Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation

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    Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation

    In Response to Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation:
    [QUOTE]If Salty could just call games like he does for Lester, we'd be OK.  It's weird - it's like he's a completely different game caller in Matsuzaka's starts. By the way, 7 blue jays reached base today, and 3 stole bases. 
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]

    Lester is a better pitcher than Dice. Hence the results.
    But, Lester was still compromised by VMART last year.

    2010: Lester with VMART: 3.64 ERA - 136 IP

    Lester with Tek/Cash:     2.48 ERA - 65 IP
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpikeCunn5. Show SpikeCunn5's posts

    Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation

    In Response to Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation:
    [QUOTE]If Salty could just call games like he does for Lester, we'd be OK.  It's weird - it's like he's a completely different game caller in Matsuzaka's starts. By the way, 7 blue jays reached base today, and 3 stole bases. 
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]


    I don't believe it is salty, I think he need more time to develop a relationship with the pitchers. They just don't seem to trust him except for Lester, but I think Lester is thinking more about the team and the others are thinking more about thier stats. Just my take
     
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    Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation

    sad harness, for all the reasons you championed the Private Group you stay here and attack those you supposedly wanted to be rid of.  You have your forum, now go to it and be gone.


     
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    Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation

    The advent of the Private group was as much a surprise to me as it was to you.
    You've b*tched about the bumping issues as much as anyone else. The new forum is a result of that.

    If you think I'm gonna let you spew your ignorance, continue to needle, or post poorly researched posts without my reaction, you're crazier than those Cambodian snipers who guard you day and night.

     
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    Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation

    In Response to Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation : Starting VMart is not an option.  Do you have any reason to believe that Varitek is a better game-caller than Salty
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]

    Beyond the early numbers this year...and those of last year (very short sample-size) which heavily favor Tek, Salty has outdone some of his counterparts, but comes-up short with others. He has shown progress. Nothing from his Texas/Atlanta days suggest he'll be a detriment. But his lack of experience works against him.

    It's a matter of patience. He, like several others, is pressing. I don't think we're seeing his complete game. Not at all.

    My point with Lester/VMART was that even a very good pitcher can have lesser results with a lesser catcher.


     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from kmr2318. Show kmr2318's posts

    Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation

    As of last Thursday, the team ERA with Varitek behind the plate is 3.86. With Saltalamacchia, it is 8.06.


    Those figures will normalize over time, but some of the separation may have to do with their respective comfort levels, and those of the guys throwing the pitches.

    Hopefully, Salty will pan out over time but this team is on crisis alert now. TEK catching more games will only help stabilize the pitching rotation over time and take the pressure off Salty.  We need to get the pitching on track as priority #1.  TEK will do that and has been as these stats don't lie.


     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation

    I think VTeK could catch 4 times a week. I think the lack of throwing is more than compensated by the lack of baserunners allowed when he catches.

    harness, bringup the VTek numbers again: head-to-head with all the pitchers that have significant sample sizes with 2 or more catchers. It's the only true way to use CERA in a meaningful way.

    Here's 2010:

    Lester with... (IP)
    VTek  (38)  1.88
    Cash  (27)  3.38
    VMart (136) 3.64 (in 33 IP 2009, VMart did do better than VTek, but Lester is a slow starter and VMart came in August)

    To some this is not impressive?

    Lester with...
    VTek   (41)  3.29
    VMart (123) 4.81
    Cash & Salty had small sample sizes but both were way better than VMart

    Not impressive enough ?

    Dice-K with...
    VTek (50)  3.81
    Cash (23) 3.57
    VMart (69) 5.90
    (In 2009, both VTek and VMart were over 5.40 with Dice)

    Not impressive enough?

    Beckett with ...

    VTek (36)  7.18
    VMart (74) 5.11 (2010 was a lost season for Beckett no matter who caught him)
    2009:
    VTek (185) 3.17
    VMart (16) 7.16

    Combining 2009 & 2010: VTek is ahead of VMart.
    Career: 

    VMart (90) 5.48
    VTek (731) 3.90

    Buch & Wake are unique cases. VTek barely caught Wake over the last 2 years, and VTek barely caught Buch. In the intst of fairness, i will giv th umbers anyway...

