Tito got tired of trying to play bad guy because it wasn't his nature and some guys just took advantage. 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: Tito/Bobby comparison

    You cannot compare managers and expect to be able to predict what the outcome of that team will be. With Boston, just like NY, it will still basically fall into the hands of the players themselves. We are not talking about small market teams here. They have to have the commitment, desire and most of all, execute at the highest levels to succeed. And it doesn't matter what the manager brings to the table - if the players are unwilling, then you cannot succeed at the highest level.

    Yes, diferent managers may bring different games to the park. I fully expect Boston to bunt and hit & run more under Bobby than they did with Tito. But the players still need to both accept the philosphy and execute the plan. Different managers may handle the bullpen differently, but it is still on the players to execute.

    I think some, if not most of the Sox roster will embrace Bobby, although there may very well be one or two that offer resistance.

    I think Boston is in for a fun ride the next two years. Do not expect immediate success. Patience is a virtue in this game. Just use your hated rivals as an example. 2008, Girardi's first year - no playoffs; 2009 - championship.

    Now when do the buses leave for Spring Training?
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Tito/Bobby comparison

    In Response to Re: Tito/Bobby comparison:
    You cannot compare managers and expect to be able to predict what the outcome of that team will be. With Boston, just like NY, it will still basically fall into the hands of the players themselves. We are not talking about small market teams here. They have to have the commitment, desire and most of all, execute at the highest levels to succeed. And it doesn't matter what the manager brings to the table - if the players are unwilling, then you cannot succeed at the highest level. Yes, diferent managers may bring different games to the park. I fully expect Boston to bunt and hit & run more under Bobby than they did with Tito. But the players still need to both accept the philosphy and execute the plan. Different managers may handle the bullpen differently, but it is still on the players to execute. I think some, if not most of the Sox roster will embrace Bobby, although there may very well be one or two that offer resistance. I think Boston is in for a fun ride the next two years. Do not expect immediate success. Patience is a virtue in this game. Just use your hated rivals as an example. 2008, Girardi's first year - no playoffs; 2009 - championship. Now when do the buses leave for Spring Training?
    Posted by jesseyeric

    jessey, I agree with the comparisons.  Both Tito and Bobby are capable of leading a team to the PS.  However only the players and a few key aquisitions can make this possible by putting the work effort in.

    Our team should be well focused next season with a huge chip on their shoulder and something to prove.  We still need at two solid pitchers, a RF and to make room on the roster for the next generation of talent.  If Theo wants players like Tek, Wake or even Drew let them go to the Cubs, I hope it helps extend their careers but they are pretty much done in Boston.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Tito/Bobby comparison

    Our team should be well focused next season with a huge chip on their shoulder and something to prove.

    I thought after 2010, they had a huge chip on their shoulder in 2011 as well.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: Tito/Bobby comparison

    Red Sox players are to blame for Tito effective firing. From Animal House:

    "You messed up, you trusted us."

    Tito trusted his former Union brothers. Big mistake.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Tito/Bobby comparison

    In Response to Re: Tito/Bobby comparison:
    Our team should be well focused next season with a huge chip on their shoulder and something to prove. I thought after 2010, they had a huge chip on their shoulder in 2011 as well.
    Posted by moonslav59


    Depends on how you define 'chip on the shoulder' Moon.  In my view, there was no cause for a proper 'chip' after 2010.  The failure to get to the post in 2010 had everything to do with injury decimation.  For all intents and purposes, the guys left from the 2010 roster did not really have anything to prove.  It was common sentiment that they were good enough and had enough winning attitude or whatever to be in the playoff mix in 2011 ... and that was before Gonzalez and Crawford.  With those additions, there really wa no 'chip' motivation at all.  Just the weight of expectation I guess.  

    2011 was a failure that the players have on their shoulders.  That is where chips on shoulders come from.  Now, they truly have something to prove.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Tito/Bobby comparison

    In Response to Re: Tito/Bobby comparison:
    Red Sox players are to blame for Tito effective firing. From Animal House: "You messed up, you trusted us." Tito trusted his former Union brothers. Big mistake.
    Posted by hankwilliams


    Somebody call the Pinkertons.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Tito/Bobby comparison

    In Response to Re: Tito/Bobby comparison:
    In Response to Re: Tito/Bobby comparison : Tito had to wear that thing because of his circulatory problem, didn't he Burrito?
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut


    Now I feel bad, I went too far again Embarassed
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Tito/Bobby comparison

    Bobby V wants to win every single day, Tito only wants to win the 1st two games of every series and then make sure that the guys get a day off to play video games in the clubhouse.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Tito/Bobby comparison

    In Response to Re: Tito/Bobby comparison:
    Bobby V wants to win every single day, Tito only wants to win the 1st two games of every series and then make sure that the guys get a day off to play video games in the clubhouse.
    Posted by BurritoT


    Bobby V's MLB teams have only won 51% of the time though.  So how much of a difference-maker has he been.  And why no MLB job the last decade.  Don't get too excited...
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Tito/Bobby comparison

    One game would make all the difference, one game.
     
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