Valentine not the problem

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Clamshack. Show Clamshack's posts

    Valentine not the problem

    Let's say the Red Sox had decided last winter that they just weren't ready for Bobby Valentine as manager and hired Gene Lamont instead.

    Do you really think they would be 10 games over .500 instead of one game under?

    Because that's who the alternative was. It wasn't Tony La Russa or Joe Torre, it was Gene Lamont, who is three years older than Valentine, hasn't managed in the majors since 2000 and hasn't been offered the chance to, either.

    Do you really think Gene Lamont would have figured out a way around 1,119 games missed on the disabled list? Yes, that's one thousand, one hundred and nineteen. It's a record.

    Or the epically bad decision to make Daniel Bard a starter?

    Or the decision not to obtain a competent starting pitcher during the winter because Josh Beckett, Jon Lester and Clay Buchholz were enough?

    Or the decision not to do anything to change the chemistry of a team that flat-out quit on Terry Francona last season?

    Or the organization's alarming inability to promote one decent pitcher to the big leagues (other than Felix Doubront) since 2009?

    Or the run of terrible free-agent decisions made by Theo Epstein?

    If you sincerely believe that Gene Lamont would have fixed all that, then by all means Valentine should be fired.

    But don't fire Valentine because he doesn't get along with a bunch of assistant coaches who were hired by and remain loyal to Francona and/or the front office. Don't fire him because he was assigned a pitching coach who was fired by the Royals and was supposed to be a minor league instructor and part-time scout for the Sox.

    Don't fire him because he did what had to be done and moved Kevin Youkilis off third base and put Will Middlebrooks in.

    Don't fire him because the Red Sox make him cover up for players too gutless to explain things themselves.

    Don't fire him because the medical staff gets to decide when a player needs a day off.

    Don't fire him because he doesn't cozy up to certain media members whom Francona wisely tolerated because that was the path of least resistance.

    The Red Sox have not made the playoffs since 2009. They have not won a playoff game since 2008. They are three games under .500 since the 2011 All-Star break. This is an organization with issues that go way beyond the manager. Somewhere along the way, they lost their soul and that filtered down to the clubhouse.

    Make a list in your mind of players you believe really care whether the teams wins or loses on a given day. Bet you don't get deeper than seven or eight. This mess all started long before Valentine showed up.

    Changing the manager is not going to change any of that. Sure, Gene Lamont, Tim Bogar or somebody else can get that title and nod their heads at everything the front office says. They'll be quite excellent at making sure not to say anything that offends the players. After all, entitled underachievers should never be challenged or offended in any way.

    But know this: Valentine fixed a bullpen that was a complete mess 24 hours before the season started.

    He worked around the injuries well enough to compose lineups that have somehow scored the third-most runs in baseball.

    He wrung something out of guys like Mike Aviles, Andrew Miller, Daniel Nava, Vicente Padilla, Scott Atchison, Kelly Shoppach, Marlon Byrd, Scott Podsednik and Pedro Ciriaco.

    He was the guy who said Franklin Morales should be starting. He decided on Alfredo Aceves as the closer. He pushed for Middlebrooks and he's pushing for Ryan Lavarnway now.

    Only in Boston would you be subjected to such contrived nonsense as Valentine being called on the carpet for joking to a rookie about making a couple of bad plays in the field. Yes, certainly, Bill Belichick or Doc Rivers would never do such a thing.

    Only in Boston would such secondary, meaningless issues command more attention that the fundamental fact that 15 other franchises have qualified for the postseason since the Red Sox last did. That number will surely grow this October. Your team is not good and hasn't been for a while.

    The Red Sox need to significantly change their roster, not their manager. If you think getting rid of Valentine is going to change what is wrong about this team, you are fooling yourself. He's not the common denominator here no matter how hard some try and spin it. That's too easy.

