Valentine needs to be fired

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    1-I always keep an open mind, but I also always post my opinion.

    Thats not true. This situation proved it. Always keeping an open mind is something only a robot can do anyway. You were biased against Valentine from the beginning and every post about him from you reflected that bias. When I posted my opinions about Valentine I gave him credit for what he did right and criticized him for what he did wrong. I believe that I was able to keep a relatively open mind about him, but your bias showed through with each and every post you wrote about him. No manager in baseball is as bad as you make him out to be, or they would not make it to the pros.

    2-I didn't condemn him from the beginning. There is a big difference between condemning someone and pointing out their mistakes. It is not my fault that he makes mistakes on such a consistent basis that it looks like condemnation.

    Show me where you posted a few comments about what he did right. Surely he didn't make mistakes with every single decision, right? I would guess that more than half of his decisions were correct; many, as I admit, were wrong.

    3-I never called him a clo wn. I called inept, with behavior so bizzare that I questioned his executive functioning.

    Calling someone "inept" before viewing his body of work reflects bias. Better to have phrased it "in his past managerial experiences in my opinion he was inept, but I will withold judgement until I see what he does here". You judged him first then used examples to support that bias.

    4-At the end of the day, it boils down to I was right and you were wrong. But that doesn't matter. What does matter was the early recognition of his continuing problems. They were so so obvious, and yet so many posters stood tethered to the BV bus.

    I admit that its looking more and more that those who felt that Valentine was not a good choice were correct in their assessment. But you are missing the point. Better to see what a person can do on the job THEN judge him than the reverse.

    That is really what I don't understand. How is it that he could make so many mistakes, and none of his supporters could bring themselves to recognize it? Just on his very first two mistakes-

    Did you really think telling the press that Doubront had no out pitch was a good idea?

    When he complained to the press in ST that Bard wasn't throwing enough changeups, did it not occur to you to think that might be the manager's responsibility?

    When he didn't know who was pitching against us, did that not strike you as bizarre?

    That is what gets me. I have no idea why his supporters wouldn't question these things?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    Valentine did have some success with the Mets. He is a major league caliber manager with a lot of managing years under his belt. His knowledge of the game is widely respected in baseball circles, from what I read, and he comes with a personality that leaves something to be desired. He was worth a shot IMO. He may still be worth a shot for next year.
    Guess its just me, but I give people a chance to do their job before I decide they are incompetent. Many people here failed to do that. And especially given the team he was handed, that IS unfair.



    That's exactly why I think Cherington deserves a chance.  I think he was limited financially in his offseason moves.  If he was instrumental in the Dodger trade, that's a great move.  Now he gets a chance to show what he can do to build a good team. 

     



    His biggest move was to take advantage of almost a unique opportunity to get rid of CC's contract.  Past that, it is difficult to judge him on anything.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    That's exactly why I think Cherington deserves a chance. I think he was limited financially in his offseason moves. If he was instrumental in the Dodger trade, that's a great move. Now he gets a chance to show what he can do to build a good team.

    Thats a reasonable approach. I am very leery of Cherington: he was trained by the guy who screwed over the franchise for years to come. If he fails it will be that many more years before the Red Sox are relevant again. My preference is a fresh start: no vestiges of that administration at all. So I guess you could say that my opinion is that Cherington is not the right man for the job, but that I am willing to give him a shot at it and that I will not judge him until I see what he can do.  
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    Thats not true. This situation proved it. Always keeping an open mind is something only a robot can do anyway. You were biased against Valentine from the beginning and every post about him from you reflected that bias. When I posted my opinions about Valentine I gave him credit for what he did right and criticized him for what he did wrong. I believe that I was able to keep a relatively open mind about him, but your bias showed through with each and every post you wrote about him. No manager in baseball is as bad as you make him out to be, or they would not make it to the pros.  

    I gave him credit for his BP work, while allowing that we had to see if the BP would burn out.  I gave him credit in individual games.  I gave him credit for not bunting a couple of times.

