TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?

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    TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?

    CAN anyone think of an exception? was stunned to hear him say that on the eei rewind of his interview from earlier today. guess was doing it to justify why he's so committed to just done drew! 
     
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    Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?

     The reverse is true too, he played Lowell every day coming back from surgery until he was crippled. Smoltz and Penny never paid off, if I remember correctly.
     
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    Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?

    In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?:
    [QUOTE] The reverse is true too, he played Lowell every day coming back from surgery until he was crippled. Smoltz and Penny never paid off, if I remember correctly.
    Posted by YOUKILLUS20[/QUOTE]

    I don't know how Smoltz and Penny fit this example.

    Look it up -- Penny had a string of 15 starts from the beginning of May to near the end of July when he went 5-3 with a 3.85 ERA and could have had a couple of more wins with runs support.

    He then had just five more starts before being released, and two weren't exactly horrible 6 IP, 3 ER and 5.2, 4 ER. What -- after that 15-game string, was he supposed to be dropped after one bad start.

    And the Sox just took a flier on Smoltz. He had just eight starts, which is a fair enough to see if he had anything left. And his fourth start was a 5 IP, 1 ER game. So at that point, it might have looked like he was coming around. He had just four starts after that.

    Besides -- what was Francona supposed to do. If you recall, the plan was never to have both in the starting rotation at the same time, but the Sox had too many injuries to the staff.

    As for Lowell, Francona was in a no-win situation. You're criticizing him for playing Lowell too much early in that season. But if you recall, he was helping to carry the offense at that time. If Tito sat Lowell, others would have been all over him for sitting a hot bat when the Sox needed them -- the old, games in May are as important as games in September. And remember, Youk was on the DL in May too, which forced Lowell to play more.


     
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    Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?

    if he said this he is dumber than i ever imagined - i mean didnt they just release Cameron???? didnt they chitcan Smoltz? Gagne????? Renteria? There are a busload of vets that never rewarded anyone with anything except their own pockets...dumb

    I guess Coma is feeling the heat for his lousy late inning pitching moves...good...about time people starting waking up
     
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    Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?

    In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE? : I don't know how Smoltz and Penny fit this example. Look it up -- Penny had a string of 15 starts from the beginning of May to near the end of July when he went 5-3 with a 3.85 ERA and could have had a couple of more wins with runs support. He then had just five more starts before being released, and two weren't exactly horrible 6 IP, 3 ER and 5.2, 4 ER. What -- after that 15-game string, was he supposed to be dropped after one bad start. And the Sox just took a flier on Smoltz. He had just eight starts, which is a fair enough to see if he had anything left. And his fourth start was a 5 IP, 1 ER game. So at that point, it might have looked like he was coming around. He had just four starts after that. Besides -- what was Francona supposed to do. If you recall, the plan was never to have both in the starting rotation at the same time, but the Sox had too many injuries to the staff. As for Lowell, Francona was in a no-win situation. You're criticizing him for playing Lowell too much early in that season. But if you recall, he was helping to carry the offense at that time. If Tito sat Lowell, others would have been all over him for sitting a hot bat when the Sox needed them -- the old, games in May are as important as games in September. And remember, Youk was on the DL in May too, which forced Lowell to play more.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

      Roy, I looked it up like you said, and it's not pretty, 33ER in his last 38 innings with the Sox. At the end of May, with good run support he was 5-1, he was 2-7 in his next 9 decisions, so it looks like sticking with him went south.
     Playing Lowell like that was inexcusable, 65 of the first 67 games.
     
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    Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?

      OK, OK, I going out on a limb here, because I've always taken it at face value, because it seems logical, but it isn't. I'm talking about the premise that a game in April or May is as important as one in September. From a perspective of scarcity, it's true, there is a finite number of games in the season. From the perspective of importance it's patently false. The Orioles play important games in April and May, but none in September. We were all reminded that the slow start to the season was unimportant. Why? Because there were so many more games to come, plenty of time to win and reduce the relevancy of those games. September games are important if you have taken care of business throughout the previous 130 games, if not, than September games are irrelevant and are not important at all. This philosophy is espoused by Tito, in his willingness to not try to win EVERY game.
     So are you a Franconian or a Whig?
     
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    Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?

    In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE? :   Roy, I looked it up like you said, and it's not pretty, 33ER in his last 38 innings with the Sox. At the end of May, with good run support he was 5-1, he was 2-7 in his next 9 decisions, so it looks like sticking with him went south.  Playing Lowell like that was inexcusable, 65 of the first 67 games.
    Posted by YOUKILLUS20[/QUOTE]

    Look deeper at Penny.
    He had the bad April, no doubt, then had these are the 15 starts starting with the first start of May.
    (The first two starts are officially QS, so they're not bad. He won one and lost one and to me, that's the right outcome. It should be a 50-50 proposition.)