    Buch with...
    VTek (just 4 IP) 2.25
    VMart (165 IP )  2.13
    2009:
    VTek   (10) 3.72
    VMart (77) 4.34

    My guess is that 2009 and 2010 combined is about even. Using Vtek's stats when Buch was a young unconfident pitcher is not a fair comparison
    , since VMart was not here then.

    If you insist on bringing up 2008, consider this. Kevin csh is considered an excellent defensive /playcalling catcher.
    2008:
    VTek (67)  6.88
    Cash (9)    5.79
    2007:
    Vtek (19) 1.93
    Cask + Mira (4) 0.00

     To compare VMart with Buch in 2009-2010 to VTek with Buch in 2008 is not wise.

    VTek did not catch Wake at all last year or in 2009.

    harness has the numbers on the relievers but the sampe sizes are mostly too small.





     
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    Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation

    I hope Burrito chokes on those numbers.
    Of course, he likely doesn't understand any of it.

    One thing, Moon:On Beckett in 2010: Tek caught him 6 of 8 games in April/May.
    3 quality starts. 7 IP in 4 of the 6 games. 5.6 and 3 in the other two.

    VMART caught him twice during this period: Josh couldn't get out of the 5th frame in either start.

    Once Beckett returned from the DL, Tek wasn't allowed to catch him in anyof Josh's 2nd half starts. Tito paired him with VMART almost exclusively in the second half.

    To think Boston had an 18-9 record with Tek starting games in 2010 is amazing considering he didn't really catch Buch - and was quite limited with Lester.

    Today was a good example of Josh getting a win w/o his best stuff.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BaseballGM. Show BaseballGM's posts

    Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation

    Slomag, take a look at Varitek and VMart catching Buch. Some forms of life are simply parasitic puss.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation

    One thing, Moon:On Beckett in 2010: Tek caught him 6 of 8 games in April/May.
    3 quality starts. 7 IP in 4 of the 6 games. 5.6 and 3 in the other two.

    Yes, I know from the old CERA thread, but I am sure ther might have also been times that VMart caught someone in a bad strecth through no fault of his own, so I chose not to mention it.

    VMART caught him twice during this period: Josh couldn't get out of the 5th frame in either start.

    It is a near certainty that VTek will now be Beckett's caddy no matter who is pitching for the opps. I had hoped Salty & Tek would platoon by LHP/RHP and both would get a chance to mix it up, in case someone gets hurt, then they are experienced with all, but we can't risk Salty with Josh now.


    Once Beckett returned from the DL, Tek wasn't allowed to catch him in anyof Josh's 2nd half starts. Tito paired him with VMART almost exclusively in the second half.

    To think Boston had an 18-9 record with Tek starting games in 2010 is amazing considering he didn't really catch Buch - and was quite limited with Lester.

    Today was a good example of Josh getting a win w/o his best stuff.
     
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    Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation

    That'll pigeon-hole Beckett. What if Tek goes down and Josh is in a must win series? (Recall 2009).

    As much as I want Tek catching more, the decision to go with Salty must be explored until there's not a shadow of a doubt about his abilities...or lack thereof.

    I think Salty should be given the chance he's worked so hard for. Theo placed his bet. Now he's got to man up to the results. If a decision is made to cut back on Salty's playing time, an even tandem might be the smartest thing.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BaseballGM. Show BaseballGM's posts

    Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation

    Salty hasn't worked any harder than any other player trying to make it in the majors. The bad news is that Salty was a reject for a reason. He doesn't throw well, doesn't hit well, and doesn't block well. The good news is that this will have no bearing on how the pitching staff does this year.
     
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    Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation

    Check out what Salty did with Tuck in the off-season.
    Few would have devoted that much time.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BaseballGM. Show BaseballGM's posts

    Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation

    I'm not impressed by a guy trying to get a long term contract.