    But let's face the facts.  This will be our second worst season in the past 45 years.  If you're looking for examples of where he did a good job, it ain't there.  So yes, he is that bad.  Perhaps Mills was worse this year, but that's about it.  I doubt he'll ever get another job in MLB.

    Calling someone "inept" before viewing his body of work reflects bias. Better to have phrased it "in his past managerial experiences in my opinion he was inept, but I will withold judgement until I see what he does here". You judged him first then used examples to support that bias.  

    I saw his work this year.  It was inept.  If you want me to be politically correct, and refer to him as managerially-challenged, you've come to the wrong person.

    I admit that its looking more and more that those who felt that Valentine was not a good choice were correct in their assessment. But you are missing the point. Better to see what a person can do on the job THEN judge him than the reverse.  

    I don't mind waiting, but we can't just ignore failure.  When it was becoming painfully obvious that Minaya was inept, the NYM management stood by while he destroyed the franchise.  Same with Bowden and Bavasi destroying the Nats and the M's.  If this was the guy I wanted, Alomar, of course I would've waited longer.  But if your roofer is leaving holes in the roof that you can see from the attic, you don't sit by idly.  You don't sit in a cab with a drunk driver waiting to see if he can do the job.

    There are times to be patient.  This wasn't one of them.  He did a bad job starting with spring training.  He was going on about how some team lost a chance to possibly win a WS because they didn't execute a slash play.  So he has the pitchers practicing bunting.  The average AL team gets between 2-3 sacs per year from their pitchers.  It is not something you put into your practice schedule.  It was like his brain was stuck in another time zone.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Motown9009. Show Motown9009's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    Valentine did have some success with the Mets. He is a major league caliber manager with a lot of managing years under his belt. His knowledge of the game is widely respected in baseball circles, from what I read, and he comes with a personality that leaves something to be desired. He was worth a shot IMO. He may still be worth a shot for next year.
    Guess its just me, but I give people a chance to do their job before I decide they are incompetent. Many people here failed to do that. And especially given the team he was handed, that IS unfair.



    That's exactly why I think Cherington deserves a chance.  I think he was limited financially in his offseason moves.  If he was instrumental in the Dodger trade, that's a great move.  Now he gets a chance to show what he can do to build a good team. 

     



    The Dodgers trade had more to do with the Dodgers willingness/ability to do it than the Cherington making it happen. Everyone knew they had some bad contracts. Everyone wanted them gone, anyone would've given them away if they could...he just happened to catch the Dodgers at a time when they came into a ton of money and were willing to spend it to get the one player they really wanted. Good for him for getting something in return but it doesn't take a great deal of baseball smarts to give away bad contracts to a team willing to take them...

    The moves he made in the offseason that were attempts to improve the team haven't worked out at all. He was fleeced on both of them....I'll have patience with him now that he has the flexibility to make moves but based on what he's done so far I'm not hopeful.


     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from antibody. Show antibody's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    Happy Labor Day, Hill.

    "Solidarity Forever."
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    But let's face the facts. This will be our second worst season in the past 45 years. If you're looking for examples of where he did a good job, it ain't there. So yes, he is that bad.

    Blaming Valentine for much of the failure this year is absurd. I don't recall him ever starting a game or even throwing a single pitch. Its our pitching that did us in this year, primarily, no matter what you think about Valentine. And there were more examples of good decisions on his part than you give him credit for-because you don't think they were good decisions (in your opinion). Guess he was right about Bard staying in the pen, eh? When the games mattered he utilized more of his offensive arsenal (bunts, hit and runs, pinch hitters etc) than Tito ever did. And the bullpen he fashioned after losing Bailey did very well for a long time. He was forced to overuse it sometimes, when the games meant something, because our SP absolutely stunk all year long. Thats not his fault; he was trying to win games. He did a lot of good things, but too many bad things. I have problems with some of his comments to the press too, though in fairness, they were not unexpected. And more importantly, I had problems with his in-game tactics at times.
    Bottom line: Valentine played a tiny role in this horrendous season. There is no manager on earth that could have morphed this team into a playoff contender, not with this SP staff.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    We live in a scape goat society.....we always look at the top for someone to blame when in reality the problem is much more complex.  This doesn't come without saying maybe bobby should go, but I think the reality is he never stood a chance.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    We live in a scape goat society.....we always look at the top for someone to blame when in reality the problem is much more complex.  This doesn't come without saying maybe bobby should go, but I think the reality is he never stood a chance.