    The Red Sox quit on their manager last year and they fired the manager. Maybe this time they need to look at where the problem really is.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Leftfielder61. Show Leftfielder61's posts

    Re: Valentine not the problem

    In Response to Re: Valentine not the problem:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Valentine not the problem : Is this a response to the thread topic?
    Posted by Fenwayjimy[/QUOTE]
    Yes it is, The post is Peter Abraham's article suggesting Bobby V is not the problem because Lamont was no better of a solution. My point is Farrell was really the man the Sox brass wanted. So I think the question is if we do believe Valentine is the problem (I believe he is PART of the problem) does it make sense to fire him and settle for someone other than the man that is the #1 choice.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Valentine not the problem

    In Response to Re: Valentine not the problem:
    [QUOTE]My question is does the FO still want John Farrell, and if they do- does it make sense to keep Valentine until Farrell's contract expires after 2013?
    Posted by Leftfielder61[/QUOTE]That's exactly what I think they'll do. Bobby's signed for next year anyway. Bobby might surprise still surprise some people too, if he gets to name his own coaching staff next year.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Valentine not the problem

    I think that Valentine will probably be fired either during or after the season. Personally , I don't think he deserves to be fired. I think he has done a good job with what he has to work with. But that is how things are usually done. As for Farrell ; I don't quite get the love for him. I remember his trips to the mound in 2010, with the pitchers ( esp. Lackey ) pretty much tuning him out. Then , by the time he sat back down in the dugout, an extra base hit ensued. There were a lot of comments about it on the game threads back then.  He has not exactly been overly impressive in Toronto , either.  Bottom line : The Sox' overpaid and underachieving players are the problem. The manager is not the problem. The trouble with some fans is that they fall in love with the players, so when things go wrong, it is easier to blame the manager.  The same thing happened to Tito.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Valentine not the problem

    Would any team be ready for Bobby V?

    The team just isn't that good from a talent stand point.  Bobby isn't the problem.  The players aren't the problem.  Management is the problem.

    If you go to an expensive restaurant and the meal was terrible because of the quality of the ingredients, do you blame the wait staff, the cook, or the people buying the ingredients?  A tough cut of meat is a tough cut of meat regardless of who cooked it or served it.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Valentine not the problem

    You leave a bad tip, though and that affects the waiter.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from splendidsplinterteddyballgame. Show splendidsplinterteddyballgame's posts

    Re: Valentine not the problem

    If he gets fired Bobby will be overly qualified to work in a child care center after dealing with a bunch of crying, whiny babies all season. Most of these players are pathetic. They are the problem, not Bobby.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Valentine not the problem

    I agree with Peter Abraham.  Bobby V may still get fired, but to me he has been much more the solution than the problem (s). 

    The injuries and trips to the DL have been real and significant.  Not Bobby V's fault.  Too bad Sweeney and Ortiz can't be fined for stupidity. 

    Beckett and Lester (and Lackey and Matsuzaka and Cook) are not his fault.  Buchholz bad start, ditto.  Bard starting probably not his fault.  Bailey and Melancon on the DL--same. 

    Youk leaving--not his fault.  In fact, Bobby V sent his best player, AGon, back out to RF a few times to get Youk into more lineups.  Simple reality was Middlebrooks was better and 9 years younger, and DH and 1B were already taken. 

    Fixing the bullpen without Papelbon, Bard, Bailey, or Melancon--probably thanks to Bobby V. Ditto using Morales to start a few games. 

    Lineups to get around all those guys on the DL--Ells, CC, Ortiz, Pedey, Aviles, Youk, Ross, Sweeney--Bobby V again.  I think he did pretty well.  He also seems to have an uncanny sense on when and who to pinch hit with.  

    Because of the wins and  losses, Bobby V just might get fired.  He said about two months ago he expects to be evaluated on how the team performs. 




     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from xdrive. Show xdrive's posts

    Re: Valentine not the problem

    Abraham nails it! max why is Ortiz stupid? did I miss something? was out of the loop for the weekend doing the pmc.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Valentine not the problem

    In Response to Re: Valentine not the problem:
    [QUOTE]Abraham nails it! max why is Ortiz stupid? did I miss something? was out of the loop for the weekend doing the pmc.
    Posted by xdrive[/QUOTE]

    Fair question.  I'm still over-reacting to the hurt achilles tendon from jogging around the basepaths after a dinger.  He's obviously not stupid, and it was probably a freak injury, but it hurt the Sox. 
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Valentine not the problem

    just what we need, Francona's sidekick in somnambulism

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from 6k42lt913c. Show 6k42lt913c's posts

    Re: Valentine not the problem

    Read the John Henry email thread. Pete Abraham has it right. Stop the scapegoating and wild speculation.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Valentine not the problem

