Verlander deserves MVP

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from WE5NUTS. Show WE5NUTS's posts

    Verlander deserves MVP

     Think about it- no pitcher has had a season like this since Pedro Martinez's 2000
    with a 1.74 E.R.A. and another W.H.I.P. below 1. He wa the main force in the Tiger's division run, and his only clear competiton appears to be Ellsbury. I, personally, do not care who wins MVP as long as it is Ellsbury or Verlander, but, in my opinion, Verlander deserves it more.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    I agree.

    For those who think starters don't deserve MVP because the only play every 5 days, how many hitters had 969 PAs this year?

    That's how many PAs against Verlander faced.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    [QUOTE]I agree. For those who think starters don't deserve MVP because the only play every 5 days, how many hitters had 969 PAs this year? That's how many PAs against Verlander faced.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    I don't buy that argument - you would never vote for a positional player who only played in 34 games, even if he hit .600 with 20 HRs in that time.

    Besides which, the Tigers won their division by 15 games, so you can replace Verlander with a .500 pitcher and they still coast comfortably into the post-season.  If you want to give the award to a pitcher, give it to James Shields - the Rays don't make the playoffs without his 11 complete games.  

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    I'd vote for a positional player who had 969 PAs in 34 games.

    Shields was probably "more valuable" to his team's making the playoffs, so in that sense you have a point, but Verlander was the best player this year and his team made the playoffs: he should win.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    [QUOTE]I agree. For those who think starters don't deserve MVP because the only play every 5 days, how many hitters had 969 PAs this year? That's how many PAs against Verlander faced.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]
    I would not have any objection to Verlander being the MVP. He had a great year.  However, your logic here is very flawed.  By your standard , just about any starting pitcher would deserve the MVP award over any hitter. 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from onesoxtwosoxredsoxbosox. Show onesoxtwosoxredsoxbosox's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP : I would not have any objection to Verlander being the MVP. He had a great year.  However, your logic here is very flawed.  By your standard , just about any starting pitcher would deserve the MVP award over any hitter. 
    Posted by dgalehouse[/QUOTE]

    He's not arguing Verlander should win the MVP just because of the amount of PAs he faced, he's arguing that Verlander's outstanding, near-unhittable performance throughout all those plate appearances make him the most viable candidate for an MVP.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from tyler Scionti. Show tyler Scionti's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    Verlander was insanely good this year, something a MVP should be. He had an outstanding season, and in the so called "year of the pitcher" he stood out as the best. I'd say if he got the award I wouldn't complain one bit. Of course if Gonzo or Ells took it home I'd be happy too.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    No they don't. Verlander had a fantastic year and faced 969 batters.

    I do think starting pitchers are more important than positional players, but they have to have a great year to be considered for MVP. I would think Shields might be my 2nd place pick, but I do not think a pitcher has deserved the MVP every year.

    I stopped caring about the MVP award when pedro got robbed. Pedro had perhaps the most dominating year in the history of MLB. When you compare his numbers the the league average, his year was mind-boggling.

    Look at it this way:
    What was the OPS of Jacoby? (.928)
    What's the league average OPS? (.720)
    What was the OPS against Verlander? (.555)  .192/.242/.313/.555

    While Jacoby was .208 above the league average OPS, he "only" had 729 PAs. Verlander was .165 below the league average, but for 240 more PAs. I know it's not all about OPS. OBP is more important than Slg%. Ellsbury's .376 OBP was .055 higher than the league average (.321). Verlander's OBP against was an amazing .242! That's .079 below the league average.

    Pedro's 1999 and 200 seasons were astronomically fantastic, but he didn't win either year. His 2000 season was off the charts.

    Opponents against Pedro:
    1999: .205/.248/.288/.536 (league: .271/.345/.434/.778)
    2000: .167/.213/.259/.473 (league: .270/.345/.437/.782)

    As you can see, the league average was much higher in '99-'00 than today, and yet Pedro's numbers were .242 and .309 below the league OPS average!!
    He was .097 and .132 below the leagu OBP those 2 years!

    Pitchers should be considered for MVP, and how many batters they face is valuable, but there is not a pitcher deserving of the MVP award each year.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from caseycsw. Show caseycsw's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

         The traditionalist in me (yes, I know it's happened before) says a postion player deserves it. Yes, Bautista, Cabrera, A-Gon, and Grandy all had excellent years.  But Ellsbury, on a collapsing team or not, was the Most Valuable Player.  I think it's pretty disappointing if Verlander or any of the other 4 beats him out....

    "Pray for the dead, and fight like hell for the living."

