Value: some simply can't understand the concept

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Value: some simply can't understand the concept

    There are some weeping and gnashing their teeth over the loss of AGon....they simply are unable to understand the concept of value, esp. value-for-money.

    Consider AGon:

    2009:  Paid $3.125m, Fangraphs* value $28m
    2010:  Paid $4.875m, Fangraphs value $20.8m
    2011:  Paid $6.3m, Fangraphs value $29.5m
    2012:  Paid $21m, Fangraphs value $12.5 (so far)

    AGon used to be an extremely valuable player i.e. before he became fully priced. That $23m gap between pay and performance in 2011 is huge value and is one of the reasons the Sox were willing to deal good prospects for him rather than wait to compete for him in Free Agency.

    Now?  He's nowhere near as valuable as he was pre-2012 because he's fully priced now.  We lose AGon, we spend the money (hopefully wisely) elsewhere. 

    They only real "value" is pre-arb & (to a lesser degree) arb players and long term, lower-cost buyouts like Pedroia and Longoria....which is why it is extremely difficult and costly to acquire such players.


    * - like it or not, just treat it as a benchmark and follow the overall concept








     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept

    In order to rid ourselves of the CC and Beckett deals (Id like to see their value), LA wanted Gonzo. easy as that. Some of the same folks who were worried that we would have to pay 20mm of Becketts contract and upwards of 40-50mm of CC's to rid ourselves of them are the same ones complaining now...And we only had to pay 12mm for all of them!!! We can now restructure this team like it was when this regiem first took over. Sorry, but I cant find not one thing wrong with what they did. To be honest, I think we robbed LA...We got a couple of their top pitching prospects and 2 more position prospects that have good potential. Oh, and James Loney for the rest of this year, and just dumped a 260mm pair of handcuffs...Nope, cant find one reason to complain.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept

    Totally agree paw....I'd have been fine with this deal without any prospects coming our way at all!

    Then:  spend $60m/year on AGon/CC/Josh.  Now:  spend $60m/year on 3 - or more - quality players.  What's the problem?
     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept

    ....and let's not forget Punto.  Many complaint hounds have been baying for his blood and wanted him DFA in favour of Ciriaco.  Well that would have cost $1.5m for his 2013 salary, another saving to part offset the $12m haulage fee.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept

    In Response to Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept:
    [QUOTE]Totally agree paw....I'd have been fine with this deal without any prospects coming our way at all! Then:  spend $60m/year on AGon/CC/Josh.  Now:  spend $60m/year on 3 - or more - quality players.  What's the problem?
    Posted by SonicsMonksLyresVicars[/QUOTE]

    Some are afraid the FA wont want to come here because of what the Sox just did. I cant see a FA saying "No, Id like the 16mm for 4 years, but Its Boston so Ill go with Cleveland for 9mm and 3yrs."
    Also some think it will be years before the Sox are relevant again. We are not a low budget team and will spend money, just more wisely. We also have good prospects that could be made available in a trade along with the $$ to re-sign said player in that trade, if that were the route they take.
    Not sure I understand all the negative nancy thinking around here...

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from jpBsSoxFan. Show jpBsSoxFan's posts

    Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept

    In Response to Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept:
    [QUOTE]In order to rid ourselves of the CC and Beckett deals (Id like to see their value), LA wanted Gonzo. easy as that. Some of the same folks who were worried that we would have to pay 20mm of Becketts contract and upwards of 40-50mm of CC's to rid ourselves of them are the same ones complaining now...And we only had to pay 12mm for all of them!!! We can now restructure this team like it was when this regiem first took over. Sorry, but I cant find not one thing wrong with what they did. To be honest, I think we robbed LA...We got a couple of their top pitching prospects and 2 more position prospects that have good potential. Oh, and James Loney for the rest of this year, and just dumped a 260mm pair of handcuffs...Nope, cant find one reason to complain.
    Posted by southpaw777[/QUOTE]
    The Red Sox robbed L.A. on the trade ? OMG some people are dellusional.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept

    That's why I'm against having any players over 20/year, and 15+/year should only be given out to unquestioably known commodities.

