Trades Made & what if we could go back.....

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    Trades Made & what if we could go back.....

    Long time Sox/Celtic fan although I've lived in SF Bay area past 40+ years so have had more chances to watch west coast teams. I've always liked Adrain Gonzalez, Russell Martin(Dodgers) & Eric Chavez (A's). Still love Adran Gonzalez & believe he will live up to what is expected but somehow I believe we were more interested in the Yankees not getting him and Crawford than truly analyzing their benefits, cost wise too, to our team. Monday morning quarterback I know but with Crawford & Gonzalez costing us $142 & $154 million or almost $300 mil, resigning Beltre & Martinez who went for $42 mil & $80 mil respectively albeit shorter contracts(4 years instead of 7 I think)  might not have been the worst decision. How about the long term contracts of Matsuzaka, Lackey & Drew killing us now ??? With Martinez we would not have needed Saltalamacchia & could have picked up Russell Martin as NY did for only $4 mil as catcher backup. And to back up Beltre if we didn't want to use Youkilis, we could have picked up Eric Chavez who also went to Yanks for 1.5 mil. Going after Gonzalez was OK but Crawford so far is not living up to expectations & I do realize Yankees would have gotten him if we didn't. I know Damon didn't want to come back to us when he left Yankees and he said it wasn't the money. When someone says it's not a question of money, ask the question again. I'd rather have him than Drew & Cameron and it would have been nice for him to end in Boston, a true hero in 2004 series vs. Yankees.

    OK, just abit despondent about our team these days so thanks for letting me let off some steam !!!
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Trades Made & what if we could go back.....

    Few thoughts.

    The NYY had zero interest in Adrian Gonzalez. They have Mark Texieria. The RS were not hot for A-Gon to keep the NYY from getting him, they were hot on him because of his skills sets and their lack of power hitting corner IF in the system. In fact I really do believe the RS when they say that they make moves to make their team better not to block an opponent. 

    Drew is the typical cost of signing a FA, if you assume he will have a down year this year. Drew is a lightning rod in this town but when he was signed the RS had no internal options for RF except Adam Stern. He filled the most difficult defensive position in Fenway Park and the RS went to the post season three years in a row with him on the roster.

    The RS were in play on Martin and according to reports backed off due to concerns about his medical condition. So far, oops.

    DiceK is not an anchor contract, the dude is only making $10M and while $10M is a whole lot of money to us, in the industry it was .500 WPCT pitchers tend to cost once out of arbitration.

    Lackey makes what guys like DLowe and AJ Burnett do. And his performance is similar.

    While it will take a few years not one month to play out, the RS felt that Beltre and VMart were contracts that would not age well. The age of the two players they did add (A-Gon and CC) IMO made them feel they would get more good years where the salary matched the production than they were going to out of the older players.

    Still the Crawford signing is harder to explain because even with his 2010 numbers versus his slow start I question that he values out at $20M+ a season.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Trades Made & what if we could go back.....

    The Yankees wanted Crawford, not Gonzalez.

    Was keeping Crawford away from N.Y. a consideration?

    Damn right.

    Will Crawford ever be worth what he is paid?

    Of course not, they are all paid more than they are worth.

    Will the Red Sox play better ball with Crawford, Gonzalez, Salty, and Lackey than they would with 4 call ups from AAA?

    Absolutley.

    Don't judge these guys by the short term. Lackey has been hot and cold, Salty still needs to mature, Crawford is adjusting to a new team, Gonzalez looks pretty darn good to me.

    The problem here is too many people expect miracles. When you expect miracles , you will be disappointed. Because miracles do not happen. If you believe in "the law of averages" than you will understand that in the case of Carl Crawford , you are basing your opinions on a small sample of his worst. This guy can play, and will be one of the top players on this team.
     
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    Re: Trades Made & what if we could go back.....

    Crawford's money should have been put into getting a right handed power hitter to compliment Agon, not replicating the skill set of Ellsbury. But Theo, or John Henry, or somebody in management has to always prove themselves smarter than those idiots who had Yaz, Rice, and Ramirez as left field power hitters. This reminds me of Theo's closer by committee idea; 'closers are so passe, you know, my advanced stats say a committee can do it'...how'd that work out...
     
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    Re: Trades Made & what if we could go back.....

    The Brett Gardner Decision: Why the Yankees Are Right to Pass on Carl Crawford

    By (Yankees Featured Columnist) on November 30, 2010

    Having arrived to the 2010-11 offseason, Yankees fans were ready to finally swipe the left fielder of their dreams from the division-rival Rays. But Cashman has different plans for this offseason. Instead of paying Carl Crawford $16-$18 million a year to man left field for the Yanks, he is going to pay Brett Gardner just over the league minimum to do the same thing, just at a slightly lower level. This way, the Yankees have more money to throw at the man that they actually need to sign this offseason, left-handed ace Cliff Lee.