    6 IP, 3 ER (L) 
    6.1 IP, 3 ER (W) 
    6.1 IP, 4 ER (ND, Not great, but certainly no reason to dump him).
    6.2 IP, 2 ER (W)
    5.1 IP, 3 ER (W -- run support helped. It was a good enough start to keep sending hiim out).
    6.0 IP, 2 ER (ND, good enough to win).
    5.2 IP 5 ER (L, His first really horrible start in more than a month).
    6.0 IP, 0 ER (ND, Good enough to win).
    5.0 IP, 0 ER (W)
    5.2 IP, 3 ER (ND, a decent enough outing).
    6.0 IP, 2 ER (L, good enough to win).
    6.0 IP, 2 ER (ND, good enough to win).
    5.0 IP, 3 ER (ND, not great, not horrible. Kept the team in the game.)
    5.0 IP, 6 ER (L, only his second really bad start in this streak).
    6.1 IP, 0 ER (W).

    Totals 87.1 IP, 38 ER, 3.92 (a bit higher than I remember). Every team would stick with a guy pitching like this.

    This is my point. During this run, there was no reason to dump him. After the slow start in April, it looked like he was turned it around. And this is from a No. 4 or No. 5 starter.

    It went south after this run. He had just five more starts, one was a QS before being dumped. So you really can't say Tito stuck with him too long. And besides, what was Tito supposed to do. The pitching staff had a bunch of injuries and these (him and Smoltz) were the guys that needed to start.

    When Theo dumped them and gave Tito other starters, (Buch coming up was one of them), Tito went with them.

    Again with Lowell -- what was Tito supposed to do. The offense was struggling. Lowell was red hot .310 4 HR, 23 RBI in April and .307 BA, 4 HR, 12 RBI in May. Youk went on the DL, Kotsay, Bates and the others stuck in at 1B weren't hitting. Francona was in a no-win situation that should be acknowledge. He admitted that he didn't want to play Lowell like he did, but his options were limited.


     
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    Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?

    In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?:
    [QUOTE]  OK, OK, I going out on a limb here, because I've always taken it at face value, because it seems logical, but it isn't. I'm talking about the premise that a game in April or May is as important as one in September. From a perspective of scarcity, it's true, there is a finite number of games in the season. From the perspective of importance it's patently false. The Orioles play important games in April and May, but none in September. We were all reminded that the slow start to the season was unimportant. Why? Because there were so many more games to come, plenty of time to win and reduce the relevancy of those games. September games are important if you have taken care of business throughout the previous 130 games, if not, than September games are irrelevant and are not important at all. This philosophy is espoused by Tito, in his willingness to not try to win EVERY game.  So are you a Franconian or a Whig?
    Posted by YOUKILLUS20[/QUOTE]

    You're accusing Francona of not trying to win every game yet ripping him for playing a red-hot Lowell so much in April and May of 2009 when the offense needed him because other players were cold then Youk went on the D.L. 

    You can't have it both ways.
     
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    Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?

    In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE? : You're accusing Francona of not trying to win every game yet ripping him for playing a red-hot Lowell so much in April and May of 2009 when the offense needed him because other players were cold then Youk went on the D.L.  You can't have it both ways.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

     Tito rested guys in September, expecting the Rangers to falter, which they did, and the Sox backed into the play-offs. His record is clear on not trying to win every game. You can't have it both ways either, he either had no choice and had to play Lowell, or he chose to play Lowell because he was trying to win every game.
     
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    Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?

    Every post whiffed so far IMHO. He certainly didn't stick with Cameron. Penny and Smoltz as others have pointed out are bad examples and it wasn't like there were options. Renteria was all he had, the RS had to sign a FA at the end of the year after trading him to fill the spot. Sometimes you play the hands the GM gave you. And Gagne is a total reach. That certainly wasn't too long, after all he was a deadline pick-up that was widely cheered at the time the trade was made.

    The answer folks is Mark Bellhorn, 2005. But his point is taken that the vets usually have rewarded him whether it was Millar late in 2004 and 2005 or Damon in the 2004 post season or Ortiz that most of the free world had released in 2009 and again in 2010.

    And I think he might disagree with whether he has gone too long with Drew. It is a matter of perspective. If Drew is still not hitting and playing against all RH pitchers 30 days from now, that would not be perspective.

