Valentine needs to be fired

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    In response to dannycater's comment:

    It sounds like I scare simple-minds when I post things 3 to 4 months in advance and they just go to pieces when they realize I'm right.



    No one likes to be reminded that they were wrong.  Particularly when it is an epic failure.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    Joe, I want to also apologize if I ever offended you back in the past. You were way out in front on this BV thing and were more outspoken about BV early on than I was. You're a good Sox fan and we just care about winning, and that's why these BV threads need to be written. Too many people put their heads in the sand. It's Ostrichville in Boston when it comes to manager, GM and President.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    In response to dannycater's comment:

    Joe, I want to also apologize if I ever offended you back in the past. You were way out in front on this BV thing and were more outspoken about BV early on than I was. You're a good Sox fan and we just care about winning, and that's why these BV threads need to be written. Too many people put their heads in the sand. It's Ostrichville in Boston when it comes to manager, GM and President.



    I don't take offense at anything.  I tend to be on the side of being overly analytical.

    IRT BV, it wasn't quite rocket science to anticipate failure.  Even in spring training, two things stood out like a sore thumb.

    1-Announcing that Doubront had no out pitch.  Can someone explain what he hoped to accomplish with that?  Break the kid's confidence?  Gut his trade value?

    2-Announcing that Bard wasn't throwing enough changeups in ST.  Probably about 95% of the world was wondering who was it that was supposed to tell Bard to throw more changeups?  Wasn't that the manager's job?  Couldn't BV had simply pulled Bard and the catcher aside after the first inning and told them how many changeups he wanted each inning?

    Then the regular season started.

    1-In the very first game, he chose to pitch to future HOF Fielder with a guy on 3rd and one out, rather than load the bases for future journeyman Young.

    2-In a key early series v TB, Bard loads the bases in the 7th with a walk, single, and walk (a 4-pitch walk).  Not only does he leave Bard in, the only guys warming up in the BP were Albers and Thomas.  Even Longoria criticized the move, saying he was surprised to see Bard stay in.  I don't remember an opposing player ever questioning a manager's move.  Not surprisingly, Bard walked in the winning run on 4 pitches.

    Then, in a move I have only seen once in 45 years of following BB, Valentine didn't know who was pitching for the other team.  And this is how bad it was.  I questioned the lineup on another site.  I said it almost looked like Valentine didn't know that Hendricks was a righty.  Two hours later, the lineup was changed.  

    A manager has to have a hypothetical lineup posted a week in advance.  How else do you know how to give guys days off, take advantage of matchups, etc?  You should know every matchup for every opposing pitcher that you are facing 7 days in advance.

    Once you get to the point where you don't know who you are playing against, it's over.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    Not everything in the world is grey. Somethings are black and white. I started watching the RS in 1967. That was 45 years ago. This will be our 2nd worst record in those 45 years. Sure there have been injuries, but no more than 2006 and 2010, and maybe not more than 2011. BV has not only lost the clubhouse, is not only hated by virtually everyone in the organization, he's been a terrible field manager.

    He is the single worst manager in baseball. It is okay to let go. We'll get someone that will get the players' respect, that will know how to say more than a few words without starting a fight, omeone that will know which arm the opposing pitcher throws with.

    I will agree only that he has not been the field manager I had hoped for. Do you have evidence that he is "hated by everyone in the organization"? I remember lots of quotes by Ortiz, Pedroia, Ross etc that support Valentine as being someone they enjoy working with. The fact that this team stinks this year is directly related to the starting pitching, particularly Beckett and Lester. They were expected to be aces of sorts; they turned out to be azzes. Had they performed as expected there would be no discussion about what kind of manager Valentine is except by those individuals who were biased against him from the outset. Some of us waited to see what kind of job he did before passing judgement; that seems a much more balanced approach in contrast to deciding in advance that he stinks as a manager. Had they hired him as a rocket scientist then its not a grey area; he is no rocket scientist. Unless you have data to prove that he has never had any success as a manager (and you don't because he has had some measure of success-such as in 99 and 2000 with the Mets) then this is simply NOT a black and white issue. Its just one that is black and white in YOUR opinion.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    Make that Henry and Cherington.



