Verlander deserves MVP

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP :  Steve, I'd ask Jim. However, I agree it's more a strain for an everyday, 9 inning position player as opposed to every 5th, for 6 or 7. My opinion of why pitchers are more apt to go down to injury; the body/arm isnt built to pitch.
    Posted by J-BAY


    Of course I was talking about the arm (Wang injured his foot, but that was a rare exception). His quote mentiones both.




     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from J-BAY. Show J-BAY's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP : Of course I was talking about the arm (Wang injured his foot, but that was a rare exception). His quote mentiones both.  
    Posted by nhsteven


    If in both, you mean mentally and physically.... the position player; both offensively and defensively, 9 innings, everyday.  the pitcher may be more mentally and physically strained during a start, but it's every 5th day, less innings and just defensively, in the AL. Interesting topic for a discussion.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP : If in both, you mean mentally and physically.... obviously the position player,  plays both offensively and defensively 9 innings, everyday. I think the pitcher is  more mentally strained during a start, but it's every 5th day, less innings and just defensively, in the AL. Interesting topic for a discussion.
    Posted by J-BAY


    I don't see nearly as many position players suffering career or season ending injuries, even among rookies. Also, did you know pitchers lose between 5-15 pounds after a long start?
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP : Granderson shouldn't have gotten any votes? (I don't mean 1st place votes). Why not complain about some non-Yankees, like Michael Young (a 1st place vote) & Longoria (28 vote points)? Talking about homerism.  Also, Ellsbury's 10th place vote could have NOT have been on the same ballot as Robertson, for Robertson had 1 point.  It is not unreasonable for those other Yankees to get votes as well (as long as they were, at best, middle of the pack votes.) Just an excuse to pop off about the Yankees. It seems to happen after every award, whether a Yankee wins or not.
    Posted by nhsteven


    Ironic, as your post seems to be "just an excuse to pop off about the Yankees".

    Red Sox fans have an eternal and rightful reason to p i s s and moan about MVP voting due to George "I vote for David Wells and Rick Helling but not Pedro Martinez" King of the NY Post. 
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP : Ironic, as your post seems to be "just an excuse to pop off about the Yankees". Red Sox fans have an eternal and rightful reason to p i s s and moan about MVP voting due to George "I vote for David Wells and Rick Helling but not Pedro Martinez" King of the NY Post. 
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards


    Nooo, I wouldn't have responded if you didn't pop off first. As far as George King giveing RS fans "an eternal and rightful reason to p i s s and moan about MVP voting", and as awful as that was, that's a little bit of a stretch.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from J-BAY. Show J-BAY's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP : I don't see nearly as many position players suffering career or season ending injuries, even among rookies. Also, did you know pitchers lose between 5-15 pounds after a long start?
    Posted by nhsteven


     I think it's water loss for the most part and temporary also. I think the body can endure batting, running, sliding etc much more than the shoulder can 200 innings over 6 months. goes back to why pichers report weeks before position players. conditioning, stretching etc. the body was built to move, the arm wasn't to pitch, at least to that extent
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP : I don't see nearly as many position players suffering career or season ending injuries, even among rookies. Also, did you know pitchers lose between 5-15 pounds after a long start?
    Posted by nhsteven


    That's not surprising I've lost 10 Lb's multiple times during a workout, it's mostly water weight.  THe more you weight the more waterweight you have to lose.

    I can see a big pitcher who's 6-4 210-215 easily lose 15 LB's during a game.  However if they are properly hydrating themselves....they shouldn't lose that much.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP :  I think it's water loss for the most part and temporary also. I think the body can endure batting, running, sliding etc much more than the shoulder can 200 innings over 6 months. goes back to why pichers report weeks before position players. conditioning, stretching etc. the body was built to move, the arm wasnt to pitch, at least to that extent
    Posted by J-BAY


    Agreed, but you can say that about any activity in any sport.

    As far as water loss, I would say that still qualifies as a nice physical strain; and this is with all the rehydrating they do during the game.

