Tito give us the NAMES, we want the NAMES of those Bastards!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from jader. Show jader's posts

    Re: Tito give us the NAMES, we want the NAMES of those Bastards!

    I agree 100%! Why aren't the reporters doing their jobs? Gammons did
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from pri360. Show pri360's posts

    Re: Tito give us the NAMES, we want the NAMES of those Bastards!

    In Response to Re: Tito give us the NAMES, we want the NAMES of those Bastards!:
    [QUOTE]Actually Francona was pretty adamant during the media session yesterday to say that John Lackey was not a problem in the clubhouse or on the field. As a matter of fact, for all of his antics on the field, he would apologize after the fact and was in good standing with the other players. Considering that Tito probably knew what he was going to do today, he could have easily thrown Lackey under the bus and confirmed he was a clubhouse problem...fact is he did not do that, so I think we need to look elsewhere. If I had to speculate on contributors to the problem, my first guess would be that Josh Beckett led the way maybe followed by Wakefield and Papelbon. Is there any possibility that the close relationship between Pedroia and Francona soured this year with Pedey crossing the respect line?? Once again I am totally speculating on this.
    Posted by Soxdog67[/QUOTE]
    I think the aceves thing is a good point -- i always wondered why the Yankees wouldn't sign him for a million, even if they were worried about his back ... when he's healthy .... he's money.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from tbrod. Show tbrod's posts

    Re: Tito give us the NAMES, we want the NAMES of those Bastards!

    Gammons is Theo's media puppet. He only reports what his maters tell him.
    He has zero credibility.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from playoffredsox. Show playoffredsox's posts

    Re: Tito give us the NAMES, we want the NAMES of those Bastards!

    IT WAS YOUK as one problem.

    Read Jackie MacMullan today: Unlikable Red Sox flunked chemistry

    http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/7036983/underachieving-boston-red-sox-flunked-chemistry


    "Ellsbury is a 2007 alum and an MVP candidate, a magnificent player with the brightest future of them all. His teammates like and admire him, but he keeps to himself, confides only in Jed Lowrie.

    Can you blame him? His teammate two or three lockers to his left continued, as recently as two months ago, to publicly question Ellsbury's decision to retreat to Arizona last summer for treatment for broken ribs. Kevin Youkilis has always been a hot button. On occasion, his intensity and his honesty were his biggest assets, but not this season. The injured Youkilis showed up every day the way he wanted Ellsbury to, but he turned so sour and cynical that his carping and insistence on inserting himself into other people's affairs turned him into a detriment."

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from plinny. Show plinny's posts

    Re: Tito give us the NAMES, we want the NAMES of those Bastards!

    The players needed the firm grip of a father, not the back-slap of a favorite uncle.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from peanutandme. Show peanutandme's posts

    Re: Tito give us the NAMES, we want the NAMES of those Bastards!

    Having been one who has often expressed my feelings about Francona as one who has been critical of his between the lines managing, I still feel Francona lacked the managerial skills to be effective, but to read where apparently some player's quit on him or under mined him, is inexcusible. For that reason I feel bad for Francona as no manager should ever have to endure that.

    And if Francona is truly gone, then I would only wish him good luck with whatever team he lands with. If he comes back, I will wish him good luck also, and hope he can surround himself with good people and return to winning baseball games.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from bhonest. Show bhonest's posts

    Re: Tito give us the NAMES, we want the NAMES of those Bastards!

    these players are young guys. they are not like the fans, media, or management. they are quite rich, so they are not like the media (reporters) or fans. they are nothing, nothing like management. everyone goes along with worship of the franchise that borders on silliness. from the sweet caroline to fenway mystique. but the players are wise enough to go along with it and not say anything that they will regret. but they are adversarial with management and media, and wary of fans who worship one moment and call for their NAMES a day later. often, the players are indifferent personaaly toward each other; or worse. it's not all one big happy family. whose is? so i am just sayin', keep things in perspective. like the players say, dont get too high or too low. don't be so emotional that you dont see how things really are til its too late.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: Tito give us the NAMES, we want the NAMES of those Bastards!