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/531158-the-
    brett-gardner-decision-why-the-yankees-are-right-to-pass-on-carl-crawford




                February 24, 2011

             Crawford: Yankees Never Contacted Me    

     
                Carl Crawford said the Yankees were never an option:
    I never talked to New York. They never offered me a contract. I never had any kind of communication with New York, so it was never an option to go to New York. Cliff Lee was their first choice. I didn't want to be somebody's backup plan. I wanted to go to a place where they wanted me just as bad as I wanted to go there.

    http://joyofsox.blogspot.com/2011/02/crawford-yankees-never-contacted-me.html

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Trades Made & what if we could go back.....

    In Response to Re: Trades Made & what if we could go back.....:
    [QUOTE]Crawford's money should have been put into getting a right handed power hitter to compliment Agon, not replicating the skill set of Ellsbury. But Theo, or John Henry, or somebody in management has to always prove themselves smarter than those idiots who had Yaz, Rice, and Ramirez as left field power hitters. This reminds me of Theo's closer by committee idea; 'closers are so passe, you know, my advanced stats say a committee can do it'...how'd that work out...
    Posted by futbal[/QUOTE]Who was that power hitter in the FA market this past winter? I personally thought Jayson Werth was a better fit than CC for the Rs based on home ballpark and the relative strength/weaknesses in the RS farm system. But once the Nationals signed Werth to a 7 year / $126M contract I had no problem with the RS not signing him.

    Or for that matter where is that power RH OF this winter?

    Outfielders

    Bobby Abreu LAA *
    Carlos Beltran NYM
    Milton Bradley SEA
    Mike Cameron BOS
    Ronny Cedeno PIT
    Michael Cuddyer MIN
    Jack Cust SEA
    David DeJesus OAK
    J.D. Drew BOS
    Jeff Francoeur KC *
    Jonny Gomes CIN
    Gabe Gross OAK
    Carlos Guillen DET
    Raul Ibanez PHI
    Conor Jackson OAK
    Jason Kubel MIN
    Ryan Ludwick SD
    Nate McLouth ATL *
    Juan Pierre CWS
    Juan Rivera TOR
    Cody Ross SF
    Grady Sizemore CLE *
    Nick Swisher NYY *
    Josh Willingham WAS


    The option was Mike Cameron and Darnell McDonald platooning with Kalish who may well be a MLB player but was well served continuing to mature in AAA in 2011. The option may not have made win now RS fans too happy because this was what was left after Werth and Crawford (players who had options exercised and CC and Werth removed):

    Outfielders

    Alfredo Amezaga LAD
    Rick Ankiel ATL *
    Rocco Baldelli TB
    Pat Burrell SF
    Frank Catalanotto FA
    Johnny Damon DET
    Jim Edmonds CIN
    Jody Gerut SD
    Jay Gibbons LAD
    Vladimir Guerrero TEX *
    Jose Guillen SF
    Bill Hall BOS
    Willie Harris WAS
    Brad Hawpe TB
    Eric Hinske ATL
    Brad Hawpe TB
    Andruw Jones CWS
    Gabe Kapler TB
    Austin Kearns NYY

    Hideki Matsui LAA
    Kevin Mench WAS
    Xavier Nady CHC
    Corey Patterson BAL
    Jay Payton COL
    Scott Podsednik LAD
    Manny Ramirez CWS
    Matt Stairs SD
    Fernando Tatis NYM
    Marcus Thames NYY
    Randy Winn STL


    Just don't see Yaz, Manny in his prime or Rice on this list.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Trades Made & what if we could go back.....

    Andruw Jones and Russell Martin would have been key acquisitions for a relatively inexpensive price tag.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from RSF4Life234. Show RSF4Life234's posts

    Re: Trades Made & what if we could go back.....

    Alibiike your using total hindsight vision here. Russel Martin was coming off a lost season and Andruw Jones is now where close the player he was even 5 years ago.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from marstan. Show marstan's posts

    Re: Trades Made & what if we could go back.....

    Sox have basically no rh power hitting, and this will hurt them.
    youkilis is basically a gap hitter and you really don't count on
    Pedroia to hit game winning hrs. for you...if you do, lotsa luck.
    The Crawford signing really was a stinko...we should have gone
    for Granderson and ate Drew's contract for the final year.
    Too bad Pujols wasn't available right after the Yanks signed
    Teixeira....that's what we need..righty power , not a lefty
    hitter like A Gon in a rf that's 380 ft. deep. What good is he
    as a lefty in a Grand Canyon right field ?
     