    Not LL?  I've been at these meetings before.  It's always more important to see who is not at the meeting than who is at the meeting.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    If LL is not at the meeting maybe he is being removed from baseball ops. In that situation I have no problem with firing Valentine as part of a general housecleaning. It must also include Cherington, eventually.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    I WAS on the side of giving the guy his last year and his own coaching staff, but the last couple days has changed my mind. He looks to not care anymore and basically has checked out. This is a time when you really see what men are made of and their charactor. BV has proved that he has none with his "whatever" and "does it really matter" attitude now. Hes quit in his mind already IMO, or he already knows hes a gonner. Bottom line,  I hope to see Bogar at the helm when this team returns home this week...
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    The difference is that you gave him a shot at the job; Breidey didn't. He judged him before the season started, as did Cater, Kimmi, and others. Thats unfair. I agree with Trotter: a new GM is needed and he should pick the manager he would like to work for him. Valentine has been a disappointment for me too.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    Some of us waited to see what kind of job he did before passing judgement; that seems a much more balanced approach in contrast to deciding in advance that he stinks as a manager. 

    I waited.

    When he said Bard wasn't throwing enough changeups, I pointed out that Valentine's job was to manage the players, which includes telling guys like Bard how many changeups to throw.

    When he told the world that Doubront had no out pitch, I questioned why he would say that.

    When he picked a fight with Youkilis after we had taken the first 3 games from TB, games in which Youk had played well, I questioned why he would do such a thing.

    When he chose to pitch to Fielder instead of Young, I questioned it.

    When he allowed Bard to stay in against Longoria, it was actually Longoria that questioned it.

    When, in the highest leverage point in the season, the only guy he had warming up were Albers and Thomas, it was actually Fangraphs that questioned it.

    When he had Aviles bunt against Blackburn, a guy he absolutely owned, I questioned it.

    When he didn't know which pitcher we were facing, that's when I decided he had to go.  It's the equivalent of Greece withdrawing from the Euro and your chief currency trader not realizing it.  At that point, it should have been obvious to everyone that Valentine shouldn't be managing.  There is just no way around it.

    Everything else is just a continuation.

    All the fights that he picked after that were a continuation of fights he picked in ST.

    Not realizing that the HR at Fenway wasn't really a HR, was a result of him not paying any attention, and was a continuation of the issue with Hendriks.

    That fact that I recognized these things early on, as did others, and the fact that we were 100% correct, doesn't make us wrong.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    The difference is that you gave him a shot at the job; Breidey didn't. He judged him before the season started, as did Cater, Kimmi, and others. Thats unfair. I agree with Trotter: a new GM is needed and he should pick the manager he would like to work for him. Valentine has been a disappointment for me too.



    Basically, you're blaming us for being right.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    The difference is that you gave him a shot at the job; Breidey didn't. He judged him before the season started, as did Cater, Kimmi, and others. Thats unfair. I agree with Trotter: a new GM is needed and he should pick the manager he would like to work for him. Valentine has been a disappointment for me too.



    It isn't unfair if one is correct.  There was a big body of work with Valentine out there.  I thought that he was a snarky, arrogant blowhard whose personality would cause the team to hate him.

    I was right.  What is unfair about that?  I thought the Crawford signing made sense.  I was wrong.