    Define "disrupt the pitcher", in the context of base stealing. Please provide proof from game logs. Thank you.
     
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    Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation

    In Response to Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation:
    [QUOTE]I'm not impressed by a guy trying to get a long term contract. Define "disrupt the pitcher", in the context of base stealing. Please provide proof from game logs. Thank you.
    Posted by BaseballGM[/QUOTE]

    R U impressed with AGONE?
    Was he trying to get a long-term contract?

    You want numerical proof of how pitchers are affected by base stealers?
    Just see the pitchers' game logs who faced the mid-80's Cardinals.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from BaseballGM. Show BaseballGM's posts

    Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation

    Were the Cards in the AL?

    I'm impressed with AGon's career numbers over many years. No, he wasn't playing for a long term contract. He was traded and could have gone to FA.

    Are you impressed with Salty over many years?
     
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    Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation

    You didn't limit the effects of baserunning to a given league.

    Salty is seen to have upside.
    Not just by the FO, but by his piers as well.
    He's only 25 - with just 260 games under his belt.
    How many catcher excel with such limited experience?

    He was in the big leagues at age 22. He showed promise during his first two years with limited PT.

    The FO feels he's worth the gamble. I wouldn't have made him a FT catcher at this point, but the gamble could pay off. I think he'd be better served in more of a catching tandem.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation

    harness, can you repost all the CERA data you have on VTek vs other catchers?
     
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  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation

    I'm not dismissing Catcher relevance, but I think you are working with very small sample sizes, and rationalizing the data that doesn't fit.  If the point of the argument is that a catcher can have a postive influence over his pitcher, then it goes to follow that there may have been a catcher who could have done a better job with Lester the first few weeks of 2010.  Judging from his 2011 start, maybe Salty is that Catcher.  

    You my be right, but it seems that no matter who catches Lester, he does worse in April. That was my point. The fact is, Jon had about half the ERA with VTek than VMart last year. Yes, 39 IP with Vtek is small, but when all the 1 (Beckett) of the starting pitchers do way better with VTek, thn those smallr sample sizes form a trnd that has been consistent with bothVTek's and VMart's past trends with other catchers, pitchers and teams. It's just too much to dismiss out of hand. 

    Dismissing Beckett's 2010 season is insincere - he may have been terrible, but he was significantly less terrible with VMart than with Varitek in roughly the same sample size as what you use to support the argument.  

    I didnt dismiss it, I posted it and commented that he was terrible with both. Yes, there is a big difference between a 7 ERA and a 5 ERA, but my point was that Beckett was not Beckett, nd I doubt anyone could have righted him. harness has mentioned the pint better than I; that a catcher can mot influence a pitcher when he isneither really bad or really good, but somewhere inbetween. I agree with his positin. 

    Combining the 2009 and 2010 numbers for Beckett is extremely insincere, as was a far better pitcher and VMart didn't even join the team until August.  

    OK then, take the numbers from August 1st to tthe end of last year combinand VTek would be ahead of VMart with Beckett. That makes every staring pitcher, except Buchholtz better with VTek than VMart, and the sample size of Buch with VTek while VMart was here is so tiny and still prety close in ERA anyways.

    When you look at Buchholz & Lester as a whole in 2010, it's hard to believe that VMart was a detriment to them.  

    I never said he was; my point was and is that VTek was better, was moreof a help, and go better results.

    Again, I think there is something to catcher relevance, but I think it is highly subjective, and what is a good catcher for one pitcher is not necessarily a good catcher for another pitcher.  

    I agree with this.

    Other than a knee-jerk emotional response to the poor start of the season, there is no reason to believe that Salty is a detriment to any pitcher he has ever caught.  

    I am not saying he is. My point is that this team is too goo to let the experiment go on for too long if the results kep repeating themselves. I do not blame Salty for the pitcher's poor start. I don't give VTek all the credit for Beckett's two good stars as well. I do know that VTek is good with the staff. I know winning andlosing is a team stat, but I do not think it is a coincidence that we win way more with VTek than whoever else catches this team.

