Verlander deserves MVP

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    [QUOTE]My vote is for Verlander. A pitcher may not be in all the games, but he's involved in every at bat of the opposing team. Defensive players only have certain balls that are hit to them in any given game, so they're really not part of every moment of the games they're in. I wonder if any catcher was ever voted MVP. I think there were years where Varitek could have been part of that discussion. It's amazing how people constantly undervalue what a player brings to the table unless they belt a homerun at the right moment. Stats for batters are always involved, but the behind-the-scenes, so to speak, work of knowing batters as well as pitchers, and calling the right pitches at the right time shouldn't be overlooked. Preventing homeruns -- or even hits -- from the opposing team is just as important, especially at a critical moment in the game. IMO FTR this is probably a lot like my defense of Drew. It's hard to tell how many runs he has prevented, or extra bases he denied as well as how many runners he gunned down. Even though he didn't always produce runs, he definitely made it harder for runs to score. Completely overlooked stats because they probably don't exist.
    Posted by kimsaysthis[/QUOTE] Thurman Munson(76'), Pudge Rodriguez(99'), Joe Mauer(09') 
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP : I need to check my spelling, it's atrocious. I agree that without Verlander, the Tigers do not win the Central, and that he is clearly the MVP for his team, hands down. I'm not sure how they score it, whether they take the MVP from each team and then pare it down, or just concentrate on those players with the best stats. I know they have the Silver slugger and Kank Aaron awards for offense, but maybe they need an award for both offense and defense, something equivalent to the Cy Young. Call it the Honus Wagner award.
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]

    I don't understand how anybody comes to that conclusion - the Tigers were 25-9 in Verlander starts, and won their division by 15 games.  They could have replaced Verlander with Lackey and still cruised to the post-season.


     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    [QUOTE]I'd vote for a positional player who had 969 PAs in 34 games. Shields was probably "more valuable" to his team's making the playoffs, so in that sense you have a point, but Verlander was the best player this year and his team made the playoffs: he should win.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    I don't think you would, because even if his team was 34-0, it would still only be the first week in May.  It's hard to ignore the fact that your MVP has no say in 80% of his games.

    On the other hand, there aren't any really good candidates for position players.  Either their teams walked away with the division, or didn't make the post-season at all in Ellsbury's case.  I might go with Ben Zobrist.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    every now and then a pitcher has a monster year and they win the mvp...im ok with that - doesnt happen al lot
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxnsl. Show maxnsl's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    [QUOTE]Pitchers are "players" too. Batters have hitting awards too. This is one year where no hitter did that great, and Verlander had a once in a decade or more season. It's really a simple choice to me.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]Ellsbury didnt  do "that great"?, Bautista "didnt do that great" ? You usually have good points but I feel you missed the boat on this one
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP : Ellsbury didnt  do "that great"?, Bautista "didnt do that great" ? You usually have good points but I feel you missed the boat on this one
    Posted by maxnsl[/QUOTE]

    I think Moon is all but disqualifying players whose team failed to make the post-season.  Personally, I agree - how valuable is anybody on a third-place team?
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from mrmojo1120. Show mrmojo1120's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

       I'm not sure why a player whose team doesn't make the play-offs should be discounted for MVP.It's not Ellsbury fault that the pitchers absolutely collapsed in September,he still played like a champion.He just couldn't carry the whole team by himself.
       It's like last year when Felix Hernandez won the Cy Young.It wasn't his fault the Mariners sucked,he pitched outstanding the whole season,and he won the award.
      Personal awards shouldn't be based on a teams play,it should be based on the individuals accomplishments.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from seannybboi. Show seannybboi's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    [QUOTE]I agree. For those who think starters don't deserve MVP because the only play every 5 days, how many hitters had 969 PAs this year? That's how many PAs against Verlander faced.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    I agree Verlander deserves MVP award.  However, Ells deserves more.  I understand your point mentioning he faced almost 1000 batters and all but Ells just had historic season by driving in more than 100 batters for a leadoff hitter.  First time in baseball history.  I don't think that's easy to do...
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    [QUOTE]   I'm not sure why a player whose team doesn't make the play-offs should be discounted for MVP.It's not Ellsbury fault that the pitchers absolutely collapsed in September,he still played like a champion.He just couldn't carry the whole team by himself.    It's like last year when Felix Hernandez won the Cy Young.It wasn't his fault the Mariners sucked,he pitched outstanding the whole season,and he won the award.   Personal awards shouldn't be based on a teams play,it should be based on the individuals accomplishments.
    Posted by mrmojo1120[/QUOTE]