    Keep in mind other body parts on pitchers go too: Think Buchholz.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP : Nooo, I wouldn't have responded if you didn't pop off first. As far as George King giveing RS fans "an eternal and rightful reason to p i s s and moan about MVP voting", that's a little bit of a stretch.
    Posted by nhsteven


    King ignored the greatest season by a pitcher in 30 years, if not in the history of the game because Pedro played for the Red Sox.  That is unforgivable and George King is a disgrace to himself and the sport.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP : King ignored the greatest season by a pitcher in 30 years, if not in the history of the game because Pedro played for the Red Sox.  That is unforgivable and George King is a disgrace to himself and the sport.
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards


    Agreed, that was awful, and he shouldn't have been allowed to vote afer that.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    I almost forgot just how good that season was...I was just looking back on the stats now....Unbelievable.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP : I have already stated on another thread, unless they change the MVP and state that pitchers cannot win this award, than any MLB player is eligible.  What about the DH never winning this award.  Although, most years they are not deserving of this award, I would imagine that some years fans believe that their DH deserved this award, but didn't receive it. 
    Posted by susan250


    If he hits .400, with 70 HRs and about 200 RBIs, then I could see it.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from traven. Show traven's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    I have no issue with Verlander winning the award - he certainly deserved it.  That said...I would have liked to have seen Ells take home the award.  He had quite a season himself.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    I'd like the see the Ballot that had Ellsbury 10th. The O.P. says Pedro 2000, but Pedro 1999 should have been the MVP.  That was his most dominant season and the Red Sox made the play-offs.
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards


    I disagree. Year 2000 was about the best season by a pitcher in MLB history. 1999 was close, but 2000 was better.

    Opponents against Pedro:
    2000: .167/.213/.259/.473
    1999: .205/.248/.288/.536

    2000:  217.0 IP 18-6  1.74  0,737 WHIP  8.88 K/BB
    1999:  213.1 IP 23-4  2.07  0.923 WHIP  8.46 K/BB

    It's clear to me, nobody every had 2 straight years like that before. Arguments could be made for pitchers from long ago eras who pitched 45 complete games and such, but in my opinion, Pedro was the bestever (in those 2 years).

    2000:
    Away: 12-1  1.66  (0.681 WHIP)  .154/.206/.236/.442
    Every month his WHIP was under 0.849.
    Opponent's #3 hitter had a .372 OPS vs Pedro!
    RISP:  .133/.188/.219/.407
    High Leverage:  .149/.230/.248/.478

    Adjusted ERA+ measures how good a pitcher was compared to the league average. Pedro pitched in the AL against a DH, faced the Yanks more than most pitchers, and pitched in a hitter's park. Despite all these factors, let's look at how he compared to the alltime greats:

    1) Tim Keefe    295  (1888)
    2) Pedro          291  (2000)
    3) D. Leanoard 279  (1914)
    4 + 5) Maddux (1994 & 1995)
    6) Walter Johnson (1913)
    7) Bob Gibson  (1968)
    8) Mordecai Brown  (1906)
    9) Pedro            243  (1999)

    WHIP
    1) Pedro   0.737  (2000)
    2) Hecker, 3) Johnson, 4) Keefe, 5) Joss
    6) Maddoz  0.811  (1995)
    54) Pedro  0.9231   (2002)
    55) Pedro  0.9234   (1999)

    K/BB
    1) Saberhagen  11.00  (1994)
    2) C. Lee           10.28  (2010)
    3&4) Jim Whitney 10.00/9.86  (1884 & 1883)
    5) Schilling         9.576  (2002)
    6) Bradley          9.000  (1880)
    7) Pedro             8.875  (2000)
    8) Maddux (1997)
    9) Boyle     (1884)
    10) Pedro           8.46  (1999)

    Year 2000:
    Best Adjusted ERA+ since 1889
    Best WHIP ever.
    7th best K/BB ever (4th best since 1884).