    It's Duquette's fault, he went and spent 20/year for 8 years, and actually got a cornerstone player who was worth all that money. He's one of the only players to EVER live up to a deal like that! (toungue-in-cheek)

    If a player is demanding money like that, just let someone else sign them. It's not worth ruining a salary structure, and creating locker room problems. Ortiz commented on just that a few months back, guys getting paid off the street when other players who have proven their ability in Boston already are undervalued. Beltre/Martinez/Bay all produced here and none were ever given a realistic contract offer to come back. Crawford/Lackey/Gonzalez, among others, proved nothing in Boston, and were handed the 3 richest contract on the team. I can't imagine that system ever working.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept

    In Response to Value: some simply can't understand the concept:
    [QUOTE]There are some weeping and gnashing their teeth over the loss of AGon....they simply are unable to understand the concept of value, esp. value-for-money. Consider AGon: 2009:  Paid $3.125m, Fangraphs* value $28m 2010:  Paid $4.875m, Fangraphs value $20.8m 2011:  Paid $6.3m, Fangraphs value $29.5m 2012:  Paid $21m, Fangraphs value $12.5 (so far) AGon used to be an extremely valuable player i.e. before he became fully priced. That $23m gap between pay and performance in 2011 is huge value and is one of the reasons the Sox were willing to deal good prospects for him rather than wait to compete for him in Free Agency. Now?  He's nowhere near as valuable as he was pre-2012 because he's fully priced now.  We lose AGon, we spend the money (hopefully wisely) elsewhere.  They only real "value" is pre-arb & (to a lesser degree) arb players and long term, lower-cost buyouts like Pedroia and Longoria....which is why it is extremely difficult and costly to acquire such players. * - like it or not, just treat it as a benchmark and follow the overall concept
    Posted by SonicsMonksLyresVicars[/QUOTE]  Thats a  B I N G O    !!!!!
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept

    AGon was/is overpaid, but not by much.  He has averaged 160 games played for six years, and he is an rbi machine with the highest RISP average in baseball.  Gold glove firstbaseman who scarfed up a lot of bad throws this year.  Plays RF if necessary.  And so on. 

    His biggest endorsement comes from the Dodgers, who insisted he be the essential pot sweetner to make the bitter taste of Beckett and CC go down. 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from chuchos. Show chuchos's posts

    Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept

    I think the message to free agents is if you come to Boston, be ready to give 100%. Earn your salary. I think the Sox just did the game a huge service.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from SFBostonFan. Show SFBostonFan's posts

    Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept

    I posted this under discussion topic "Justification"....good copy & paste here I think...

    Here is the real justification: Even with these departed guys, we were still a subpar under .500 team & not even going to make the wild card. Would Ortiz returning make the difference...don't think so...and he's hurt again. Was the Fairy going to wave her magic wand & change things so we'd suddenly compete in 2013. We had no money to go after anybody to make us better not that what we picked up from LA is the answer either.
    It just seemed we had no chemistry...no real clutch hitting, pitching and hitting were erratic, pitch well, no runs, hit well, lousy pitching etc. So, a change, drastic yes, but it needed be made & we might even clean house some more. Last night was another example of our team's misfortune...9 runs 20 hits and KC gets 10 runs with 6 fewer hits, 14 ! Sort of story of our season. I say kick the can down the road & build ala Tampa Bay with young, injury free, energetic, enthusiatic non costly prospects.

    So, instead of watching MLB stars for a few years, like in football, I enjoy watching college teams/ players. Heck, I've enjoyed watching the Little League World Series, especially Petaluma, only about 45 min north of where I live in Bay Area.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept

    The Dodgers get one of baseball's best hitters, and a Gold Glover, they get a guy who will likely help them next year in the outfield, and they got a pitcher who will probably regain his mojo now that he's out of the toxic Sox environment. The Sox got back a weaker hitting version of Tony Clark. Magic Johnson and Ned Colletti just helped the Dodgers for years to come. The Sox, oh Kansas City Royals East, Pawtucket ClownCar Prime Time....woo-hoo, here we come!!!...You like losing, fans, admit it. You like to see the team go rock bottom. It's really sick.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept

    Crawford has 5 years and 100 million remaining. He turns 32 soon. I doubt they'll ever feel good about him being there.

    Beckett, if he has the slightest shred of pride left will absolutely pitch well in a weaker division. I don't know that he has any pride left though.

    Gonzalez will be what he's been, a very good player all around.

    This team was NOT going to win with this group of players, as proven over the past 3 years when they couldn't even make the playoffs!

    How can anyone be disappointed with a change in direction? The direction we were headed was in a big, slow circle going around the island of mediocrity while boasting a top 3 payroll across baseball.

    Unless you think Beckett and Crawford, both now 32, would suddenly channel their inner 27 year old selves? Because that happens so often. Guys usually hit their stride in their early 30s, right? I mean, Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro, McGwire and others all did. And though it hasn't really been happening for the past 5 years...I mean, sure, why not?