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    Re: Trades Made & what if we could go back.....

    Reportedly, the Red Sox made a 5 year, $82.5 million offer to Holliday before the 2010 season.  When he declined they made the same offer to Lackey.

    So if I'm playing the hindsight game my move is to give Holliday the 7 year, $120 million deal he got from St. Louis.    
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from futbal. Show futbal's posts

    Re: Trades Made & what if we could go back.....

    In Response to Re: Trades Made & what if we could go back.....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Trades Made & what if we could go back..... : Who was that power hitter in the FA market this past winter? I personally thought Jayson Werth was a better fit than CC for the Rs based on home ballpark and the relative strength/weaknesses in the RS farm system. But once the Nationals signed Werth to a 7 year / $126M contract I had no problem with the RS not signing him. Or for that matter where is that power RH OF this winter? Outfielders Bobby Abreu LAA * Carlos Beltran NYM Milton Bradley SEA Mike Cameron BOS Ronny Cedeno PIT Michael Cuddyer MIN Jack Cust SEA David DeJesus OAK J.D. Drew BOS Jeff Francoeur KC * Jonny Gomes CIN Gabe Gross OAK Carlos Guillen DET Raul Ibanez PHI Conor Jackson OAK Jason Kubel MIN Ryan Ludwick SD Nate McLouth ATL * Juan Pierre CWS Juan Rivera TOR Cody Ross SF Grady Sizemore CLE * Nick Swisher NYY * Josh Willingham WAS The option was Mike Cameron and Darnell McDonald platooning with Kalish who may well be a MLB player but was well served continuing to mature in AAA in 2011. The option may not have made win now RS fans too happy because this was what was left after Werth and Crawford (players who had options exercised and CC and Werth removed): Outfielders Alfredo Amezaga LAD Rick Ankiel ATL * Rocco Baldelli TB Pat Burrell SF Frank Catalanotto FA Johnny Damon DET Jim Edmonds CIN Jody Gerut SD Jay Gibbons LAD Vladimir Guerrero TEX * Jose Guillen SF Bill Hall BOS Willie Harris WAS Brad Hawpe TB Eric Hinske ATL Brad Hawpe TB Andruw Jones CWS Gabe Kapler TB Austin Kearns NYY Hideki Matsui LAA Kevin Mench WAS Xavier Nady CHC Corey Patterson BAL Jay Payton COL Scott Podsednik LAD Manny Ramirez CWS Matt Stairs SD Fernando Tatis NYM Marcus Thames NYY Randy Winn STL Just don't see Yaz, Manny in his prime or Rice on this list.
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    Them's slim pickins...same with last year's crop; only Vlad seemed like good value for dollar but he can't play in the field anymore (so that's not just hypothetical , it's also a moot hyothetical)...
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Trades Made & what if we could go back.....

    In Response to Trades Made & what if we could go back.....:
    [QUOTE]Long time Sox/Celtic fan although I've lived in SF Bay area past 40+ years so have had more chances to watch west coast teams. I've always liked Adrain Gonzalez, Russell Martin(Dodgers) & Eric Chavez (A's). Still love Adran Gonzalez & believe he will live up to what is expected but somehow I believe we were more interested in the Yankees not getting him and Crawford than truly analyzing their benefits, cost wise too, to our team. Monday morning quarterback I know but with Crawford & Gonzalez costing us $142 & $154 million or almost $300 mil, resigning Beltre & Martinez who went for $42 mil & $80 mil respectively albeit shorter contracts(4 years instead of 7 I think)  might not have been the worst decision. How about the long term contracts of Matsuzaka, Lackey & Drew killing us now ??? With Martinez we would not have needed Saltalamacchia & could have picked up Russell Martin as NY did for only $4 mil as catcher backup. And to back up Beltre if we didn't want to use Youkilis, we could have picked up Eric Chavez who also went to Yanks for 1.5 mil. Going after Gonzalez was OK but Crawford so far is not living up to expectations & I do realize Yankees would have gotten him if we didn't. I know Damon didn't want to come back to us when he left Yankees and he said it wasn't the money. When someone says it's not a question of money, ask the question again. I'd rather have him than Drew & Cameron and it would have been nice for him to end in Boston, a true hero in 2004 series vs. Yankees. OK, just abit despondent about our team these days so thanks for letting me let off some steam !!!
    Posted by mandobello[/QUOTE]

    I seriously doubt the Sox would commit serious money to any player simply to keep him off the Yankees.  It’s one thing to trade for short term potential free agent in July to keep him off NY.  But Gonzalez and Crawford were clearly players to Sox wanted regardless of other teams’ interest.  It makes zero sense, especially since the Sox have less resources than the Yankees and good players will always be available.  You cannot simply buy out every player the Yankees might want.