       I SAY "GO FOR IT", CLEAN HOUSE !!!   CHANGE IS GOOD !!!
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Tito give us the NAMES, we want the NAMES of those Bastards!

    The manager is supposed to be the guy in charge. It is up to him to control the clubhouse. Tito always tried to protect the players, but obviously they took advantage of him. That cannot be allowed to happen. I hope we find out more about this situation in the days ahead.  I have no doubt that Pedroia was never a problem. He is the one guy I would have the most faith in, but I never liked the buddy-buddy relationship between him and Tito, with the cribbage games, etc.  The manager should never become " one of the guys."  He can be friendly , but has to maintain a certain distance. Familiarity breeds contempt.  If some players were behaving improperly and getting away with it, then the other players may well have resented it , and lost respect for Tito.  Let's hope the names of the troublemakers come out. The fans who support the team have a right to know. Anyway , Tito had a nice run and plenty of good times and success. It is clearly time to go. One more thing I would like to add is ; What is the point of having a " bench coach " , and why are the players in the clubhouse playing cards and drinking when they should be on the bench supporting their teammates?  Also , what is the point of having a " Captain " , and where was " Captain " Varitek while all this nonsense was going on?  Finally , with Tito gone , we now need a complete overhaul of the coaching and training / conditioning staffs. 
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Tito give us the NAMES, we want the NAMES of those Bastards!

    I was thinking the same thing about Tek but then again, Jeter doesn't have control of the players either
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Tito give us the NAMES, we want the NAMES of those Bastards!

    I say the number one person is Youk.  I love Youk for the way he hustles and plays hard.  But his act has worn thin.  He used to train in Arizona with Pedey.  Now he looks fat and outta shape.  He has broken down two yrs running at crucial times.  Look back in history.
    1. Feud with Manny.
    2. Feud with Jacoby.
    3. Always yelling at Pedey in the field.
    4. This year when Agon threw a cup down and did some sorta ritual it clearly shows Youk shaking his head like Agon is some loser.

    I am places all my chips on Youk. 

    I know a lot is observed with Lackey and I think there could be something to it.  But he has always been that way even in LA when Soscia would come get him.  He had a terrible year and last year he had the most quality starts.  He looks arrogant and acts it.  But I have have listened to inteviews from his old team mates over the yrs who said he was a solid team mate.

    My bet is Youk.  And I wouldnt be shocked if he were dealt.  How about for David Wright.    

    Burrito.  Im not having a great week but your emotion on this made me laugh.  Thanks bud
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Medic87. Show Medic87's posts

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    My money is on Youk, but it has to be more than one, misery loves company, and its probably the one you would never think of.  Like the one rat in your office/job, that you would never think they would be a rat, until you find out the truth.

    I bet it will be 1 or more pitchers involved for sure.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from jam757. Show jam757's posts

    Re: Tito give us the NAMES, we want the NAMES of those Bastards!

    Way too many quiet, self-centered, mopey guys on this "team". We need to inject some "idiots" to the mix. Lackey should be given a one way ticket out of town. What a COSTLY mistake! He should never wear a Red Sox uniform again. Trade him for a prospect (if anyone is stupid enough) and eat 90% of his salary.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

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    In Response to Re: Tito give us the NAMES, we want the NAMES of those Bastards!:
    [QUOTE]The manager is supposed to be the guy in charge. It is up to him to control the clubhouse. Tito always tried to protect the players, but obviously they took advantage of him. That cannot be allowed to happen. I hope we find out more about this situation in the days ahead.  I have no doubt that Pedroia was never a problem. He is the one guy I would have the most faith in, but I never liked the buddy-buddy relationship between him and Tito, with the cribbage games, etc.  The manager should never become " one of the guys."  He can be friendly , but has to maintain a certain distance. Familiarity breeds contempt.  If some players were behaving improperly and getting away with it, then the other players may well have resented it , and lost respect for Tito.  Let's hope the names of the troublemakers come out. The fans who support the team have a right to know. Anyway , Tito had a nice run and plenty of good times and success. It is clearly time to go. One more thing I would like to add is ; What is the point of having a " bench coach " , and why are the players in the clubhouse playing cards and drinking when they should be on the bench supporting their teammates?  Also , what is the point of having a " Captain " , and where was " Captain " Varitek while all this nonsense was going on?  Finally , with Tito gone , we now need a complete overhaul of the coaching and training / conditioning staffs. 
    Posted by dgalehouse[/QUOTE]Few thoughts.