    His team is in first place and the production from RF hasn't seemed to hurt MLB's best offense too much. By much of the logic here, he should immediately bench Gonzalez before it gets any worse.
     
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    Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?

    In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE? : Look deeper at Penny. He had the bad April, no doubt, then had these are the 15 starts starting with the first start of May. (The first two starts are officially QS, so they're not bad. He won one and lost one and to me, that's the right outcome. It should be a 50-50 proposition.) 6 IP, 3 ER (L)  6.1 IP, 3 ER (W)  6.1 IP, 4 ER (ND, Not great, but certainly no reason to dump him). 6.2 IP, 2 ER (W) 5.1 IP, 3 ER (W -- run support helped. It was a good enough start to keep sending hiim out). 6.0 IP, 2 ER (ND, good enough to win). 5.2 IP 5 ER (L, His first really horrible start in more than a month). 6.0 IP, 0 ER (ND, Good enough to win). 5.0 IP, 0 ER (W) 5.2 IP, 3 ER (ND, a decent enough outing). 6.0 IP, 2 ER (L, good enough to win). 6.0 IP, 2 ER (ND, good enough to win). 5.0 IP, 3 ER (ND, not great, not horrible. Kept the team in the game.) 5.0 IP, 6 ER (L, only his second really bad start in this streak). 6.1 IP, 0 ER (W). Totals 87.1 IP, 38 ER, 3.92 (a bit higher than I remember). Every team would stick with a guy pitching like this. This is my point. During this run, there was no reason to dump him. After the slow start in April, it looked like he was turned it around. And this is from a No. 4 or No. 5 starter. It went south after this run. He had just five more starts, one was a QS before being dumped. So you really can't say Tito stuck with him too long. And besides, what was Tito supposed to do. The pitching staff had a bunch of injuries and these (him and Smoltz) were the guys that needed to start. When Theo dumped them and gave Tito other starters, (Buch coming up was one of them), Tito went with them. Again with Lowell -- what was Tito supposed to do. The offense was struggling. Lowell was red hot .310 4 HR, 23 RBI in April and .307 BA, 4 HR, 12 RBI in May. Youk went on the DL, Kotsay, Bates and the others stuck in at 1B weren't hitting. Francona was in a no-win situation that should be acknowledge. He admitted that he didn't want to play Lowell like he did, but his options were limited.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]
     After the last outing you listed, against Baltimore, he was sitting at 7-4, then he faced Oakland, TB, Detroit, Texas and New York, 0-4. The shine was off, he wasn't able to go deep, and was becoming less and less effective. The original premise was he was a veteran who didn't pan out, he had 24 games, carried him into late August, he had his chances, and was not very good. No one here is pining for the good ol' days of Brad Penny.
     
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    Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?

    In Response to TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?:
    [QUOTE]CAN anyone think of an exception? was stunned to hear him say that on the eei rewind of his interview from earlier today. guess was doing it to justify why he's so committed to just done drew! 
    Posted by COMMUNIST-CONTRARIAN[/QUOTE]

    You guys do realize that managers just say things like this for motivation right? Managers in all fields say things like this. "You guys are the best crew I have ever had etc" then a week later you get laid off.  You think Francona is going to say, "man Wake and Drew are on their last legs"?  

     
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    Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?

    In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?:
    [QUOTE]Every post whiffed so far IMHO. He certainly didn't stick with Cameron. Penny and Smoltz as others have pointed out are bad examples and it wasn't like there were options. Renteria was all he had, the RS had to sign a FA at the end of the year after trading him to fill the spot. Sometimes you play the hands the GM gave you. And Gagne is a total reach. That certainly wasn't too long, after all he was a deadline pick-up that was widely cheered at the time the trade was made. The answer folks is Mark Bellhorn, 2005. But his point is taken that the vets usually have rewarded him whether it was Millar late in 2004 and 2005 or Damon in the 2004 post season or Ortiz that most of the free world had released in 2009 and again in 2010. And I think he might disagree with whether he has gone too long with Drew. It is a matter of perspective. If Drew is still not hitting and playing against all RH pitchers 30 days from now, that would not be perspective. His team is in first place and the production from RF hasn't seemed to hurt MLB's best offense too much. By much of the logic here, he should immediately bench Gonzalez before it gets any worse.
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

     I almost never disagree with you, so maybe I'm misreading your post, but Penny had 24 games in the rotation thru August 21, if thats not sticking with him, I don't know what is, after all there were only 41 games left in the season.
     
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    Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?