     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from MichFan. Show MichFan's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    There is no way a pitcher is the MVP of the league.  Did he over power everyone everytime he went out,, Like once a week?  Did his team blow away everyone in the playoffs and win the WS because he won 3 games in each series?  This is a crock of chit.  Maybe Ellsbury didn't deserve it either because he didn't carry us to the WS.  He tried but he didn't.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP : I disagree. Year 2000 was about the best season by a pitcher in MLB history. 1999 was close, but 2000 was better. Opponents against Pedro: 2000: .167/.213/.259/.473 1999: .205/.248/.288/.536 2000:  217.0 IP 18-6  1.74  0,737 WHIP  8.88 K/BB 1999:  213.1 IP 23-4  2.07  0.923 WHIP  8.46 K/BB It's clear to me, nobody every had 2 straight years like that before. Arguments could be made for pitchers from long ago eras who pitched 45 complete games and such, but in my opinion, Pedro was the bestever (in those 2 years). 2000: Away: 12-1  1.66  (0.681 WHIP)  .154/.206/.236/.442 Every month his WHIP was under 0.849. Opponent's #3 hitter had a .372 OPS vs Pedro! RISP:  .133/.188/.219/.407 High Leverage:  .149/.230/.248/.478 Adjusted ERA+ measures how good a pitcher was compared to the league average. Pedro pitched in the AL against a DH, faced the Yanks more than most pitchers, and pitched in a hitter's park. Despite all these factors, let's look at how he compared to the alltime greats: 1) Tim Keefe    295  (1888) 2) Pedro          291  (2000) 3) D. Leanoard 279  (1914) 4 + 5) Maddux (1994 & 1995) 6) Walter Johnson (1913) 7) Bob Gibson  (1968) 8) Mordecai Brown  (1906) 9) Pedro            243  (1999) WHIP 1) Pedro   0.737  (2000) 2) Hecker, 3) Johnson, 4) Keefe, 5) Joss 6) Maddoz  0.811  (1995) 54) Pedro  0.9231   (2002) 55) Pedro  0.9234   (1999) K/BB 1) Saberhagen  11.00  (1994) 2) C. Lee           10.28  (2010) 3&4) Jim Whitney 10.00/9.86  (1884 & 1883) 5) Schilling         9.576  (2002) 6) Bradley          9.000  (1880) 7) Pedro             8.875  (2000) 8) Maddux (1997) 9) Boyle     (1884) 10) Pedro           8.46  (1999) Year 2000: Best Adjusted ERA+ since 1889 Best WHIP ever. 7th best K/BB ever (4th best since 1884).
    Posted by moonslav59


    Statistically 2000 was his best year but in 1999 the Red Sox went to the postseason which is why Pedro had a legit shot at the MVP. 
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP : If he hits .400, with 70 HRs and about 200 RBIs, then I could see it.
    Posted by nhsteven


    I believe that they should have a separate award for the DH since they will never win the MVP even though they may have an MVP season. 
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    There is no way a pitcher is the MVP of the league.  Did he over power everyone everytime he went out,, Like once a week?  Did his team blow away everyone in the playoffs and win the WS because he won 3 games in each series?  This is a crock of chit.  Maybe Ellsbury didn't deserve it either because he didn't carry us to the WS.  He tried but he didn't.
    Posted by MichFan

    MVP is voted on before the playoffs.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP : Statistically 2000 was his best year but in 1999 the Red Sox went to the postseason which is why Pedro had a legit shot at the MVP. 
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards

    Yes, he should have won it in 1999 as well, but in my mind, making the playoffs is a factor but not a disqualifier. Pedro's 2000 season (when compared to his era) was arguably the very best season a pitcher ever had. 

    Compare Jason Giambi's 2000 numbers to Frank Thomas, AROd and Delgado and one can see he was hardly a cut above the rest. Pedro was astronomically above his peers. He had the greatest season of all time during a hitting era!!! How many other seasons had 4 guys with a .316+ BA, 41+ HRs and 132+ RBIs all in the same league, and yet Pedro blew away the hitters. (Even Edgar batted .324  37 145 and Manny .351  38  122 and they finished 6th and 7th!)