    In Response to Valentine not the problem:
    [QUOTE]By Peter Abraham, Globe Staff Let's say the Red Sox had decided last winter that they just weren't ready for Bobby Valentine as manager and hired Gene Lamont instead. Do you really think they would be 10 games over .500 instead of one game under? Because that's who the alternative was. It wasn't Tony La Russa or Joe Torre, it was Gene Lamont, who is three years older than Valentine, hasn't managed in the majors since 2000 and hasn't been offered the chance to, either. Do you really think Gene Lamont would have figured out a way around 1,119 games missed on the disabled list? Yes, that's one thousand, one hundred and nineteen. It's a record. Or the epically bad decision to make Daniel Bard a starter? Or the decision not to obtain a competent starting pitcher during the winter because Josh Beckett, Jon Lester and Clay Buchholz were enough? Or the decision not to do anything to change the chemistry of a team that flat-out quit on Terry Francona last season? Or the organization's alarming inability to promote one decent pitcher to the big leagues (other than Felix Doubront) since 2009? Or the run of terrible free-agent decisions made by Theo Epstein? If you sincerely believe that Gene Lamont would have fixed all that, then by all means Valentine should be fired. But don't fire Valentine because he doesn't get along with a bunch of assistant coaches who were hired by and remain loyal to Francona and/or the front office. Don't fire him because he was assigned a pitching coach who was fired by the Royals and was supposed to be a minor league instructor and part-time scout for the Sox. Don't fire him because he did what had to be done and moved Kevin Youkilis off third base and put Will Middlebrooks in. Don't fire him because the Red Sox make him cover up for players too gutless to explain things themselves. Don't fire him because the medical staff gets to decide when a player needs a day off. Don't fire him because he doesn't cozy up to certain media members whom Francona wisely tolerated because that was the path of least resistance. The Red Sox have not made the playoffs since 2009. They have not won a playoff game since 2008. They are three games under .500 since the 2011 All-Star break. This is an organization with issues that go way beyond the manager. Somewhere along the way, they lost their soul and that filtered down to the clubhouse. Make a list in your mind of players you believe really care whether the teams wins or loses on a given day. Bet you don't get deeper than seven or eight. This mess all started long before Valentine showed up. Changing the manager is not going to change any of that. Sure, Gene Lamont, Tim Bogar or somebody else can get that title and nod their heads at everything the front office says. They'll be quite excellent at making sure not to say anything that offends the players. After all, entitled underachievers should never be challenged or offended in any way. But know this: Valentine fixed a bullpen that was a complete mess 24 hours before the season started. He worked around the injuries well enough to compose lineups that have somehow scored the third-most runs in baseball. He wrung something out of guys like Mike Aviles, Andrew Miller, Daniel Nava, Vicente Padilla, Scott Atchison, Kelly Shoppach, Marlon Byrd, Scott Podsednik and Pedro Ciriaco. He was the guy who said Franklin Morales should be starting. He decided on Alfredo Aceves as the closer. He pushed for Middlebrooks and he's pushing for Ryan Lavarnway now. Only in Boston would you be subjected to such contrived nonsense as Valentine being called on the carpet for joking to a rookie about making a couple of bad plays in the field. Yes, certainly, Bill Belichick or Doc Rivers would never do such a thing. Only in Boston would such secondary, meaningless issues command more attention that the fundamental fact that 15 other franchises have qualified for the postseason since the Red Sox last did. That number will surely grow this October. Your team is not good and hasn't been for a while. The Red Sox need to significantly change their roster, not their manager. If you think getting rid of Valentine is going to change what is wrong about this team, you are fooling yourself. He's not the common denominator here no matter how hard some try and spin it. That's too easy. The Red Sox quit on their manager last year and they fired the manager. Maybe this time they need to look at where the problem really is.
    Posted by Clamshack[/QUOTE]

    amazing post....truth hurts for some cLAMSHACK
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from 6k42lt913c. Show 6k42lt913c's posts

    Re: Valentine not the problem

    "To blame Bobby Valentine for the Red Sox being .500 at this point in the season is simply wrong. A lot has been written about injuries to key players this year. The impact of that on the Sox this year should not be discounted.

    "In baseball, managers often get too much credit and too much blame for what happens on the field. That seems to be a constant. There is often the thought in organizations, 'This isn't working so the manager needs to go.' But an organization is much more than the field manager. We all share responsibility for the success and failure of the Boston Red Sox. We are not making a change in manager.

    John Henry email today to WEEI

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Valentine not the problem

    1-There is a reasonable chance that this will be our worst record in 20 years.

    2-Absolutely no one likes him.

    3-Even the coaching staff doesn't speak with him.

    4-He gives press conferences where the information he gives out is contradicted by someone else a few minutes later.