    In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?:
    [QUOTE]  OK, OK, I going out on a limb here, because I've always taken it at face value, because it seems logical, but it isn't. I'm talking about the premise that a game in April or May is as important as one in September. From a perspective of scarcity, it's true, there is a finite number of games in the season. From the perspective of importance it's patently false. The Orioles play important games in April and May, but none in September. We were all reminded that the slow start to the season was unimportant. Why? Because there were so many more games to come, plenty of time to win and reduce the relevancy of those games. September games are important if you have taken care of business throughout the previous 130 games, if not, than September games are irrelevant and are not important at all. This philosophy is espoused by Tito, in his willingness to not try to win EVERY game.  So are you a Franconian or a Whig?
    Posted by YOUKILLUS20[/QUOTE]

    You try to win every game in the framework of a season.
    He has just so much at his disposal at a given time. So, he tries to get the pieces to fit. Who's available? Who's hurting but can playing anyway? Who's in top form?
    How do I mask the holes? What do I do in case...
     
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    Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?

    In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE? : You guys do realize that managers just say things like this for motivation right? Managers in all fields say things like this. "You guys are the best crew I have ever had etc" then a week later you get laid off.  You think Francona is going to say, "man Wake and Drew are on their last legs"?  
    Posted by snakeoil123[/QUOTE]

     You're right, we should never comment on anything that shows up in the other media, because it's a coded message that means something else. You do realize that I'm really saying something else here, like maybe you shouldn't comment?
     
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    Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?

    In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE? : You try to win every game in the framework of a season. He has just so much at his disposal at a given time. So, he tries to get the pieces to fit. Who's available? Who's hurting but can playing anyway? Who's in top form? How do I mask the holes? What do I do in case...
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

     Yeah, I agree. At it's essence though is the belief that every game is not as important, April vs September. This is a concept that draws a line, you're either on one side or the other, otherwise, you contradict yourself.
     
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    Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?

    In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE? :  After the last outing you listed, against Baltimore, he was sitting at 7-4, then he faced Oakland, TB, Detroit, Texas and New York, 0-4. The shine was off, he wasn't able to go deep, and was becoming less and less effective. The original premise was he was a veteran who didn't pan out, he had 24 games, carried him into late August, he had his chances, and was not very good. No one here is pining for the good ol' days of Brad Penny.
    Posted by YOUKILLUS20[/QUOTE]

    I guess we're debating two different themes.

    I interpreted the OP not as veterans who didn't pan out. Of course there are going to be veterans who don't pan out. I think Tito will admit that.

    The title says "stuck long with a vet who didn't reward my faith," which means, struggling veterans who he stuck with a long time who didn't rewart his faith.

    Penny and Smoltz don't fit that category.

    When Penny started struggling after that solid 15-game stretch, the Sox stuck with Penny for only five games before dropping him. That's not sticking with a struggling veteran for a long time.

    Giving Smoltz eight starts to see if he had anything less also isn't sticking with a veteran for a long time. The Sox took a flier on a future HOF'er to see if he had anything left. Because of injuries, there was a spot in the rotation. They gave him eight starts. He didn't have anything left. That's not sticking with a struggling veteran for a long time.

    And beyond that, I don't understand why some posters give Theo a lot of grief on Smoltz. They took a flier on him. It didn't work out. Big deal. It wasn't for a lot of money and it's not like they held someone back because of him. Because of injuries, they were searching for any warm body they could find.
     
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    Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?

    In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE? : I guess we're debating two different themes. I interpreted the OP not as veterans who didn't pan out. Of course there are going to be veterans who don't pan out. I think Tito will admit that. The title says "stuck long with a vet who didn't reward my faith," which means, struggling veterans who he stuck with a long time who didn't rewart his faith. Penny and Smoltz don't fit that category. When Penny started struggling after that solid 15-game stretch, the Sox stuck with Penny for only five games before dropping him. That's not sticking with a struggling veteran for a long time. Giving Smoltz eight starts to see if he had anything less also isn't sticking with a veteran for a long time. The Sox took a flier on a future HOF'er to see if he had anything left. Because of injuries, there was a spot in the rotation. They gave him eight starts. He didn't have anything left. That's not sticking with a struggling veteran for a long time. And beyond that, I don't understand why some posters give Theo a lot of grief on Smoltz. They took a flier on him. It didn't work out. Big deal. It wasn't for a lot of money and it's not like they held someone back because of him. Because of injuries, they were searching for any warm body they could find.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

     You added a lot of clarity here, I can see what you're saying.
     
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    Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?

    Smoltz was relatively expensive, given the risk. It would have been minimized had Dice stayed on team training regiment.
     
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    Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?