    Mary Harris "Mother" Jones (union and community 

     organizer, born 1837 (Ireland) - 1930 (U.S.) )

     
    when the boss comes callin' his take his toll 
    when the boss comes callin' don't you sell your soul 
    when the boss comes callin' we gotta organize 

            - Dropkick Murphys (for the workers of Wisconsin)

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    I think many voters look at it as the Cy Young award is the MVP for pitchers.  The word " valuable " is kind of subjective , and causes much of the confusion. It is a little clearer if you think of it as the pitcher of the year and the player of the year. Much as you would separate offensive and defensive players in football.  Anyway , I do think Verlander will win it this year , and I don't have any problem with it.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from kannaman. Show kannaman's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    Verlander had a great year and deserved the Cy Young. He pitched 251 innings, had a ERA of 2.40, struck out 250 batters and went 24-5 those are awesome numbers. Ellsbury played in 154 games...close to 1386 innings...he had 388 put outs...that's like 130 innings worth of outs. Verlander was great for 251 innings...Ellsbury for 1386...that's the argument you have to consider. That's not even looking at Granderson or Adrian Gonzalez....it will be interesting what ever happens but for me I don't like seeing a pitcher get the MVP....there are years where a pitcher might be worthy....or there are enough candidates where the vote is split.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    [QUOTE]Verlander had a great year and deserved the Cy Young. He pitched 251 innings, had a ERA of 2.40, struck out 250 batters and went 24-5 those are awesome numbers. Ellsbury played in 154 games...close to 1386 innings...he had 388 put outs...that's like 130 innings worth of outs. Verlander was great for 251 innings...Ellsbury for 1386...that's the argument you have to consider. That's not even looking at Granderson or Adrian Gonzalez....it will be interesting what ever happens but for me I don't like seeing a pitcher get the MVP....there are years where a pitcher might be worthy....or there are enough candidates where the vote is split.
    Posted by kannaman[/QUOTE]

    Very flawed; a pitcher faces every batter when he's in there.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    No pitcher should be MVP. That's why we have the cy young award.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from traven. Show traven's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    Outstanding year for Verlander...I don't have a problem with it either way.  I do sort of think that if one considers Verlander you would also have to take a close look at Valverde of the Tigers also.  He converted 48 of 48 save attempts.  Verlander had only 4 complete games so he had to depend on someone else to preserve his win virtually every time he pitched.  Shields in comparison had 11 complete games but won 8 fewer games than Verlander.  I still like Ells for MVP.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from kannaman. Show kannaman's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP : Very flawed; a pitcher faces every batter when he's in there.
    Posted by nhsteven[/QUOTE]
    Yep...Verlander faced the #9 hitter about 110 times...the #8 about 110 times....and so on.....how many of those guys had a chance against him. Ellsbury had 388 put outs and probably field a couple of hundred hits and didn't make any errors that ought to be worth something.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP : Yep...Verlander faced the #9 hitter about 110 times...the #8 about 110 times....and so on.....how many of those guys had a chance against him. Ellsbury had 388 put outs and probably field a couple of hundred hits and didn't make any errors that ought to be worth something.
    Posted by kannaman[/QUOTE]

    True for all pitchers, but those spots are stronger in the AL. Pitchers make fielding plays too. And how many AAAA pitchers do hitters face?
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from caseycsw. Show caseycsw's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

         I could understand giving Verlander another award if the best position player had just an "average MVP" type year.  There is nothing "average" about playing a stellar defensive center field, compiling tremendous offensive stats, AND interminably hitting in the clutch game after game.  Assuming that Verlander ekes out an MVP win as the MLB rumor mill seems to suggest, then maybe they do need to have a best offensive/position player type award as well. Otherwise, in the spirit of shafting Ellsbury, why don't all the Verlander-voting baseball writers just lobby to limit the end-of-season plaudits, including Rookie of the Year, to elite pitchers only...They could call it the "Gotta Hurl" amendment.  Which is what some of us will feel like doing if Verlander gets another award....

    “Pray for the dead, and fight like hell for the living.”

    -          “Mother” Mary Harris Jones (union and community organizer, born 1837 (Ireland) – 1930 (U.S.))

    You see, until a few weeks ago it seemed as if Wall Street had effectively bribed and bullied our political system into forgetting about that whole drawing lavish paychecks while destroying the world economy thing.  Then, all of a sudden, some people insisted on bringing the subject up again. And their (Occupy Wall Street) outrage has found resonance with millions of Americans. No wonder Wall Street is whining.”

    -          Paul Krugman, Princeton economist, N.Y. Times column, 10/16/11

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    My vote is for Verlander. A pitcher may not be in all the games, but he's involved in every at bat of the opposing team. Defensive players only have certain balls that are hit to them in any given game, so they're really not part of every moment of the games they're in.