    Let's be leery of folks pulling at straws and what was typical "friction between brothers" and what were real issues.

    While Jackie is reported stuff with Youk, it sounds to me there were different and bigger issues.

    At the heart of it what it sounds like is that there were guys on this team that weren't being professional in their work habits and that split the room. Now whether Youk was one of the bumble bees whining about those guys, I wouldn't doubt it. It is called self-policing which every good clubhouse, locker room and dressing room in sports to some degree self polices.

    I doubt it was a matter of Francona and his staff just looking the other way FWIW. I think it was probably a matter of conversations and frustration for the staff all year. While it was sutile, Francona as early as June talked to the media about Crawford's unwillingness to run when he got on base his sub-par 29% of the time.

    The team leaves can take you lot's of places. Ortiz pizzed about no extension and having grown into a personality rather than a team leader? Wake pizzed about his use? Lackey constantly making excuses and nort following the program?

    As for Tek, I have always believed he was more of a "leader" of the pitching staff than a true team leader. He was on the bench when the room melted down in 2002. He was in the middle of a lot of whining about the hitting coach in 2006. And in fairness no one guy is single point of order in terms of self-policing.

    I don't really believe it is Terry's failure. I think the FO put together a collection of guys without enough concern for how they'd fit together in this market. And in part because you can't find that stuff on the back of a baseball card.

    Whether Terry stays or goes and the way this story is spinning it may not be as done a deal he is gone as earlier reports today indicated. But at any rate there will be coaching staff changes AND player personnel changes.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from mwTessie. Show mwTessie's posts

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    In Response to Re: Tito give us the NAMES, we want the NAMES of those Bastards!:
    [QUOTE]Starting Pitchers who weren't pitching that day were drinking beers before games - not players scheduled to play. I think it's Lackey. I think he's the bad apple.  Him and Beckett seem to be pals and if the 2 highest paid players on the team are acting out, there's not a whole lot anyone can do. Get rid Lackey and Wakefield. 
    Posted by DirtyWaterLover[/QUOTE]

    Kevin Millar a little while ago on EEI seemed to confirm what both Tito and Theo said yesterday... that Lackey's clubhouse demeanor was not a problem.  He further said something to the effect that while Lackey's actions don't necessarily go over well with the fans, he has fire and passion, wants the ball, and his teammates don't have a problem with him.  Millar usually says it like it is.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from sindarin-erebor. Show sindarin-erebor's posts

    Re: Tito give us the NAMES, we want the NAMES of those Bastards!

    I am wondering about Crawford's response a week or two ago, and I forget the reporter's question, but Carl said fairly tersely, "Go talk to the Captain" I wonder what that was about???
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from mwTessie. Show mwTessie's posts

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    In Response to Re: Tito give us the NAMES, we want the NAMES of those Bastards!:
    [QUOTE]I am wondering about Crawford's response a week or two ago, and I forget the reporter's question, but Carl said fairly tersely, "Go talk to the Captain" I wonder what that was about???
    Posted by sindarin-erebor[/QUOTE]

    Good point... I never really made that connection either.  I was looking for more explanation following the initial report, but it never came.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from 68fbrd. Show 68fbrd's posts

    Re: Tito give us the NAMES, we want the NAMES of those Bastards!

    Here you go.......

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDKwpbkIpQ4
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from YankeeBill. Show YankeeBill's posts

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    In Response to Re: Tito give us the NAMES, we want the NAMES of those Bastards!:
    [QUOTE]I was thinking the same thing about Tek but then again, Jeter doesn't have control of the players either
    Posted by andrewmitch[/QUOTE]

    I think Jeter does have control ! You just don't hear about it.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from davidap. Show davidap's posts

    Re: Tito give us the NAMES, we want the NAMES of those Bastards!