    5-According to the critics in here, Beckett, Lester and Lackey were the problems last year.  So he started off the year bad-mouthing Doubront and Youkilis.

    6-And if all that meant nothing, he didn't know who we were facing in the MN game.  That should never happen.

    Is everything his fault?  No.

    Is he the worst manager in BB?  Yes.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: Valentine not the problem

    In Response to Re: Valentine not the problem:
    [QUOTE]1-There is a reasonable chance that this will be our worst record in 20 years. 2-Absolutely no one likes him. 3-Even the coaching staff doesn't speak with him. 4-He gives press conferences where the information he gives out is contradicted by someone else a few minutes later. 5-According to the critics in here, Beckett, Lester and Lackey were the problems last year.  So he started off the year bad-mouthing Doubront and Youkilis. 6-And if all that meant nothing, he didn't know who we were facing in the MN game.  That should never happen. Is everything his fault?  No. Is he the worst manager in BB?  Yes.
    Posted by Joebreidey[/QUOTE]

    It's amazing how many people don't understand the simple concept that things don't have to be his fault to make him a bad manager.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Valentine not the problem

    In Response to Re: Valentine not the problem:
    [QUOTE]1-There is a reasonable chance that this will be our worst record in 20 years. 2-Absolutely no one likes him. 3-Even the coaching staff doesn't speak with him. 4-He gives press conferences where the information he gives out is contradicted by someone else a few minutes later. 5-According to the critics in here, Beckett, Lester and Lackey were the problems last year.  So he started off the year bad-mouthing Doubront and Youkilis. 6-And if all that meant nothing, he didn't know who we were facing in the MN game.  That should never happen. Is everything his fault?  No. Is he the worst manager in BB?  Yes.
    Posted by Joebreidey[/QUOTE]

    dustin, is that you?
     
  18. This post has been removed.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Valentine not the problem

    In Response to Re: Valentine not the problem:
    [QUOTE]1-There is a reasonable chance that this will be our worst record in 20 years. 2-Absolutely no one likes him. 3-Even the coaching staff doesn't speak with him. 4-He gives press conferences where the information he gives out is contradicted by someone else a few minutes later. 5-According to the critics in here, Beckett, Lester and Lackey were the problems last year.  So he started off the year bad-mouthing Doubront and Youkilis. 6-And if all that meant nothing, he didn't know who we were facing in the MN game.  That should never happen. Is everything his fault?  No. Is he the worst manager in BB?  Yes.
    Posted by Joebreidey[/QUOTE]

    I won't go so far as to call him the worst manager in BB, but he is not going to lead this team after 110 some-odd games to suddenly switch gears from what it has been--a .500 team. John Henry's e-mail was the Sox 2012 death warrant, he signed it. The only way you can move forward and try to get the best out of guys who are not giving their best is to replace the leader. The Kings would not have won the Stanley Cup, the Penguins the same a few years ago without making a mid-to-late season coaching change. In each of those cases, the cry was the players were talented but not achieving....what's the difference with the Sox? They aren't achieving, so change the leader. You can't fire 25 players.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: Valentine not the problem

    It's not Bobby V's fault solely or even primarily but to claim he has done a good job is ludicrous. I suspect he won't be back in MLB managing after this, he has lost one too many brain cells somewhere along the way. He's very entertaining, so I guess if you want the "Red Sox reality show" you would want to cast him...

    When your own position coaches aren't talking to you that's a level of incompetence that is not encouraging. 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fenwayjimy. Show Fenwayjimy's posts

    Re: Valentine not the problem

    Are you a spanker of Boston trolls or are you a Boston fan who spanks all trolls?
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Valentine not the problem

    I won't go so far as to call him the worst manager in BB

    Just out of curiosity, if BV is not the worse manager in BB, who is?
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Valentine not the problem

    In Response to Re: Valentine not the problem:
    [QUOTE]I won't go so far as to call him the worst manager in BB Just out of curiosity, if BV is not the worse manager in BB, who is?
    Posted by Joebreidey[/QUOTE]

    If you'd rephrase that question to, who WAS,  I'd be able to answer you. Laughing
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Valentine not the problem

    Ozzie Guillen, and yes I know he won a WS title, but he's terrible.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Valentine not the problem

    In Response to Re: Valentine not the problem:
    [QUOTE]Ozzie Guillen, and yes I know he won a WS title, but he's terrible.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    Overrated for sure.  The worst?  I'd consider him.

    But think about it, who says more stupid things?
     
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