     

    As for Crawford, while I did not like the deal, I do have to say that judging a 7 year contract by the first month or so is premature.  Mark Teixeira hit .200 with a .738 OPS his first month with the Yankees.  Did that make the entire deal a bust?

     

    As much as fans cry for Beltre (.246 / .288 /.463) or Martinez (.258 / .306 / .409) as players they now suddenly want back, both would fall more into the “problem” category than the solution.  It’s not like both of them are performing any better than Gonzalez and Crawford.  Especially since Martinez is currently on the DL and Saltalamacchia would be playing anyway.  You decry Drew as a problem, but his OPS is higher than both of these players we suddenly “need” back.

     

    The Sox did go after Russell Martin, but not to the extent the Yankees did.  While I would have liked Martin, the guy was coming off a broken hip and I can see why interest in him had to be tempered down to a reasonable financial level.  Benji Molina would have been the smarter option.

     

    Chavez is mere hindsight being 20/20.  The guy hasn’t been a useful player since 2006 and hasn’t been very good since 2004.  But then these February decisions are always easier in mid-May.  And surprise, surprise – he is hurt again.  Given how injuries completely derailed 2010, why would the Sox have gone after players like Chavez and Martin?

     

    Drew, who is no longer a long term contract, has had a good career in Boston.  Two outstanding year and two bad years, averaging it out.  Damon would not be an acceptable substitute for either one, since he really is limited to LF/DH duty and Drew and Cameron play RF and CF respectively. 

     

    For all the talk about all these 2004 heroes and how nice it would be for them to end in Boston, how come two of the three we still have (Wakefield and Varitek) are constant recipients of criticism?  And certainly Ortiz has been on the receiving end of his fair share, too, just not as much so far this season…

     
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    Re: Trades Made & what if we could go back.....

    In Response to Re: Trades Made & what if we could go back.....:
    [QUOTE]Crawford's money should have been put into getting a right handed power hitter to compliment Agon, not replicating the skill set of Ellsbury. But Theo, or John Henry, or somebody in management has to always prove themselves smarter than those idiots who had Yaz, Rice, and Ramirez as left field power hitters. This reminds me of Theo's closer by committee idea; 'closers are so passe, you know, my advanced stats say a committee can do it'...how'd that work out...
    Posted by futbal[/QUOTE]

    A right-handed power bat would have been nice, but only Werth was available with a skillset and career similar to JD Drew’s, and at about the same age when Drew was signed.  But he wound up costing 50% more money for 3 more years.  Let him go to Washington.

     

    More important is the belief is stagnation.  Citing Yaz as an example in a post claiming the need for RH power seems lazy, so I will gloss over that.  Not to mention, the Red Sox had Hall of Famers in LF from 1939 to 1988 and wound up winning all of 0 World Series with them, so the mentality you preach is basically one of “This is how we always did it” and it could just as easily have the same results going forward as it did for a full half century.  In some ways, the Red Sox are trying to be ahead of the curve, much like they were with focusing on OBP, then on compensation draft picks, then on defense.  Not always the first to focus on these, but far more teams followed suit, especially after it worked.  Now the focus is on more rounded players, such as Crawford.  I imagine a significant reduction in steroid usage among MLB players might make this a more widespread tactic among other teams as well.  There just won’t be as many power hitters available.

     

    Citing the “closer by committee” as a failure is a complete revisionist mistake, especially when one ends hinting at the importance of closers.  First of all, the first place Cardinals are using a true committee now, in case no one noticed.  But more important was how false the original statement really was.  1) There was no “committee”; Chad Fox got all the save chances, and he was simply awful in the role (he did play a key part in Florida winning the World Series that year, however.) 2) The spin on using the committee was that sometimes the more important outs are in the 7th and 8th innings, which can certainly be true in many games.  3) The “committee” aka Chad Fox had the part for all of 54 games before Byung-Hyun Kim was acquired.  During that 54 game span – a full third of a season - they blew all of 3 ninth inning leads, resulting in 2 losses.  The real failure of that bullpen was in the 7th and 8th innings, where numerous leads were not held. (See point 2.) The main reason for this had nothing to do with “bullpen by committee”, but rather with the failures in building a bullpen out of mediocre and bad pitchers.  When Kim was acquired, he actually pitched very well, culminating in a September where he allowed 0 earned runs.  Some bad playoff experiences, arm troubles and unwise moves on his part did end his tenure in Boston on a sour note and a nothing trade.  THAT is how that worked out.  Any questions?

     

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