    It isn't about society, although you are correct that we do.  Managers get paid to get their team to meet or exceed expectations.  If you do that you keep your job.  If you don't you lose your job.

    This happens to managers at Subway, not just ML baseball.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    "This happens to managers at Subway, not just ML baseball."

    I'm not sure Bobby V could manage a Subway....
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    I'm fascinated by the number of people still defending BV when he lost his clubhouse, his dugout, whatever lousy relationship he had with the FO, he lost what ever respect he might have had from the media at the outset of the year. I'm not saying that a few also defended Tito to be consistent, but the majority of people who free pass BV were the same ones calling for Tito's head on a stick last September. It was tantamount to beheading the Queen. BV could lose every single game the rest of the season with a team of youngsters that are more lethargic than any of the previous "FatCat" players who were dealt/jettisoned, and it still won't matter. It's like you are all ignoring the 7,000 things that he's done ineptly as manager. I have to keep reminding people that he batted Dan Nava leadoff, second and third on consecutive nights...all at different postions, all when Nava was a trainwreck at the plate. JB reminds people of the Doubront quotes. How many things do we have to show as examples of BV losing it and losing control of his dugout. Just the Aceves-Pedroia argument the other night was another example of BV having no control. How can you possibly still say BV is a quality MLB manager. He's not. He's done. He's toast. And he will go down as one of the worst Sox managers in their history with one of the worst records by a Sox team going back to the early 1960s. 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    I think anybody would have lost this club house.....the problems run much more deep than one man and I think the people who are defending bobby v aren't necessarily making the case for him to be around next year rather pointing out that this team would likely be right where it is now with or withouit him.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    ct, that's speculation. see that's what I'm talking about. Making wild analysis based on the "situation," but not taking into account how much the players were cornered between the media/fan backlash and a manager who simply does not have the players backs--based on as I've many times written numerous examples of saying things and doing things that a MLB manager should not be doing. They went from one extreme to the other--and that's LL, all LL. We still don't know about a change of environment with a guy who was not a decade removed from MLB managing. All I've been asking for his anyone with a coaching background even in the last 5 seasons. I'd take Jerry Royster as an interim GM, and BV hired him. So that just shows you how much I'd like to see the youngsters get at least another leadership guy. Most of those youngsters only know BV, and that could ruin them for year to come.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    interim manager, not GM on Royster. BC also has to take blame for his many mistakes, but he obviously attempted to right some previous wrongs.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from harv53. Show harv53's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    I think anybody would have lost this club house.....the problems run much more deep than one man and I think the people who are defending bobby v aren't necessarily making the case for him to be around next year rather pointing out that this team would likely be right where it is now with or withouit him.



    See, this is a reasonable post. You can see forest behind the trees, but some of these guys, DC, JB, Notin, and others, only see what they want to see. They don't evaluate eveything from the start. They discount the fact that the coaching staff was divided from the start by keeping some of the Francona hires, which is probably the main contributing factor to the Sox demise.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drywells. Show Drywells's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    SHAFT.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    In response to dannycater's comment:

    I'm fascinated by the number of people still defending BV when he lost his clubhouse, his dugout, whatever lousy relationship he had with the FO, he lost what ever respect he might have had from the media at the outset of the year. I'm not saying that a few also defended Tito to be consistent, but the majority of people who free pass BV were the same ones calling for Tito's head on a stick last September. It was tantamount to beheading the Queen. BV could lose every single game the rest of the season with a team of youngsters that are more lethargic than any of the previous "FatCat" players who were dealt/jettisoned, and it still won't matter. It's like you are all ignoring the 7,000 things that he's done ineptly as manager. I have to keep reminding people that he batted Dan Nava leadoff, second and third on consecutive nights...all at different postions, all when Nava was a trainwreck at the plate. JB reminds people of the Doubront quotes. How many things do we have to show as examples of BV losing it and losing control of his dugout. Just the Aceves-Pedroia argument the other night was another example of BV having no control. How can you possibly still say BV is a quality MLB manager. He's not. He's done. He's toast. And he will go down as one of the worst Sox managers in their history with one of the worst records by a Sox team going back to the early 1960s. 




    When a person spends two years howling about how Francona needs to be fired and their personal favorite comes in and performs in embarrassingly poor fashion, it's a tough nut to swallow


     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    I think anybody would have lost this club house.....the problems run much more deep than one man and I think the people who are defending bobby v aren't necessarily making the case for him to be around next year rather pointing out that this team would likely be right where it is now with or withouit him.

    See, this is a reasonable post. You can see forest behind the trees, but some of these guys, DC, JB, Notin, and others, only see what they want to see. They don't evaluate eveything from the start. They discount the fact that the coaching staff was divided from the start by keeping some of the Francona hires, which is probably the main contributing factor to the Sox demise.

    I agree with you Harv....with or without Valentine this team would be just about right where it is now-horrible. I would say that 90% of the problem this year is the PITCHING; the other 10% is divided amongst injuries, attitude AND Valentine's tactical errors and mistakes he made with the press. Valentine isn't getting a free pass from me, nor am I going to blame him for the "state of the state" of RSN. I gave him a chance to do the job, in my own mind, and he has been disappointing.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    There was/is so much venom still at Francona by so many fans on this board. It's astounding how much grief he receives here in comparison to Bobby Valentine, who has not only proven he's a far worse manager, but certainly A FAR WORSE PERSON.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from michaelsjr. Show michaelsjr's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    For those of you who keep insisting Valentine "had his chance"..I keep wondering when anybody ever thought he was given or allowed managerial control.  The more of the comments I read in the media articles lately - especially by BV himself, the more I am convinced the team has been micro-managed from FO and BV is more or less manager in name only.  He's been hamstrung all year 6 ways from Sunday.  This season has been no indication whatsoever of what he could have done under even decent circumstances.    But everybody wants him run out of town before he is even given a fair chance.  Boston will be viewed as somewhere not only good players avoid, but managers as well.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from J-BAY. Show J-BAY's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    I think anybody would have lost this club house.....the problems run much more deep than one man and I think the people who are defending bobby v aren't necessarily making the case for him to be around next year rather pointing out that this team would likely be right where it is now with or withouit him.

    See, this is a reasonable post. You can see forest behind the trees, but some of these guys, DC, JB, Notin, and others, only see what they want to see. They don't evaluate eveything from the start. They discount the fact that the coaching staff was divided from the start by keeping some of the Francona hires, which is probably the main contributing factor to the Sox demise.

    I agree with you Harv....with or without Valentine this team would be just about right where it is now-horrible. I would say that 90% of the problem this year is the PITCHING; the other 10% is divided amongst injuries, attitude AND Valentine's tactical errors and mistakes he made with the press. Valentine isn't getting a free pass from me, nor am I going to blame him for the "state of the state" of RSN. I gave him a chance to do the job, in my own mind, and he has been disappointing.



    May be pumsie, even most likely but the clubhouse, media and player relations would be better without Valentine,IMO. Each interview gets more bizarre. His sarcasm boarders on nasty, at times. The interview he did on ESPN with Michael Kay on Friday sounded like a guy who just escaped from Bellview. He's one weird guy.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    There was/is so much venom still at Francona by so many fans on this board. It's astounding how much grief he receives here in comparison to Bobby Valentine, who has not only proven he's a far worse manager, but certainly A FAR WORSE PERSON.