    There is nothing unfair about having an opinion and sticking with it until it is either proven or disproven.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    I think the thing that also gets under my skin at times is when posters go out of their way to tell you that you're biased/hateful, whatever, yet when it comes to the actual points say I'm making, or Joe is making, or snake is making, they can't refute them. "you didn't give him a chance! wah!"...come on, now, I surely did. Within a month-and-a-half after the season started, two things were painfully clear--1. the Sox players were not performing, 2. Twice BV halted a mini win streak with his momentum changing quotes about Youkilis (after 3 straight wins no less) and then the Middlebrooks stuff, then the CC injury circus, then his quote about why free agents don't want to sign here cuz of "noise," then the famous Nava batting leadoff, second, and third in consecutive games all at different spots--LF, DH, RF...all this happening with Posednik in the minors (BC's call) and Nava in an 8-for-73 tailspin. Then the I don't care who is pitching in KC rant, then the the facetious Podsednik hitting 3rd quote, then the Aceves is not a ballplayer callout to embarrass him in comparison to a real ballplayer--Pedroia. He has mailed it in, and expect at least as low as a7-20 probably worse month in Sept. It's the Fatcats fault first, then the kids fault. BV is beyond being criticized by the FO or the fans here. He's been given an all-time free pass by some people, who really don't understand that managing also requires a bedside, players backing manner. The team had a terrible month that last Tito month, but people forget that sometimes a team goes through these stretches and you have no control over it. The Phillies fell apart after having a great season in 64, the Sox fell apart (then came back) in 78, the Angels went to pieces on a final weekend way back. Collapses happen, and they don't always end with the manager being fired immediately.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    For 130 games last year, some people thought the Sox were the best team in baseball. For no games this season, people thought the Sox were a playoff contender.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired



    Some of us waited to see what kind of job he did before passing judgement; that seems a much more balanced approach in contrast to deciding in advance that he stinks as a manager.

    I waited.

    When he said Bard wasn't throwing enough changeups, I pointed out that Valentine's job was to manage the players, which includes telling guys like Bard how many changeups to throw.

    When he told the world that Doubront had no out pitch, I questioned why he would say that.

    When he picked a fight with Youkilis after we had taken the first 3 games from TB, games in which Youk had played well, I questioned why he would do such a thing.

    When he chose to pitch to Fielder instead of Young, I questioned it.

    When he allowed Bard to stay in against Longoria, it was actually Longoria that questioned it.

    When, in the highest leverage point in the season, the only guy he had warming up were Albers and Thomas, it was actually Fangraphs that questioned it.

    When he had Aviles bunt against Blackburn, a guy he absolutely owned, I questioned it.

    When he didn't know which pitcher we were facing, that's when I decided he had to go. It's the equivalent of Greece withdrawing from the Euro and your chief currency trader not realizing it. At that point, it should have been obvious to everyone that Valentine shouldn't be managing. There is just no way around it.

    Everything else is just a continuation.

    All the fights that he picked after that were a continuation of fights he picked in ST.

    Not realizing that the HR at Fenway wasn't really a HR, was a result of him not paying any attention, and was a continuation of the issue with Hendriks.

    That fact that I recognized these things early on, as did others, and the fact that we were 100% correct, doesn't make us wrong.

    He has made mistakes this year. No doubt about it. However, you and Cater never once posted that while you would have preferred someone else (not to mention WHO else) you were going to keep an open mind about his performance and judge it on its own merits. You two condemned him from nearly the beginning. You in particular participate in a forum where he was called a "clown" before he was even hired. There is a clear difference between judging Valentine before he started the job and after he has had a chance to do it, based on the body of his work. Furthermore, I will tell you again that there would be no talk about Valentine had Beckett and Lester done their jobs. Valentine wasn't even allowed to choose his own coaching staff. Who else does that? So while he hasn't done the job I had hoped for, to be fair, he was never given the tools with which to do it.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    It isn't unfair if one is correct. There was a big body of work with Valentine out there. I thought that he was a snarky, arrogant blowhard whose personality would cause the team to hate him.

    I was right. What is unfair about that? I thought the Crawford signing made sense. I was wrong.

    There is nothing unfair about having an opinion and sticking with it until it is either proven or disproven.

    Valentine did have some success with the Mets. He is a major league caliber manager with a lot of managing years under his belt. His knowledge of the game is widely respected in baseball circles, from what I read, and he comes with a personality that leaves something to be desired. He was worth a shot IMO. He may still be worth a shot for next year.
    Guess its just me, but I give people a chance to do their job before I decide they are incompetent. Many people here failed to do that. And especially given the team he was handed, that IS unfair.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    It isn't unfair if one is correct. There was a big body of work with Valentine out there. I thought that he was a snarky, arrogant blowhard whose personality would cause the team to hate him.

    I was right. What is unfair about that? I thought the Crawford signing made sense. I was wrong.