    Gonzalez is a good player, but at 22mil/year, he has to be an all star every year, and an MVP candidate to justify that money, and while he is usually one, he was not anywhere close to the other in Boston. He's THRILLED to be back in Cali, he said so himself, it wasn't going to work here.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept

    In Response to Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept : The Red Sox robbed L.A. on the trade ? OMG some people are dellusional.
    Posted by jpBsSoxFan[/QUOTE]

    Every Baseball Executive who has commented on this trade has applauded the Sox Front Office.  Here's an example:
    Brian Cashman:  "Excellent move by Boston.  Unfortunately." 

    Maybe, just maybe, that someone like you who is perpetually negative about everything has become a little "delusional." 
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept

    In Response to Value: some simply can't understand the concept:
    [QUOTE]There are some weeping and gnashing their teeth over the loss of AGon....they simply are unable to understand the concept of value, esp. value-for-money. Consider AGon: 2009:  Paid $3.125m, Fangraphs* value $28m 2010:  Paid $4.875m, Fangraphs value $20.8m 2011:  Paid $6.3m, Fangraphs value $29.5m 2012:  Paid $21m, Fangraphs value $12.5 (so far) AGon used to be an extremely valuable player i.e. before he became fully priced. That $23m gap between pay and performance in 2011 is huge value and is one of the reasons the Sox were willing to deal good prospects for him rather than wait to compete for him in Free Agency. Now?  He's nowhere near as valuable as he was pre-2012 because he's fully priced now.  We lose AGon, we spend the money (hopefully wisely) elsewhere.  They only real "value" is pre-arb & (to a lesser degree) arb players and long term, lower-cost buyouts like Pedroia and Longoria....which is why it is extremely difficult and costly to acquire such players. * - like it or not, just treat it as a benchmark and follow the overall concept
    Posted by SonicsMonksLyresVicars[/QUOTE]

    This is a very flawed analysis.  The bulk of A-Gon's 2012 value has accrued in the past 2 months.  If he continues at this pace (instead of reverting to his early season struggles) he has a shot at reaching his $21M salary, or at least coming within a coupl million.  Coupled with the fact that he was worth $23M more than he was paid last year, he looks like a good investment.  Chances are when 2012 is all said and done it will be one of the least productive seasons of his HOF career.


     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept

    The marketing guys rule the roost!

    Two monetary factors from having AGon:

    1.  If AGon wasn't Mexican/American he would still be in Boston

    2.  A long playoff run is worth $70m all together!  http://vincegennaro.mlblogs.com/

    Magic Johnson is the public face of a franchise determined to woo back Dodgers fans by spending whatever it takes to win -- and what better time than now? Gonzalez was the piece they coveted, a Southern California native and Mexican-American who will have the chance to re-enact the closest thing to Fernando-mania the club has seen since Fernando Valenzuela was the darling of Angelenos. EDES


    Crawford/Lackey were signed in large part for marketing purposes.

    "When you’re in a big market, and you win, and you’re up against the Yankees, and ratings are what they are, and attendance is what it is; no one wants to go backwards as a business," Epstein .http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1221215-theo-epstein-defends-red-sox-tenure-blames-lackey-signing-on-the-monster

    We all know how that went.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from SFBostonFan. Show SFBostonFan's posts

    Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept

    Although I wish Agon especially, CC too and Punto who did give us some good “D” good luck & Beckett too for 2007 in their futures, if the Dodgers catch the SF Giants(I am a Giant fan too…Sox 1st) and they all contribute to LA’s success, it’s a double edged sword as the posts will as they did be full of what a mistake it was when Youk with Chicago raised his average some 20pts.  There will be a lot of Monday “mourning” morning quarterbacks lamenting the trade. Will be interesting !!!
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from NoahJustin. Show NoahJustin's posts

    Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept

    In Response to Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept:
    [QUOTE]The Dodgers get one of baseball's best hitters, and a Gold Glover, they get a guy who will likely help them next year in the outfield, and they got a pitcher who will probably regain his mojo now that he's out of the toxic Sox environment. The Sox got back a weaker hitting version of Tony Clark. Magic Johnson and Ned Colletti just helped the Dodgers for years to come. The Sox, oh Kansas City Royals East, Pawtucket ClownCar Prime Time....woo-hoo, here we come!!!...You like losing, fans, admit it. You like to see the team go rock bottom. It's really sick.  We were losing before the trade. 
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]  We were a sub 500 hundred team before the trade going nowhere. "You like losing"? We were losing with the overpaid Crawford and Beckett. At least now we have a chance to sign and develope hungry young players who will run down a ball and want to be here. Maybe you think big name, big salaried players who under preformed are the way to go. I'm going to miss AG too, but the salaries were handcuffing us. Crawford and Beckett weren't going to lead us to the championship. (When healthy) 