    Pedro was MVP in '99 and '00, but 2000 was the best year.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from KRomine. Show KRomine's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    Not taking away from Verlander's season, but the Tigers won the AL Central by 15 games.  If he went .500, they still win the division. 

    So how does that make him the "most" valuable?
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    In Response to Re: Verlander deserves MVP:
    Verlander had a great year and deserved the Cy Young. He pitched 251 innings, had a ERA of 2.40, struck out 250 batters and went 24-5 those are awesome numbers. Ellsbury played in 154 games...close to 1386 innings...he had 388 put outs...that's like 130 innings worth of outs. Verlander was great for 251 innings...Ellsbury for 1386...that's the argument you have to consider. That's not even looking at Granderson or Adrian Gonzalez....it will be interesting what ever happens but for me I don't like seeing a pitcher get the MVP....there are years where a pitcher might be worthy....or there are enough candidates where the vote is split.
    Posted by kannaman

    I think the MVP is the customary award for position players and the CY Young is the MVP for pitchers. It should be clarified better but the historical clarification should be enough. I think it should take an absolutely incredible pitching year to overcome that, especially if the position players were sub par that year. I don't think this year was that type of year.

    Ellsbury led the league in TB as a CF. Lots of stolen bases, hits, XBH and even 32 HR. Gold glove award...etc. This should have been his year and if the Sox had made the playoffs it would have been IMO. 

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    Verlander carried the Tigers into the playoffs, in addition to terrific individual stat lines. His impact and leadership made players rally around him and become a better team. MVP should never be awarded to any player who is a member of a record collapse.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    I think the MVP is the customary award for position players and the CY Young is the MVP for pitchers. It should be clarified better but the historical clarification should be enough. I think it should take an absolutely incredible pitching year to overcome that, especially if the position players were sub par that year. I don't think this year was that type of year.

    Verlander led almost every big stat column.

    You are right, customarily pitchers don't win unless they had an incredible season and there were not super great hitters. That doesn't mean it's right.

    Ellsbury led the league in TB as a CF. Lots of stolen bases, hits, XBH and even 32 HR. Gold glove award...etc. This should have been his year and if the Sox had made the playoffs it would have been IMO. 

    I think you are right. The vote is taken rigth after the end of the regular season, and the Sox collapse was fesh on voter's minds. That bein said, the right guy won. It's been 11 years since we had a season better than his. Couple that with the fact that Bautista and Ellasbury played on nonplayoff teams, to me, the MVP was obvious, and they got it right. 
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Medic87. Show Medic87's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    I will always stand against ANY pitcher winning the MVP.  Yes Verlander was the most valuable pitcher, The absolute best in the game this year, but not the most valuable PLAYER.

    Agree with most,  why have the Cy young?   Just have the MVP and give it to the best player overall SP or Player.   Look at this way, it is impossible for a hitter to win a Cy Young award. the only award they can win, to recognize the best in the game is the MVP. Then some pitcher comes along and snatches Best Pitcher in the game and Best Player in the game.  Its like they are getting 2 awards for the EXACT same thing. Its complete B/S. SP/RP shouldnt even be allowed on the Ballot, I dont care if they went 30-0, give em the Cy young, thats what its for. 

    BTW   Braun or Kemp in NL?     I vote Kemp.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Verlander deserves MVP

    Not that Verlander didn't deserve the award, I have a problem with pitchers being eligible for it.
    MVP is supposed to be for the best player, defensively and OFFENSIVELY. You could make a case for National League pitchers because they do play on offense.
    I don't recall that a DH has ever won the award, and the reason is that he only plays on offense.
    If every player is eligible, then get rid of the Cy Young award. why should pitchers be eligible for both when position players are only eligible for the one.
    Has any pitcher ever won MVP without winning the CY? What's the best finish for a pitcher in the MVP balloting that didn't win the CY?
    Pitchers need help on offense and defense to win games. The CY is an individual
    award but pitchers need help to win it.
    Position players competing for the MVP get no help in putting up big numbers, it's all an individual achievement.
     
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