1. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92

    posted at 8/10/2011 2:11 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92:
    You'd think the posters here who hate "union slugs" would love this guy.
    Posted by moonslav59
    LOL!

    Seems to me no matter which side of this discussion you are on, it isn't terribly reality based. Whether you think Wake is inadequate, adequate or above average, he's in the rotation and will be out of necessity. The same with John Lackey. Andrew Miller and Weiland were poor enough of alternatives that Epstein went to market to get Bedard.

    The argument of Wake holding somebody back is IMO a way to stimulate an argument in the absence of reality. It is like comparing Ellsbury to a player that his team had no intention of trading (Kemp) and inventing a trade to stimulate debates about the merits of Ellsbury.

    Just like a trade for Kemp never existed, neither do these "young studs" being held back. Nor are they readily available. Because if they were, just like Epstein had no issues with signing Lackey knowing it made Wakefield a secondary roster piece, he would have done the same here.

    When you have two starting pitchers go down in an industry short of starting pitching, IMHO you are lucky when you can have somebody like Wakefield already on your roster.  
     

  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxfan791. Show redsoxfan791's posts

    Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92

    posted at 8/10/2011 2:54 PM EDT

    In Response to Wake ERA now at 4.92:
    team is 11-5 in his starts Wake has an ERA around 4.5 in his starts this season He has given up 3 earned runs or less in 7 of his last 10 starts and he costs a couple million a year as the NUMBER 6 starter what a bargain and what a great addition to this club, he is really helping keep us in first place right now. (Andrew Miller BTW.... a 6.28 ERA in his 6 July starts... Wake's ERA was almost 2 less runs per start)
    Posted by rameakap


    FWIW, Wake's ERA is 21% worse (per Fangraphs) than the league average.  As much as I love Wake, the team's 11-5 record in his starts is largely a function of the 6.46 runs of support he's received.  He's still providing decent value considering his salary, but he's hardly an optimal choice in the rotation.
     

  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxfan791. Show redsoxfan791's posts

    Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92

    posted at 8/10/2011 2:57 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92:
    His ERA could be much lower had our pen not allowed some of his inherited runners to score and some of the cheap hits that led to runs been turned into outs. The team is 11-5 in his starts. He has let up 3 or less ERs in 10 of his 16 starts. In 2 of his other starts, he pitched better than his line indicated.
    Posted by moonslav59


    I'm not sure moon.  According to the four major ERA estimators, here's how he's fared:

    FIP - 4.93
    xFIP - 4.68
    SIERA - 4.58
    tRA - 5.12

    He might be getting a little unlucky, but for the most part he's pitching right around his true talent level. 
     

  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92

    posted at 8/10/2011 3:13 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92:
    In Response to Wake ERA now at 4.92 : FWIW, Wake's ERA is 21% worse (per Fangraphs) than the league average.  As much as I love Wake, the team's 11-5 record in his starts is largely a function of the 6.46 runs of support he's received.  He's still providing decent value considering his salary, but he's hardly an optimal choice in the rotation.
    Posted by redsoxfan791


    791, I thought you disliked ERA as much as I do.
     

  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92

    posted at 8/10/2011 3:15 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92:
    In Response to Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92 : I'm not sure moon.  According to the four major ERA estimators, here's how he's fared: FIP - 4.93 xFIP - 4.68 SIERA - 4.58 tRA - 5.12 He might be getting a little unlucky, but for the most part he's pitching right around his true talent level. 
    Posted by redsoxfan791


    Look at percentage of inherited runners allowed compared to others.
    Look at all the cheap hits and misplayed balls that were labelled hits compared to others.
    Wake lets up a lot of HRs. That is going to hurt his FIP numbers.

     

  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from beavis. Show beavis's posts

    Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92

    posted at 8/10/2011 3:44 PM EDT

    Wake should win a Gold Glove. He has 1000.00 fielding percentage. Granted only 15 attemps.

    WHIP is nice...

    Never give up on Wake...
     