    There is nothing unfair about having an opinion and sticking with it until it is either proven or disproven.

    Valentine did have some success with the Mets. He is a major league caliber manager with a lot of managing years under his belt. His knowledge of the game is widely respected in baseball circles, from what I read, and he comes with a personality that leaves something to be desired. He was worth a shot IMO. He may still be worth a shot for next year.
    Guess its just me, but I give people a chance to do their job before I decide they are incompetent. Many people here failed to do that. And especially given the team he was handed, that IS unfair.



    It has nothing to do with fair or unfair.  I don't like the guy.  I don't like him based on what I have seen of him prior.  

    To me he appears, and always has appeared, detached,  fraudulent and insincere.  I did not think he was a good guy to manage the team.  I was correct.

    I don't know why that would cause me to have to defend myself.  I was amazed in Spring training how many people felt that Bobby V was the right man for the job.

    When they brought up Pedrioa way back when and he struggled I thought they should send him back down,  I didn't think Reddick was any good.  I am not a know it all.

    But I was right about Bobby V and there is no reason for me to be ashamed of that.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    It isn't unfair if one is correct. There was a big body of work with Valentine out there. I thought that he was a snarky, arrogant blowhard whose personality would cause the team to hate him.

    I was right. What is unfair about that? I thought the Crawford signing made sense. I was wrong.

    There is nothing unfair about having an opinion and sticking with it until it is either proven or disproven.

    Valentine did have some success with the Mets. He is a major league caliber manager with a lot of managing years under his belt. His knowledge of the game is widely respected in baseball circles, from what I read, and he comes with a personality that leaves something to be desired. He was worth a shot IMO. He may still be worth a shot for next year.
    Guess its just me, but I give people a chance to do their job before I decide they are incompetent. Many people here failed to do that. And especially given the team he was handed, that IS unfair.



    It has nothing to do with fair or unfair.  I don't like the guy.  I don't like him based on what I have seen of him prior.  

    To me he appears, and always has appeared, detached,  fraudulent and insincere.  I did not think he was a good guy to manage the team.  I was correct.

    I don't know why that would cause me to have to defend myself.  I was amazed in Spring training how many people felt that Bobby V was the right man for the job.

    When they brought up Pedrioa way back when and he struggled I thought they should send him back down,  I didn't think Reddick was any good.  I am not a know it all.

    But I was right about Bobby V and there is no reason for me to be ashamed of that.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    Jerry Royster was brought in by BV as was Niemann early on...

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]



    Some of us waited to see what kind of job he did before passing judgement; that seems a much more balanced approach in contrast to deciding in advance that he stinks as a manager.

    I waited.

    When he said Bard wasn't throwing enough changeups, I pointed out that Valentine's job was to manage the players, which includes telling guys like Bard how many changeups to throw.

    When he told the world that Doubront had no out pitch, I questioned why he would say that.

    When he picked a fight with Youkilis after we had taken the first 3 games from TB, games in which Youk had played well, I questioned why he would do such a thing.

    When he chose to pitch to Fielder instead of Young, I questioned it.

    When he allowed Bard to stay in against Longoria, it was actually Longoria that questioned it.

    When, in the highest leverage point in the season, the only guy he had warming up were Albers and Thomas, it was actually Fangraphs that questioned it.

    When he had Aviles bunt against Blackburn, a guy he absolutely owned, I questioned it.

    When he didn't know which pitcher we were facing, that's when I decided he had to go. It's the equivalent of Greece withdrawing from the Euro and your chief currency trader not realizing it. At that point, it should have been obvious to everyone that Valentine shouldn't be managing. There is just no way around it.

    Everything else is just a continuation.

    All the fights that he picked after that were a continuation of fights he picked in ST.

    Not realizing that the HR at Fenway wasn't really a HR, was a result of him not paying any attention, and was a continuation of the issue with Hendriks.

    That fact that I recognized these things early on, as did others, and the fact that we were 100% correct, doesn't make us wrong.