    Over the line Cater. Unless you know Valentine personally you have no right to judge him as a person. From what I hear he is very active in charitable activities. Are you?
    Your post is idiotic.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    May be pumsie, even most likely but the clubhouse, media and player relations would be better without Valentine,IMO. Each interview gets more bizarre. His sarcasm boarders on nasty, at times. The interview he did on ESPN with Michael Kay on Friday sounded like a guy who just escaped from Bellview. He's one weird guy.

    Fair enough JBay. I do not recall you as being someone who was on Valentine's case from day 1, like Cater and Breidey were. You gave him a chance, and in your opinion he has failed. Thats all Valentine can expect from anyone.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    In response to michaelsjr's comment:

    For those of you who keep insisting Valentine "had his chance"..I keep wondering when anybody ever thought he was given or allowed managerial control.  The more of the comments I read in the media articles lately - especially by BV himself, the more I am convinced the team has been micro-managed from FO and BV is more or less manager in name only.  He's been hamstrung all year 6 ways from Sunday.  This season has been no indication whatsoever of what he could have done under even decent circumstances.    But everybody wants him run out of town before he is even given a fair chance.  Boston will be viewed as somewhere not only good players avoid, but managers as well.



    With apologies to JoeB, I'm "borrowing" his list;

    1-Announcing that Doubront had no out pitch.  Can someone explain what he hoped to accomplish with that?  Break the kid's confidence?  Gut his trade value?

    2-Announcing that Bard wasn't throwing enough changeups in ST.  Probably about 95% of the world was wondering who was it that was supposed to tell Bard to throw more changeups?  Wasn't that the manager's job?  Couldn't BV had simply pulled Bard and the catcher aside after the first inning and told them how many changeups he wanted each inning?

    Then the regular season started.

    1-In the very first game, he chose to pitch to future HOF Fielder with a guy on 3rd and one out, rather than load the bases for future journeyman Young.

    2-In a key early series v TB, Bard loads the bases in the 7th with a walk, single, and walk (a 4-pitch walk).  Not only does he leave Bard in, the only guys warming up in the BP were Albers and Thomas.  Even Longoria criticized the move, saying he was surprised to see Bard stay in.  I don't remember an opposing player ever questioning a manager's move.  Not surprisingly, Bard walked in the winning run on 4 pitches.

    Then, in a move I have only seen once in 45 years of following BB, Valentine didn't know who was pitching for the other team.  And this is how bad it was.  I questioned the lineup on another site.  I said it almost looked like Valentine didn't know that Hendricks was a righty.  Two hours later, the lineup was changed.  

    A manager has to have a hypothetical lineup posted a week in advance.  How else do you know how to give guys days off, take advantage of matchups, etc?  You should know every matchup for every opposing pitcher that you are facing 7 days in advance.

    I'll add;

    Having Aceves pitch almost 150 pitches in the space of three games and costing the Sox a game by running Aceves out for a 6 out close attempt.

    Showing up for a game in Oakland after his players.


    Help me out. Which of these gaffs were the result of the FO micro-managing Bobby V?


     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from J-BAY. Show J-BAY's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    May be pumsie, even most likely but the clubhouse, media and player relations would be better without Valentine,IMO. Each interview gets more bizarre. His sarcasm boarders on nasty, at times. The interview he did on ESPN with Michael Kay on Friday sounded like a guy who just escaped from Bellview. He's one weird guy.

    Fair enough JBay. I do not recall you as being someone who was on Valentine's case from day 1, like Cater and Breidey were. You gave him a chance, and in your opinion he has failed. Thats all Valentine can expect from anyone.



    Honestly, pumpsie I never liked the hire from day one. As JB, I watched how he handled the media and players, while with the Mets. I hoped I was wrong, went into ST with an open mind, and BV had changed in the 10 years since, but no such luck. While he may have a good mind for baseball, he doesn't for people. In Boston, you need both.
     
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