    When with the Rangers, his cERA was consistently lower than respected defensive catchers like Gerald Laird and Ivan Rodriguez.  Varitek is 39 and has not been able to hit right-handed pitching in 3 years.  

    1) I do not think hitting from this team's catcher is a must.
    2) I think handling the staff is more important.
    3) I have suggested that VTek cach almost exclusively vs LHPs and maybe a few RHPs he has a history of doing well against.

    How much longer do we want to believe that he is the only guy who can handle this pitching staff?  

    I don't beieve he is"the only one". I still have faith in Salty. I know VTek can not be a FT catcher, so we have to have someone else.  That someone may very well be Salty. He is still young enough to improve. He could end up being better than Vtek.

    And what is it that is fair to ask of any guy who replaces him?

    No, but it is fair to expect that ayone we get to catch fits well with th staff.

    I'm not expecting Salty to be Carlton Fisk, but based on past performances (and a little optimism on defense) I think he can throw out 25% of base runners, hit .250 with a .700 OPS and not be a detriment to the pitching staff.  If anybody has reason to doubt this (again other than the knee-jerk emotional response to the poor start of the season) please present some evidence.  We know this is better than we would get from Varitek.  

    If Vtek could catch fulltime, and we know he can't, with all the PAs vs LHPs and resing some only vs a few RHPs, we coul probbly expect ...
    .200 and a 15% CS rate. Howevr, if VTek could get just a average half run better ERA per start from te staff, that would way outweigh the loss on offense and throwing out runners. I'm not saying it's a given he can d that, but I know he can do well with his staff. I do not know yet about Salty. For me, this is not "knee-jerking". harness and I have believed that CERA can make a bigger difference than a .400 hitting catcher vs a .200 one.

    I'm fine with Varitek playing personal catcher to Beckett for a while - once Beckett's confidence is back, I think he can pitch to anybody.  I'd be fine with Varitek starting against every lefty, too, as he can still handle the bat from the right side.  Beyond that, you have to give Salty the job, and enough time to prove whether or not he can handle it.

    I think VTek vs all lefty starters (unless 3 in 3 days) should be the plan. Add to that a few start vs RHPs (when Beckett starts or when VTek has good splits vs that righty) would give Vtek about 60 starts. That leaves plenty of games for Salty to prove himself. It may take even more than this year and next, but if we keep losing with Salty, it is likely Theo will look elsewhere for hlp.

    Here re the 2010 numbers again...
    :

    Lester with... (IP)
    VTek  (38)  1.88
    Cash  (27)  3.38
    VMart (136) 3.64 

    Lackey with...
    VTek   (41)  3.29
    VMart (123) 4.81
    Cash & Salty had small sample sizes but both were way better than VMart

    Dice-K with...
    VTek (50)  3.81
    Cash (23) 3.57
    VMart (69) 5.90

    Beckett with ...
    VTek (36)  7.18
    VMart (74) 5.11
    2009:
    VTek (185) 3.17
    VMart (16) 7.16
    Career: 
    VMart (90) 5.48
    VTek (731) 3.90

    Buch & Wake are unique cases. VTek barely caught Wake over the last 2 years, and VTek barely caught Buch. In the intst of fairness, I will give the numbers anyway...

    Buch with...
    VTek (just 4 IP) 2.25
    VMart (165 IP )  2.13
    2009:
    VTek   (10) 3.72
    VMart (77) 4.34

    VTek did not catch Wake at all last year or in 2009. VMart did well with Wake.

     
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    Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation

    Here's another view:

    To get a better look at match-ups when both catchers have caught each pitcher.

    PAs/OPS with each catcher:
                     VTek             Mart
    DiceK  214/.622   295/.784   +.162
    Lack     178/.724  531/.805   +.081
    Beck     165/.851  328/.823   -.028
    Lester 151/.492   574/.656   +.164

    the relievers (40+ PAs each) :
    Bard      66/.304   183/.651  +.347
    Paps      66/.790   169/.629  -.161
    Oki         59/.669   107/.973  +.304
    MDC       51/.717  113/.624   -.093
    Atch      45/.652   138/.812   +.160
    RRam    43/.688     92/.809   +.121

    If this was just one season, maybe you could say it is luck, but the numbers are similar thoughout both VTek's and VMart's entire careers.
     