    It's just not the purpose of the award.  Ellsbury was selected to the All-Star team, was awarded the Silver Slugger and the Gold Glove.  It's not like he's going un-recognized.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from kannaman. Show kannaman's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP : I think Moon is all but disqualifying players whose team failed to make the post-season.  Personally, I agree - how valuable is anybody on a third-place team?
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]
    If Ellsbury hangs on to that ball in Baltimore the Sox would have made it to the play offs...at least one game with Tampa. Far as Verlanders numbers go...there were several pitchers who faced a lot of batters and did nearly as well...Sabathia,Weaver, Shields...even Beckett. If you just look at W-L stat's ...those are very misleading....that is really a team stat...the team won those games...the offense helped out...the bullpen helped out.
    I can think of a couple of catchers that I think won MVP's...Roy Campanella and Johnny Bench...there might be others but it must have been a long time ago.
    And for Zac...yeah I can think of a bonehead that won the MVP for last place Texas....Arod...and he didn't deserve it either...they could have been in last place with out him.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxnsl. Show maxnsl's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    Actually i dont think you deserve the award if your team didnt make the playoffs. I was just pointing out Moons liberal use of the term all that great.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from kannaman. Show kannaman's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP : Yes, it it is totally fair. They are "players" too and can be more valuable to a team than any hitter on the team. Hitters have awards too, so it's not "only one". I'm not saying verlander should win because of his 969 PAs against, but he should not be excluded because he "only plays every 5 days". That 5th day more than makes up for the 4 days lost.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    I thought that was why they created the Cy Young award...because pitchers weren't valued the same way the positon players were.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP : Ellsbury didnt  do "that great"?, Bautista "didnt do that great" ? You usually have good points but I feel you missed the boat on this one
    Posted by maxnsl[/QUOTE]

    "That great" means in comparisson to past MVP hitter's numbers, and as compared to Verlander's amazingly dominant year.
    Verlander led the league in wins (24), ERA (2.40), Winning %, IP, Ks, & WHIP.

    Bautista had great numbers, but his team finished way out of it. One can argue the fairness of that criteria, but it is a factor to me. Ells had a great year too, but to me, the gold glove is meaningless.

    I'd vote:
    1) Verlander
    2) Shields
    3) Ellsbury

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    [QUOTE]   I'm not sure why a player whose team doesn't make the play-offs should be discounted for MVP.It's not Ellsbury fault that the pitchers absolutely collapsed in September,he still played like a champion.He just couldn't carry the whole team by himself.    It's like last year when Felix Hernandez won the Cy Young.It wasn't his fault the Mariners sucked,he pitched outstanding the whole season,and he won the award.   Personal awards shouldn't be based on a teams play,it should be based on the individuals accomplishments.
    Posted by mrmojo1120[/QUOTE]

    The CY Young Award is not titled "Most valuable Pitcher". If it was, then I think you'd have to look at team positioning as a factor.

    We have an award for the best pitcher. We have an award for the best hitter. We have awards for the best fielders. Then, we have an award for the most valuable player to the team and league and best overall player ...MVP.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from mrmojo1120. Show mrmojo1120's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP : It's just not the purpose of the award.  Ellsbury was selected to the All-Star team, was awarded the Silver Slugger and the Gold Glove.  It's not like he's going un-recognized.
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]

    I would think winning the Gold Glove and Silver Slugger awards lend more credence to him as a MVP candidate.