    He has made mistakes this year. No doubt about it. However, you and Cater never once posted that while you would have preferred someone else (not to mention WHO else) you were going to keep an open mind about his performance and judge it on its own merits. You two condemned him from nearly the beginning. You in particular participate in a forum where he was called a "clown" before he was even hired. There is a clear difference between judging Valentine before he started the job and after he has had a chance to do it, based on the body of his work. Furthermore, I will tell you again that there would be no talk about Valentine had Beckett and Lester done their jobs. Valentine wasn't even allowed to choose his own coaching staff. Who else does that? So while he hasn't done the job I had hoped for, to be fair, he was never given the tools with which to do it.

     

    [/QUOTE]

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    It has nothing to do with fair or unfair. I don't like the guy. I don't like him based on what I have seen of him prior.

    To me he appears, and always has appeared, detached, fraudulent and insincere. I did not think he was a good guy to manage the team. I was correct.

    I don't know why that would cause me to have to defend myself. I was amazed in Spring training how many people felt that Bobby V was the right man for the job.

    When they brought up Pedrioa way back when and he struggled I thought they should send him back down, I didn't think Reddick was any good. I am not a know it all.

    Can you honestly say that you were willing to give him a shot despite your misgivings-that you would be willing to withold judgement until you saw what kind of job he did? Some here were all over him from the beginning; nothing Valentine did was right. IMO its preferable to take an approach that while you believe that someone else should have been hired (and no one here is naming that individual, by the way), judgement will be suspended until you see the results. I thought he was the right man for the job, but he has disappointed me. That conclusion was based on the job he did during the season, not based on his reputation. You tell me which approach is the more fair.

    But I was right about Bobby V and there is no reason for me to be ashamed of that.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    Jerry Royster was brought in by BV as was Niemann early on...

    Thats two. What about the other four? Who chose them? I have never heard of anyone but the manager choosing his own coaches. He was also told that Bard was a SP against his desires. He was handed a SP staff that stunk and continues to stink. Its pretty easy to blame the manager for the horrendous season we are having (and I am not denying his role in it), but the fact is that he has not had much to do with it-some, but not much. The deck was stacked against him from the beginning.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    It has nothing to do with fair or unfair. I don't like the guy. I don't like him based on what I have seen of him prior.

    To me he appears, and always has appeared, detached, fraudulent and insincere. I did not think he was a good guy to manage the team. I was correct.

    I don't know why that would cause me to have to defend myself. I was amazed in Spring training how many people felt that Bobby V was the right man for the job.

    When they brought up Pedrioa way back when and he struggled I thought they should send him back down, I didn't think Reddick was any good. I am not a know it all.

    Can you honestly say that you were willing to give him a shot despite your misgivings-that you would be willing to withold judgement until you saw what kind of job he did? Some here were all over him from the beginning; nothing Valentine did was right. IMO its preferable to take an approach that while you believe that someone else should have been hired (and no one here is naming that individual, by the way), judgement will be suspended until you see the results. I thought he was the right man for the job, but he has disappointed me. That conclusion was based on the job he did during the season, not based on his reputation. You tell me which approach is the more fair.

    But I was right about Bobby V and there is no reason for me to be ashamed of that.



    I am actually quite confused by this whole conversation.  It is all just subjective.  I don't think Bobby V is a good manager..  That is neither fair nor unfair.  It is a opinion.  If the team won this year, I would have said to myself, and others that I was incorrect about Bobby V.

    I think Kalish will be good, I don't think Iggy will be good.  Again, neither fair nor unfair, just a subjective opinion.   When people tell me they don't like Kalish I do not think them "unfair" to him, I think that they have a different opinion.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    I am actually quite confused by this whole conversation. It is all just subjective. I don't think Bobby V is a good manager.. That is neither fair nor unfair. It is a opinion. If the team won this year, I would have said to myself, and others that I was incorrect about Bobby V.

    I think Kalish will be good, I don't think Iggy will be good. Again, neither fair nor unfair, just a subjective opinion. When people tell me they don't like Kalish I do not think them "unfair" to him, I think that they have a different opinion.