  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from beavis. Show beavis's posts

    Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92

    posted at 8/10/2011 3:53 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92:
    In Response to Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92 : Look at percentage of inherited runners allowed compared to others. Look at all the cheap hits and misplayed balls that were labelled hits compared to others. Wake lets up a lot of HRs. That is going to hurt his FIP numbers.
    Posted by moonslav59


    Appears your an proponent of Defensive Zone Rating?
     

  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92

    posted at 8/10/2011 4:24 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92:
    In Response to Wake ERA now at 4.92 : FWIW, Wake's ERA is 21% worse (per Fangraphs) than the league average.  As much as I love Wake, the team's 11-5 record in his starts is largely a function of the 6.46 runs of support he's received.  He's still providing decent value considering his salary, but he's hardly an optimal choice in the rotation.
    Posted by redsoxfan791

    good point, 791. I have no idea why a guy who has thrown 3 straight 7 IP performances, allowing 16 hits, 4 walks in 21 IP is in the rotation. He's optimally not up to snuff. Hardly a good choice. I can think of any number of pitchers who can throw a 1.00 WHIP and step right into that Sox rotation. Yes siree, bob. I mean there's Andrew Miller, and Weiland, and the recently released Millwood. Doubrount could be in there doing exactly what this 45-year-old fossil is doing. Nope, not a guy you want in the rotation, this veteran with the whiffle ball pitch. I was thinking maybe we can get a guy who can put up a 0.50 WHIP pretty easily, right? Shoot, I think I can go on the Sox mound right now and replace him, I can throw harder than 60 MPH. Maybe you can step into the rotation and replace him too. 

     

  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92

    posted at 8/10/2011 4:28 PM EDT

    I'd like to use your line if you give me permission: "Hardly an Optimal Choice In the Rotation." I was thinking of getting a t-shirt with Tim's face on the front and this statement on the back. Hell, you can take some of the share of profits. 

    M---O---R---O---N is a t-shirt I can also make and we can put a number of the Sox poster monikers on it with a Wakefield box score inscripted. 
     

  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from softylaw. Show softylaw's posts

    Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92

    posted at 8/10/2011 5:47 PM EDT

    17 years of service from Wake for about 56 million. That's only 10 million more than the Yankees jettisoned for Igawa

    Wakefield couldn't get anymore from another team. If he could, he'd be gone.
     

  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from softylaw. Show softylaw's posts

    Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92

    posted at 8/10/2011 6:01 PM EDT

    The argument of Wake holding somebody back is IMO a way to stimulate an argument in the absence of reality. It is like comparing Ellsbury to a player that his team had no intention of trading (Kemp) and inventing a trade to stimulate debates about the merits of Ellsbury.

    Just like a trade for Kemp never existed, neither do these "young studs" being held back.

    5K, is shallow patronizing comments filled with hyperbole part of your character?

    Owner and management "Intention" has nothing to do with whether a player gets traded. You are the same poster who opined that Agon, coming off surgery, wasn't a winter trade becuause the Padres owner "Moorad" made a statement that the Padres "had no intention of trading AGon last winter".

    The fact is that the Dodgers will trade Kemp for a reasonable trade offer that provides an immediate everyday MLB young talent plus additional higher level prospects. Alright, pal. Get it.

    Of course, you youself have gone to great lengths to opine on Ellsbury post FA. And it's a legitimate topic, short term (phillies)and long term to see the gaping hole in the OF with all left footed shoes.

    As for Wakefield, your hyperbole "studs" exposes your disengenuine motives. You know the landscape of marignal young pitchers can match, let me use your style, "an old stud" like "the great" Wakefield. But, by giving the innings to young talent, it is an investment with an eye towards the future.

    If you want to debate merits, 5K, let's do that. If you want to patronize, put me back on ignore like you claim you have done. I'm a big boy. I don't put anyone on ignore.
     