    It's NOT Lackey. Francona is a diplomat, not an outright liar. Lackey is the only guy he singled out as being good in the clubhouse. Lackey is the only guy Francona defended to the press. I think Lackey is probably just an emotional competitor who cares a lot about his performance and gets caught up in the heat of the moment. That can be a good thing. He usually apologizes after his on-field histronics and everyone claims they get along with him well.

    The four obvious candidates to me are: 1) Kevin Youkilis (feuds with everyone, respects no one), 2) David Ortiz (feels increasingly isolated, misses the old guard, openly questions the manager, thinks he owns Boston due to his admittedly legendary play from 03-06), 3) Alfredo Aceves (a confirmed powder keg who the Yankees refused to bring back despite being one of the best young relievers in history, by some statistical metrics), 4) Jacoby Ellsbury (an outsider whose commitment has been questioned).

    Some open question marks include 1) Josh Beckett, 2) Jason Varitek, 3) Tim Wakefield, 4) Jed Lowrie (he seems like another Ellsbury mentally), 5) Jarrod Saltalamacchia, 6) Dustin Pedroia, 7) Jon Papelbon, 8) Daniel Bard, 9) Jon Lester and other assorted pitchers. We just don't really know what these guys are like behind closed doors. Another big question mark for me is Mike Aviles. This team took a cataclysmic slide after acquiring him. It might be a coincidence, or it could be that he's another Alfredo Aceves. We don't know.

    I think a possible troublemaker, aside from Matsuzaka and Okajima who weren't around much anyway this year, is Adrian Gonzalez. Keep in mind he's now been a part of two major collapses in consecutive years (the Padres just missed out last season on the final day). He seems passive-aggressive. He doesn't take ownership over anything. If something goes wrong, "it wasn't part of the Lord's plan." If his team struggles, he seems stolid and indifferent about it. That kind of blase attitude can bother a lot of people, especially if it manifests itself in the field. From an emotional makeup standpoint, give me a John Lackey who cares over an Adrian Gonzalez who behaves the same whether he's successful or fails.

    Some guys who I suspect are in the "good clubhouse presence" category include 1) Marco Scutaro (seems like an all-round outstanding person who always puts in the effort and was one of the few guys to play well down the stretch), and 2) Darnell McDonald (he must have been doing something right to stay on the team most of the year and remember he got invited to a lot of player-hosted events at the end of last season, which indicates he's well-liked by everyone), and 3) Carl Crawford (takes full responsibility for his foibles and seems to genuinely care about his performance and that of his team's. He does seem somewhat isolated, however.) That's really about it. Are there any other clear good guys on this team?
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Soxdog67. Show Soxdog67's posts

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    In Response to Re: Tito give us the NAMES, we want the NAMES of those Bastards!:
    [QUOTE]Here you go....... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDKwpbkIpQ4
    Posted by 68fbrd[/QUOTE]

    Hmmm and seriously maybe this maybe a decent clue as to whom the problem children were...Beckett, Lester, Lackey, Buchholz & Wakefield...

    ...and what was the biggest issue in September?? Um, the starting pitchers!!
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from chuck55. Show chuck55's posts

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    I am a transplanted Sox fan here in TN and a local sports station here in nashville mentione Youk becoming a head case. I wondered what they were talking about. Shock the hell out of me, I was a Youk fan but not if he has created issues on the team. Lackey = must go
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from antiqueman1. Show antiqueman1's posts

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    In Response to Re: Tito give us the NAMES, we want the NAMES of those Bastards!:
    [QUOTE]   I SAY "GO FOR IT", CLEAN HOUSE !!!   CHANGE IS GOOD !!!
    Posted by Bill-806[/QUOTE]

    I thought I remember Bill you questioning me about when I said this all may bring change to Boston. You questioned my baseball savy. And now you are all for it. Make up your mind.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Tito give us the NAMES, we want the NAMES of those Bastards!