    Here is what I see as the difference between the two camps: some opined that he was a rotten choice from the beginning and never added "but I am willing to judge his performance based on its merits", and others allowed their bias to permeate every single post here, calling for him to be fired in May, as was the case with Cater, and never once (that I can recall) posting a single positive comment on Valentine on any board that I frequent, as is the case with Breidey. Its a matter of giving the guy a chance, despite your reservations. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, but thats just my approach.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I am actually quite confused by this whole conversation. It is all just subjective. I don't think Bobby V is a good manager.. That is neither fair nor unfair. It is a opinion. If the team won this year, I would have said to myself, and others that I was incorrect about Bobby V.

    I think Kalish will be good, I don't think Iggy will be good. Again, neither fair nor unfair, just a subjective opinion. When people tell me they don't like Kalish I do not think them "unfair" to him, I think that they have a different opinion.

    Here is what I see as the difference between the two camps: some opined that he was a rotten choice from the beginning and never added "but I am willing to judge his performance based on its merits", and others allowed their bias to permeate every single post here, calling for him to be fired in May, as was the case with Cater, and never once (that I can recall) posting a single positive comment on Valentine on any board that I frequent, as is the case with Breidey. Its a matter of giving the guy a chance, despite your reservations. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, but thats just my approach.

    [/QUOTE]

    Okay I get your point.  I did not think him a good choice, but I certainly was willing to judge him based on how the team did.  I would never be one of those "this team won in spite of Valentine" people. I would have become a fan and admitted that I was wrong.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    He has made mistakes this year. No doubt about it. However, you and Cater never once posted that while you would have preferred someone else (not to mention WHO else) you were going to keep an open mind about his performance and judge it on its own merits. You two condemned him from nearly the beginning. You in particular participate in a forum where he was called a "clown" before he was even hired. There is a clear difference between judging Valentine before he started the job and after he has had a chance to do it, based on the body of his work. Furthermore, I will tell you again that there would be no talk about Valentine had Beckett and Lester done their jobs. Valentine wasn't even allowed to choose his own coaching staff. Who else does that? So while he hasn't done the job I had hoped for, to be fair, he was never given the tools with which to do it.

    1-I always keep an open mind, but I also always post my opinion.

    2-I didn't condemn him from the beginning.  There is a big difference between condemning someone and pointing out their mistakes.  It is not my fault that he makes mistakes on such a consistent basis that it looks like condemnation.

    3-I never called him a clo wn.  I called inept, with behavior so bizzare that I questioned his executive functioning.

    4-At the end of the day, it boils down to I was right and you were wrong.  But that doesn't matter.  What does matter was the early recognition of his continuing problems.  They were so so obvious, and yet so many posters stood tethered to the BV bus.  

    That is really what I don't understand.  How is it that he could make so many mistakes, and none of his supporters could bring themselves to recognize it?  Just on his very first two mistakes-

    Did you really think telling the press that Doubront had no out pitch was a good idea?

    When he complained to the press in ST that Bard wasn't throwing enough changeups, did it not occur to you to think that might be the manager's responsibility?

    When he didn't know who was pitching against us, did that not strike you as bizarre?

    That is what gets me.  I have no idea why his supporters wouldn't question these things?
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    In response to dannycater's comment:

    I know, but I think it's pike, hfx. Also, in that phot is that MIke Andrews?



    My pic is Yaz and Bill Lee.  Two of my favorite Sox players.  I like the picture because it looks like Lee is asking Yaz for some advice...but he might just be saying something typically Spaceman.   
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Valentine needs to be fired

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    Valentine did have some success with the Mets. He is a major league caliber manager with a lot of managing years under his belt. His knowledge of the game is widely respected in baseball circles, from what I read, and he comes with a personality that leaves something to be desired. He was worth a shot IMO. He may still be worth a shot for next year.
    Guess its just me, but I give people a chance to do their job before I decide they are incompetent. Many people here failed to do that. And especially given the team he was handed, that IS unfair.



    That's exactly why I think Cherington deserves a chance.  I think he was limited financially in his offseason moves.  If he was instrumental in the Dodger trade, that's a great move.  Now he gets a chance to show what he can do to build a good team. 
     

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