     
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    Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation

    SALTY IS UNBEARABLE NO QUESTION HAS NO CLUE TO CALLING A GAME & TODAY HE THREW TO SECOND INSTEAD OF HOLDING RUNNER AT THIRD COSTING LESTER A RUN

    VARITEK AT 39 NOT THE ANSWER  SOX MUST GO GET RYAN DOUMIT  THE GOOD 30 YR OLD CATCHER FROM THE PIRATES  CHRIS SNYDER IS NOW OFF DL & STARTING  DOUMIT AVERAGED 278 WITH POWER LAST 3 YEARS IN A HUGE PARK & THREW OUT 30% OF BASE STEALERS
    YES JED LOWRIE MUST PLAY EVERY DAY  SCUTARO CAN BE THE UTILITY GUY HE WAS FOR 10 YEARS!!!
     
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    Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation

    I agree, the sample size is too small and fractured to judge Salty now. He hasn't even been with the same staff for a full season of full tim catching duty yet. He should not be judged harshly.

    I do have sympathy for those who feel he was put in a situation under a heat lamp and asked to prove himself too quickly.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from kmr2318. Show kmr2318's posts

    Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation

    What was the difference in the enigmatic Dice-K?

    "Before the game I sat down to talk to [catcher Jason] Varitek," Matsuzaka said. "I agreed with what he said. He told me to focus on throwing right to his mitt. I knew that would help my pitching."

     
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    Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation

    In Response to Re: Varitek Should Start: We need a catcher now who can stabilize this rotation:
    [QUOTE]Another WIN with V-TEK as the signal caller behind the plate.  Beckett's line:  one run on three hits over seven innings while recording two walks and nine strikeouts. Time to start V-TEK and place Salty as the back up! Beofre today Varitek has caught three games thusfar, which isn’t a huge sample size, but hear me out. One was Daisuke who was a seesaw all season last year, and has always been horribly inconsistent. The other two? Josh Beckett’s 8 INN, 10K, 0 ER performance against the Yanks, and Lester’s 7 INN, 8K, 3 ER performance against the Rays. Salty gave up 26 ER against the Rangers (3 games), 10 ER against the Yankees (2 games), and 16 ER in the one game against the Rays, a team that couldn’t generate ANY offense prior to playing us. Now, how is someone going to say it’s the pitching staff?
    Posted by kmr2318[/QUOTE]This where a lot of folks lose me. Dice-K has a bad game with Tek behind the plate and it is Dice K. But I am sure many Tekkies are going to point at today's game and say that Tek is why Dice K threw a one hitter.

    And for the record, it was the pitchers and not the catcher that gave up the runs. Pitchers are far from morons when it comes to their craft and if the catcher is calling for pitches they are not comfortable with they will shake him off. Just watch how often Beckett shook off Tek in the last two starts. The RS have had some pretty lousy starts early featuring bad command of the zone and they have paid for it dearly, as have the relievers on occasion.

    Now I will not contest that pitchers have always enjoyed working with Jason Varitek but they are the masters of their destiny not the catcher. Pedro Martinez would have won 20 a year pitching to a old tire hung from a tree and John Smoltz was toast by the time he got to Boston and no matter what Tek called hitters were going to hammer it. 

    And honestly I don't think Jason Varitek can physically catch the majority of the workload at his age. It would not take but a few weeks IMO for his defense to suffer and his bat to get even slower. And a slow bat for a guy who can't layoff of high heat is a real bad thing. It would get ugly and faster than many think IMO. People forget how bad Jason looked in July of 2009 and it isn't his fault, it is his age at a very physically demanding position. 

    Salty may not be the answer at catcher in the long term but it is for the moment the horse they brought to the track 5 out of every 7 games.

    Just my take 
     

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