    In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE? :  Yeah, I agree. At it's essence though is the belief that every game is not as important, April vs September. This is a concept that draws a line, you're either on one side or the other, otherwise, you contradict yourself.
    Posted by YOUKILLUS20[/QUOTE]

    I don't recognize the line in the context of the philosophy, Youk.
    Tito aplies the same mind-set to every game, every series, every month.
     
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    Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?

    In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE? :  I almost never disagree with you, so maybe I'm misreading your post, but Penny had 24 games in the rotation thru August 21, if thats not sticking with him, I don't know what is, after all there were only 41 games left in the season.
    Posted by YOUKILLUS20[/QUOTE]Keep in mind the RS had to sign Paul Byrd who was pitching batting practice to his kid's high school team just to field 5 starting pitchers that same season.

    Now I assume when we talk about sticking with someone that the 25 man roster has viable options on it to replace. That's why I also think that the Renteria example was weak.

    Particularly with starting pitchers until the Gm, goes and gets you a better option you tend to be in a position where you just have to keep putting the guy out there every 5th start.
     
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    Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?

    Yeah, I agree. At it's essence though is the belief that every game is not as important, April vs September. This is a concept that draws a line, you're either on one side or the other, otherwise, you contradict yourself.

    This philosophy is espoused by Tito, in his willingness to not try to win EVERY game.

    I'm sensing two separate lines here.  I agree that all wins are about equal.  A win in April seems about the same as a win in September, though there might be some nuances about either speeding up to create momentum, or slowing down to rest your guys.

    However, the second thought is not the same.  If you're not willing to sacrifice s/t success for l/t success, you might as well kiss the season goodbye.
     
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    Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?

    In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE? :  You're right, we should never comment on anything that shows up in the other media, because it's a coded message that means something else. You do realize that I'm really saying something else here, like maybe you shouldn't comment?
    Posted by YOUKILLUS20[/QUOTE]

    I didn't say that people should never comment on things said in the media. What I said was managers say things to help the morale of their players.  Were you actually responding to my post?  Because you didn't seem to understand any of it.

     
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    Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?

    In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE? : I guess we're debating two different themes. I interpreted the OP not as veterans who didn't pan out. Of course there are going to be veterans who don't pan out. I think Tito will admit that. The title says "stuck long with a vet who didn't reward my faith," which means, struggling veterans who he stuck with a long time who didn't rewart his faith. Penny and Smoltz don't fit that category. When Penny started struggling after that solid 15-game stretch, the Sox stuck with Penny for only five games before dropping him. That's not sticking with a struggling veteran for a long time. Giving Smoltz eight starts to see if he had anything less also isn't sticking with a veteran for a long time. The Sox took a flier on a future HOF'er to see if he had anything left. Because of injuries, there was a spot in the rotation. They gave him eight starts. He didn't have anything left. That's not sticking with a struggling veteran for a long time. And beyond that, I don't understand why some posters give Theo a lot of grief on Smoltz. They took a flier on him. It didn't work out. Big deal. It wasn't for a lot of money and it's not like they held someone back because of him. Because of injuries, they were searching for any warm body they could find.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]
    roy, ur on the money with my intentions.. many vets have and will failed. called life. about sticking with them too much. cameron, he didnt. give him enough rope. with mac and drew, ine can make the argument that he has stuck his neck out there hoping for anything. same with theo. i would think theo takes his views into consideration. he didnt for scutaro to start the year. my personal conclusion is that he may be right overall with that statement. he deliberately brought up papi last year.. big points for him. i would throw in wake as well. as a 5th guy, he's okay. 

    lackey at 18m, he really has no shot. thats a theo special. same with dice. i would throw both tek and salty in that mix as well. perhaps bellhorn was a failure in this approach. but he cut bait with foulke pretty quick when he started his slide. he's stuck it out with pap the last few years. frankly, i think tito has got it just right and is right in his statement. once he cuts bait though, he curs it! pedy was not a vet but who can forget that experiment when he stunk and tito kept running him out there. ho about this year when folks like me were calling for him to be dropped to 7th so craw could move up? now pedy's raking! even most of his one batter too much stuff, more often than not it seems to work out and he only does it with certaib types. tito is bold and ok. 
     
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    Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?

    In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: TITO: I'VE NEVER STUCK LONG WITH A VET WHO DIDNT REWARD MY FAITH! TRUE? : I didn't say that people should never comment on things said in the media. What I said was managers say things to help the morale of their players.  Were you actually responding to my post?  Because you didn't seem to understand any of it.
    Posted by snakeoil123[/QUOTE]good point snake. tito is great at that as are doc and bb. they never sell out their guys but watch their actions. they make it clear when cutting bait. 
     

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