    In Response to Re: Tito give us the NAMES, we want the NAMES of those Bastards!:
    [QUOTE]It's NOT Lackey. Francona is a diplomat, not an outright liar. Lackey is the only guy he singled out as being good in the clubhouse. Lackey is the only guy Francona defended to the press. I think Lackey is probably just an emotional competitor who cares a lot about his performance and gets caught up in the heat of the moment. That can be a good thing. He usually apologizes after his on-field histronics and everyone claims they get along with him well. The four obvious candidates to me are: 1) Kevin Youkilis (feuds with everyone, respects no one), 2) David Ortiz (feels increasingly isolated, misses the old guard, openly questions the manager, thinks he owns Boston due to his admittedly legendary play from 03-06), 3) Alfredo Aceves (a confirmed powder keg who the Yankees refused to bring back despite being one of the best young relievers in history, by some statistical metrics), 4) Jacoby Ellsbury (an outsider whose commitment has been questioned). Some open question marks include 1) Josh Beckett, 2) Jason Varitek, 3) Tim Wakefield, 4) Jed Lowrie (he seems like another Ellsbury mentally), 5) Jarrod Saltalamacchia, 6) Dustin Pedroia, 7) Jon Papelbon, 8) Daniel Bard, 9) Jon Lester and other assorted pitchers. We just don't really know what these guys are like behind closed doors. Another big question mark for me is Mike Aviles. This team took a cataclysmic slide after acquiring him. It might be a coincidence, or it could be that he's another Alfredo Aceves. We don't know. I think a possible troublemaker, aside from Matsuzaka and Okajima who weren't around much anyway this year, is Adrian Gonzalez. Keep in mind he's now been a part of two major collapses in consecutive years (the Padres just missed out last season on the final day). He seems passive-aggressive. He doesn't take ownership over anything. If something goes wrong, "it wasn't part of the Lord's plan." If his team struggles, he seems stolid and indifferent about it. That kind of blase attitude can bother a lot of people, especially if it manifests itself in the field. From an emotional makeup standpoint, give me a John Lackey who cares over an Adrian Gonzalez who behaves the same whether he's successful or fails. Some guys who I suspect are in the "good clubhouse presence" category include 1) Marco Scutaro (seems like an all-round outstanding person who always puts in the effort and was one of the few guys to play well down the stretch), and 2) Darnell McDonald (he must have been doing something right to stay on the team most of the year and remember he got invited to a lot of player-hosted events at the end of last season, which indicates he's well-liked by everyone), and 3) Carl Crawford (takes full responsibility for his foibles and seems to genuinely care about his performance and that of his team's. He does seem somewhat isolated, however.) That's really about it. Are there any other clear good guys on this team?
    Posted by davidap[/QUOTE]You lost me at Crawford and Ellsbury.

    If Ellsbury was a problem with guys, unless those guys were Lester, Beckett, Pedey and A-Gon, dump them not him.

    Crawford's caring IMHO is a lot more about sound bites than actions. The guy played lazy, uninspired defense, refused to use his speed the lousy 29% of the time he did get OB and never changed his plate approach. It smacked of a lazy player who had made his money.   
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Tito give us the NAMES, we want the NAMES of those Bastards!

    My guesses

    Lackey- out of shape, showing up teammates, showing up the manager, generally sucking and having a lousy attitude.

    Agone- Sorry to say it but if he is whining publicly about travel schedules and night games, you know it is worse when there are no reporters around.

    Beckett/Papi/Youk/Drew/etc... -  I think the old guard was just too comfortable with Tito.  Drew more or less made a decision to take the year off with a string of 'kind of' injuries, that doesn't play well.  Youk seemed out of shape to me and even before the injuries wasn't have his best year.  Beckett too, he fatigued significantly as the season went on.  By September Josh was regularly and visibily spent by the 6th inning.

    Pedey/Ells/Scutaro- NOT THE PROBLEM.  If the whole team had their approach we'd be playing tonight.
     

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