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept

    In Response to Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Value: some simply can't understand the concept : This is a very flawed analysis.  The bulk of A-Gon's 2012 value has accrued in the past 2 months.  If he continues at this pace (instead of reverting to his early season struggles) he has a shot at reaching his $21M salary, or at least coming within a coupl million.  Coupled with the fact that he was worth $23M more than he was paid last year, he looks like a good investment.  Chances are when 2012 is all said and done it will be one of the least productive seasons of his HOF career.
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]

    Where is the flaw?  Where did I write that he's reverted to type?  My point - obvious, I thought - is that AGon's huge value-for-money is now forever in the past unless/until he ups his game to Ruthian proportions.

    The Sox got HUGE value out of him in 2011 on the field and in value-for-money terms....if he reverts to his normal form he'll earn his salary.  It could be argued the Sox brilliantly squeezed max value from him in 2011 and pulled the plug now that he is no longer a bargain.  His pre-2012 career was the big value.

    Think about it:  if AGon was signed for 6 more years at $6m/year how much more valuable would he be than he is signed for 6 more years at $21m+/year?  Once players are fully priced their "value" drops immediately.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from jpBsSoxFan. Show jpBsSoxFan's posts

    Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept

    In Response to Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept : Every Baseball Executive who has commented on this trade has applauded the Sox Front Office.  Here's an example: Brian Cashman:  "Excellent move by Boston.  Unfortunately."  Maybe, just maybe, that someone like you who is perpetually negative about everything has become a little "delusional." 
    Posted by jasko2248[/QUOTE]

    Put the pom poms down and give your head a shake. Can you sit there and honestly say the Red Sox won this trade or better yet robbed L.A. ?  This team will be a doormat 4th or 5th place team for 3-5 years.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept

    In Response to Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept : Put the pom poms down and give your head a shake. Can you sit there and honestly say the Red Sox won this trade or better yet robbed L.A. ?  This team will be a doormat 4th or 5th place team for 3-5 years.
    Posted by jpBsSoxFan[/QUOTE]

    If this was a 2012 Fantasy baseball trade, then the Dodgers got the better of the trade.  Fortunately, it wasn't.  From reading your posts, you're clearly either a Yankee fan or not bright enough to see the big picture, which is fine, just keep posting your whiny rants that make you sound like a 2 year-old who just lost his binky.  It must really be fun to live a "we're all doomed" existence all the time.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from jpBsSoxFan. Show jpBsSoxFan's posts

    Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept

    Please help me see this big picture you are talking about. I didn't mind seeing Beckett and Crawford go but really they had to let the team's best hitter go ? What is that telling their fans ? I am just as much of a fan as you claim to be. It's time to face the fact there will be dark years ahead for the Sox.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept

    There is absolutely no doubt the Dodgers got the best of this deal for the remainder of the 2012 season. None.  But who cares, the team was dead in the water.

    WRT to 2013-2017 I think the Sox have done brilliantly for themselves regardless of how the Dodgers end up doing.  And I think the Dodgers will be very unhappy to be saddled with $45m/year of CC and AGon as they age into their mid 30s.

    And that excludes what value we might get from de la Rosa and the others.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from fizsh. Show fizsh's posts

    Re: Value: some simply can't understand the concept

    Sonics,

    I understand your point about value, but I think you are making a mistake.  A team still needs guys that perform at a high level, regardless of what they make.  Which is the better team, a team with a $60 million payroll performing at a $100 million level or a team with a $170 million payroll performing at a $150 million level?  The better bargain is the former, but the better team is the latter, outperforming them by 50%.

    And chuchos, what player that the Sox signed as a free agent and was traded didn't give 100%?  Every thing I have read about Crawford says he is a very hard worker and gives his all.  He was willing to play despite needed Tommy John surgery.  And Punto, just because he is not a great hitter doesn't mean he isn't giving 100%.  He played very good defense and was able to fill in, just what you expect from a utility guy.  Both Gonzalez (who as even Sonics admits was performing to the money the Sox paid him) and Beckett were not signed as a free agents.  They were traded for and then extended a year before their contracts were up.

    That being said, I think looking objectively the trade was good.  Not great, but certainly not horrible.  What remains to be seen is how the Sox go from here.  I believe it will be difficult for them to compete next year, but they should be back by 2014. 
     

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