    This is from Hardballtimes.com:

    http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/blog_article/the-mvp-voting-what-are-the-standards/

     BBWAA members assigned to the National League Most Valuable Player committee are told, “There is no clear-cut definition of what Most Valuable means. It is up to the individual voter to decide who was the Most Valuable Player in each league to his team.

    The MVP need not come from a division winner or other playoff qualifier.

    “The rules of the voting remain the same as they were written on the first ballot in 1931: (1) actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense; (2) number of games played; (3) general character, disposition, loyalty and effort; (4) former winners are eligible; and (5) members of the committee may vote for more than one member of a team.”

    The MVP committee members are also urged, “to give serious consideration to all your selections, from 1 to 10." The voters understand that a 10th-place vote can influence the outcome of an election. They must fill in all 10 places on the ballot and they are to consider only regular-season performances. The writers must also, "Keep in mind that all players are eligible for MVP, including pitchers and designated hitters."
     
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    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    I have to wonder what the purpose of this thread is for some folks. If he gets the award he will have earned it. No argument / discussion here. Can we move on?

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    I think Verlander deserved the Cy Yound Award this year..But I truly believe that a position player should get the MVP...Pitchers have their award and position players have theirs..sounds pretty fair to me..
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    The writers must also, "Keep in mind that all players are eligible for MVP, including pitchers and designated hitters.

    I believe one writer kept pedro off his entire top ten votes and cost him the MVP.

    Imagine, a guy has perhaps the best season of all time, and isn't even in the guys top 10.

    In 2000, Pedro had the best ERA+ since 1880!!!! (291)
    That was better than greg Maddux in '94 and '95 (no DH), Bob gibson in 1968, Walter johnson in 1912, Clemens in 2005 and 1997.

    Pedro had the best alltime WHIP in 2000 at 0.7373. The very best of alltime! He also had an 8.5 K/BB ratio (7th best in the history of MLB).
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    Most Valuable Player.....the devils in the details and it's how one defines Valuable first and then "Most" would help us to qualify the individual players accomplishments vs his peers...

    If valuable is defined as winning and winning is defined as making the post season. If Most is defined as the player that most helped his team to win and make the post season vs his peers. Then in my mind it hard to argue that Verlander indeed doesn't deserve to be considered for the AL MVP award and I would also add that Ian Kennedy in the NL is also another pitcher worthy of MVP consideration. Even though Kershaw won the NL CY, in games started by Kennedy the dbacks record was 25-8

    The question that needs to be answered in this debate is simply. What is the criteria that the writers use to determine the MVP award and what are the qualifiers for a player to be seen as the Most Valuable. cleary there's a bias among position players and I disagree that the CY is a pitchers equivilant to the MVP becasue if that were the case then Felix Hernandez doesn't win it last year....
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from fourrings. Show fourrings's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    if i had a vote it would be for Verlander, he was the single most important player for any team in the A.L.
     
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    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    Buster Olney has predicted on Mutt and Merloni on Monday afternoon that Jacoby Ellsbury will win the AL MVP Award.  Verlander, of course, has won the Cy Young already, but Olney does not think the voting will work out in Verlander's favor.  The other players Olney mentioned within the primary voting is Bautista and Miguel Cabrera.  Not that he has vote, we can expect that Scott Boras is rooting loudly for Jacoby. 
     
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  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    [QUOTE]some what interesting is in 68, the year of the pitcher,   denny McLain won but 4 of the top 10 vote getters were pitchers in the AL MVP http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_1968.shtml#ALmvp
    Posted by pinstripezac[/QUOTE]

    I would say 30 game winners might have a good chance.
     
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    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP : Thurman Munson(76'), Pudge Rodriguez(99'), Joe Mauer(09') 
    Posted by jete02fan[/QUOTE]

    Berra : '51, '53, '55
    Campanella (The same yrs, I think)
    E. Howard : '63 (And he only hit .287)
    Bench : '70 and '72 I believe

    There's others; Cochrane, Lombardi, Dickey, & Hartnett perhaps.
     

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