  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from fizsh. Show fizsh's posts

    Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92

    posted at 8/10/2011 6:01 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92:
    In Response to Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92 : Good chance I'll be at that game. I plan on catching two of the three here in Seattle. My comment on VMART was in relation to his past performance with his pitching staffs. I totally respect him as a gamer and a hitter.
    Posted by harness


    Hey harness, I will be at all 3, which will include a Sounders/Mariners double-header on Saturday.
     

  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92

    posted at 8/10/2011 6:15 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92:
    In Response to Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92 : Appears your an proponent of Defensive Zone Rating?
    Posted by beavis

    I like using many tools to rate a fielder.

    UZR/150 is a better tool than just using Fldg%, but is flawed.
    RF/9 is flawed.
    The Fielding Bible is flawed.
    The GG voting system is a joke.

    I use my own personal observations, and I have watched every Sox game this year and about 99% of all Sox games since 1981. I watch several other teams play, but not enough to make comparative judgements without the aid of stats, metrics, and expert opinions.

    I assume you are relating this to my discussion of some cheap runs allowed by Wake and releivers who allowed several of his runners to score.

    1) It's not like Wake left the games with bases loaded and no outs and releivers let a run or two score; we are talking 2 outs-man on first. 

    2) I'm not just talking about Youk's booted non-error play, drew's "non-error" dropped fly ball, or Jacoby's wrong route taken on a catchable ball that all led to runs, but also the many many bunt hits, seeing eye singles, runners then advancing on ground balls, and later scoring on a sac fly. Yes, these are legitimate "earned runs", but some are more earned than others, and I feel Wake has more borderline "earned runs" than other starters on this staff. Yes, he also lets up more HRs/9 than any other starter, so one could argue it all evens out. I realize this is just my opinion, but I do not think I am showing favoritism towards Wake or being a "homer" here. I just have not seen the same extent of cheap runs and inherited runs allowed to score with other Sox starters.

    3) I have never been a big fan of ERA as "the stat of choice". This is not a cherry-picking adventure like softy does. I do not change criteria to fit my position. I'm not even a fan of Wake. Long before this Wake discussion ever started, I was advocating WHIP, Quality start %, near Quality start %, Opponents OPS against, and ERA+ all ahead of just plain old unadjusted ERA. To me Wake's ERA should really be about 4.20 to 4.40 this year, not even counting park adjustments. It could easily be under 4.00 with a little better "luck". 

    4) Even if you keep his ERA at 4.92 (4.95 as a starter), he still is a top 5 healthy starter on this team. His 1.288 WHIP is very respectable and 3rd best among healthy Sox starters. His WHIP has gone down 2 straight years. His IP per start (6.25) is 3rd on the team. His BB/9 (2.5) is the best on the staff from 2010-2011 (after his back sugery).

    To think this guy is on the top of many poster's list of Sox players in need of replacement or improving upon is totally ridiculous. Wake is our 6th starter who has just started 15 straight games because 2 of our guys are hurt. The club has gone 11-5 in his starts, and he has pitched well enough for any team to win (even low scoring teams) in 9-11 of those starts. He is not this team's "problem". He is not holding back any young stud pitching prospects. He is not deserving of this disrespect. 
     

  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from softylaw. Show softylaw's posts

    Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92

    posted at 8/10/2011 7:20 PM EDT

    Wakefield is the worst fielding pitcher in baseball. He doesn't run, he waddles.
     

  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92

    posted at 8/10/2011 7:28 PM EDT

    Still no names...

    just regurgitated drivel.
     

  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92

    posted at 8/10/2011 11:43 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92:
    In Response to Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92 : Hey harness, I will be at all 3, which will include a Sounders/Mariners double-header on Saturday.
    Posted by fizsh


    You're a great baseball fan, Fizsh.
    If ya get a chance, leave me a message on my home page and let me know where about's you'll be sitting. I enjoy meeting true RedSox fans.
     