    I wonder if any catcher was ever voted MVP. I think there were years where Varitek could have been part of that discussion. It's amazing how people constantly undervalue what a player brings to the table unless they belt a homerun at the right moment. Stats for batters are always involved, but the behind-the-scenes, so to speak, work of knowing batters as well as pitchers, and calling the right pitches at the right time shouldn't be overlooked. Preventing homeruns -- or even hits -- from the opposing team is just as important, especially at a critical moment in the game. IMO

    FTR this is probably a lot like my defense of Drew. It's hard to tell how many runs he has prevented, or extra bases he denied as well as how many runners he gunned down. Even though he didn't always produce runs, he definitely made it harder for runs to score. Completely overlooked stats because they probably don't exist.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from caseycsw. Show caseycsw's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    [QUOTE]My vote is for Verlander. A pitcher may not be in all the games, but he's involved in every at bat of the opposing team. Defensive players only have certain balls that are hit to them in any given game, so they're really not part of every moment of the games they're in. I wonder if any catcher was ever voted MVP. I think there were years where Varitek could have been part of that discussion. It's amazing how people constantly undervalue what a player brings to the table unless they belt a homerun at the right moment. Stats for batters are always involved, but the behind-the-scenes, so to speak, work of knowing batters as well as pitchers, and calling the right pitches at the right time shouldn't be overlooked. Preventing homeruns -- or even hits -- from the opposing team is just as important, especially at a critical moment in the game. IMO FTR this is probably a lot like my defense of Drew. It's hard to tell how many runs he has prevented, or extra bases he denied as well as how many runners he gunned down. Even though he didn't always produce runs, he definitely made it harder for runs to score. Completely overlooked stats because they probably don't exist.
    Posted by kimsaysthis[/QUOTE]
         Completely cogent argument, Kim.  If Ellsbury did not have such an incredible year, I could grudgingly live with a pitcher getting the MVP over so-so position player candidates. But to deny Ellsbury this kind of recognition after the year he had seems really unfathomable to me.....

    “Pray for the dead, and fight like hell for the living.”

    -          “Mother” Mary Harris Jones (union and community organizer, born 1837 (Ireland) – 1930 (U.S.))

    You see, until a few weeks ago it seemed as if Wall Street had effectively bribed and bullied our political system into forgetting about that whole drawing lavish paychecks while destroying the world economy thing.  Then, all of a sudden, some people insisted on bringing the subject up again. And their (Occupy Wall Street) outrage has found resonance with millions of Americans. No wonder Wall Street is whining.”

    -          Paul Krugman, Princeton economist, N.Y. Times column, 10/16/11


     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    Pitchers are "players" too.

    Batters have hitting awards too.

    This is one year where no hitter did that great, and Verlander had a once in a decade or more season. It's really a simple choice to me.
     
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  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    [QUOTE]I agree. For those who think starters don't deserve MVP because the only play every 5 days, how many hitters had 969 PAs this year? That's how many PAs against Verlander faced.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    C'mon Moonie, that's weak. Players get 3 or 4 ABs a game, wheras pitchers face 30 to 40 hitters/game, depending on innings pitched, and hits/walks/erors.

    I certainly agree that Verlander had the year that gives him a shot, but is it really fair that pitcher's are eligible for two distinguished awards, while position players, for which there is much more competetion, only one?
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP : C'mon Moonie, that's weak. Players get 3 or 4 ABs a game, wheras pitchers face 30 to 40 hitters/game, depending on innings pitched, and hits/walks/erors. I certainly agree that Verlander had the year that gives him a shot, but is it really fair that pitcher's are eligible for two distinguished awards, while position players, for which there is much more competetion, only one?
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]

    Yes, it it is totally fair. They are "players" too and can be more valuable to a team than any hitter on the team.

    Hitters have awards too, so it's not "only one".

    I'm not saying verlander should win because of his 969 PAs against, but he should not be excluded because he "only plays every 5 days". That 5th day more than makes up for the 4 days lost.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP : Yes, it it is totally fair. They are "players" too and can be more valuable to a team than any hitter on the team. Hitters have awards too, so it's not "only one". I'm not saying verlander should win because of his 969 PAs against, but he should not be excluded because he "only plays every 5 days". That 5th day more than makes up for the 4 days lost.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    I need to check my spelling, it's atrocious.
    I agree that without Verlander, the Tigers do not win the Central, and that he is clearly the MVP for his team, hands down.
    I'm not sure how they score it, whether they take the MVP from each team and then pare it down, or just concentrate on those players with the best stats.
    I know they have the Silver slugger and Kank Aaron awards for offense, but maybe they need an award for both offense and defense, something equivalent to the Cy Young. Call it the Honus Wagner award.
     

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