  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92

    posted at 8/10/2011 11:47 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92:
    In Response to Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92 : good point, 791. I have no idea why a guy who has thrown 3 straight 7 IP performances, allowing 16 hits, 4 walks in 21 IP is in the rotation. He's optimally not up to snuff. Hardly a good choice. I can think of any number of pitchers who can throw a 1.00 WHIP and step right into that Sox rotation. Yes siree, bob. I mean there's Andrew Miller, and Weiland, and the recently released Millwood. Doubrount could be in there doing exactly what this 45-year-old fossil is doing. Nope, not a guy you want in the rotation, this veteran with the whiffle ball pitch. I was thinking maybe we can get a guy who can put up a 0.50 WHIP pretty easily, right? Shoot, I think I can go on the Sox mound right now and replace him, I can throw harder than 60 MPH. Maybe you can step into the rotation and replace him too. 
    Posted by dannycater


    Sarcasm aside, you are only making 791's point by drawing analogies to Miller or Weiland or Millwood. Better to ask him how the other 20 starters on his "FIP list"  would fare pitching in the A.L. East...in a notorious hitter's park.
     

  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from softylaw. Show softylaw's posts

    Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92

    posted at 8/11/2011 12:04 AM EDT

    You dimwit! Take a look at Weiland's 2nd start! I'd take Weiland over Wakefield and a lifetime supply of Duke's Potato Salad!

    I undestand those 2 starts were terrible, 6 IP and 3 ER in start #2. Wakefield is like clockwork, a launching pad that never stops launcing homers.
     

  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92

    posted at 8/11/2011 12:13 AM EDT

    A poster that never stops 'launcing' hatred

    Wake is a great #6 starter, kids had chances and failed... too bad. Stats don't lie, only Softlaw does:-)

    If Miller had an ERA of 3.44 instead of 5.44, Wake would be back in the pen or Bedard would be on a different team, its that simple.
     

  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from softylaw. Show softylaw's posts

    Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92

    posted at 8/11/2011 12:15 AM EDT

    For pitchers with more than 10 starts, Wakefield gives up HR's at an elite level. Every 6 innings, at least one ball is launched and "no doubt long gone".

    More importantly, his ERA is near 5 and ovre 5 for over 2 years.

    I know, Board members, Wakefield is simply the best option in all of world baseball! Ha ha ha ha ha ha!
     

  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92

    posted at 8/11/2011 1:07 AM EDT

    Blyleven gave up a ton of dingers. 50 one year...in a pitching era. He's in the HOF.
     

  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from softylaw. Show softylaw's posts

    Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92

    posted at 8/11/2011 2:20 AM EDT

    Did Blyleven have a 5 plus ERA for over 2 years and an ERA as high as the legendary Wakefield? No, he did not.

     

  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from softylaw. Show softylaw's posts

    Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92

    posted at 8/11/2011 2:23 AM EDT

    kids had chances and failed... too bad.

    I don't think a 2nd career start of 3 ER 6 IP is failure.

    Now, your clueless comments about Manny going to NY and Tex going to Boston and AGon coming in 2010 are a failure!

    Knock off the little rant, you stalking lunatic.
     

  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92

    posted at 8/11/2011 10:32 AM EDT

    You've been proven wrong on Wake, humiliated, exposed, shown facts, stats, truth, etc.

    End of story

    We all know you are a petty hateful angry man who is not a fan of the sox... so your rants are well known and your persona reviled on this board

    but even a person of small intellect as yourself should just give up when shown OVER AND OVER to be 100% statistically WRONG
     

  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Wake ERA now at 4.92

    posted at 8/11/2011 11:00 AM EDT

    33 pitcher in MLB have a 5.00 ERA from 2009-2011 (15+ starts).
    That's an average of a little more than 1 per team. If there were so many "elite young" or "elite FA" pitchers out there, don't you think teams would be picthing them instead of these guys? The fact is, a 5.00+ ERA is not, in and of itself, grounds for demotion. I'm waiting for you next spin and goalpost move.

    On average there has been one 5.00+ ERA on every team that has made the ALCS since 2004. This proves that most winning teams, win with a 5.00+ guy in their top 5 starters. Wake is our 6th starter. Cue: spin and further goalpost moving. (Hint: next goalpost move or spin: try to do the research yourself before you spew utter nonsense.)