Wakefield and Varitek

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from rgmfick. Show rgmfick's posts

    Re: Wakefield and Varitek

    Much emphasis devoted to Wakefield and Varitek.  Doubt Tim will be in a Red Sox uniform, unless in some other capacity than as a pitcher again.  I believe the prmary catching duo will be Saltalamacchia and Lavarnway who might also share hitting as the DH with Youk, Lowrie and AGON, particularly if Big Papi is not back.  It that even, possibly Varitek may be invited to ST to make the team as the 3rd catcher since the Red Sox will have more room on the bench for a third catcher.  The Red Sox also are likely to bring some defensive catching specialists, Dusty Brown who is currently in the Pirates organization comes to mind, as he and Chris Iannetta, who was just acquired by the Angels, are 2 of the best defensive catchers in the MLs.i

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from sinjin5000. Show sinjin5000's posts

    Re: Wakefield and Varitek

    time for both to go, the RS need to get younger, both have done great things for the RS, but thats no reason to continue keeping the on the team when youger players can do a better job.

    It's also time to let Ortiz go, he's a one tool player, and a old slow one at that. 
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from sinjin5000. Show sinjin5000's posts

    Re: Wakefield and Varitek

    time for both to go, the RS need to get younger, both have done great things for the RS, but thats no reason to continue keeping the on the team when youger players can do a better job.

    It's also time to let Ortiz go, he's a one tool player, and a old slow one at that. 
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: Wakefield and Varitek

    His PB + WPs numbers

    Catcher is not responsible for WP, prevaricating dim bulb.

    The Rockies have agreed to sign Ramon Hernandez to two-year contract worth $6.5MM

    I said to offer the superior offer 1 year 3 to 4M, plus player opt out and team option buyout year 2 at team option 3 to 4M buyout at 2M to guarantee him up to 6M and still retain the right to cash in on big year as FA. Needless to say, he would already be signed to a 1 year deal CBT 2012 3M.

    What next, Moon, Varitek and Wastefield for 3 or 4M, 2012 CBT 3-4M?  

    And, Moon, you claimed Hernandez was at or near top of FA catchers and would get 5M base. 3.25M base, lower end of my 3 to 4M base budget.

    And you want to offer Varitek 1.5M MLB contract, when no such market exists because Varitek's and Drew's starting team winning % is not part of their market value. Absurd. 

    Red Sox need to now go with Salty and Lavarnway, and offer a minor league contract to old veteran catcher and park veteran in AAA, not drinking beer in Fenway clubhouse.  
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Wakefield and Varitek

    His PB + WPs numbers 

    Catcher is not responsible for WP...

    I know. And, i also know you hate when we use your own warped criteria against you.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: Wakefield and Varitek

    Varitek is about the passed balls. You smeared in WP because you knew Varitek does not match up with Hernandez.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Wakefield and Varitek

    In Response to Re: Wakefield and Varitek:
    [QUOTE]Varitek is about the passed balls. You smeared in WP because you knew Varitek does not match up with Hernandez.
    Posted by hankwilliams[/QUOTE]

    No, you used WPs against VTek in 2009 and 2010, because he had only 1 PB in each of those seasons and that didn't support your position that he had become immobile behind the plate. I laughed at your usage of WPs to judge catchers by then, but when someone uses the same warped criteria that you used against those you hate against one you want, you go into denial mode and the fact that you distorted VTek's pretty  amazing PB% from 2009-2010 (2 PBs in 1,200 innings)

    BTW, Vtek has 8 PBs in his last 1,774 innings (3 years). Hernandez has 5. The difference is 1 per year.

    Also, I had said I was all for getting Hernandez, if we traded Salty (something I still want done), but I knew that wasn't going to happen.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: Wakefield and Varitek

    VTek has been a backup for years. Your numbers still show Varitek is washed up. Nice try on the smear attempt. 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Wakefield and Varitek

    No, you used WPs against VTek in 2009 and 2010, because he had only 1 PB in each of those seasons and that didn't support your position that he had become immobile behind the plate. I laughed at your usage of WPs to judge catchers by then, but when someone uses the same warped criteria that you used against those you hate against one you want, you go into denial mode and the fact that you distorted VTek's pretty  amazing PB% from 2009-2010 (2 PBs in 1,200 innings)

    BTW, Vtek has 8 PBs in his last 1,774 innings (3 years). Hernandez has 5. The difference is 1 per year.

    Also, I had said I was all for getting Hernandez, if we traded Salty (something I still want done), but I knew that wasn't going to happen.

    VTek has been a backup for years. Your numbers still show Varitek is washed up. Nice try on the smear attempt.  (softy)

    Comparing Vtek, a back-up catcher, to another back-up catcher is a pretty fair comparison in my book. 

     BTW, Hernandez has about 1,840 innings over the past 3 years... about 65 innings more than VTek in the same 3 year span.



     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from bballfan99. Show bballfan99's posts

    Re: Wakefield and Varitek

    i loved both guys over the years!!! but it is the WORD "Years" has me thinking new.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Wakefield and Varitek

    I want "new", "younger", and "better" too, but realistically, we don't have a lot of money to spend on out back-up catcher and 6/7th starter after filling the 4/5 slots, closer slot, and DH. 

    If we let our payroll go up to $190+M, by all means... bye bye VTek & Wake!
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: Wakefield and Varitek

    but realistically, we don't have a lot of money to spend on out back-up catcher and 6/7th starter

    That has to be one of your dumbest ever comments. The Red Sox don' have to have a lot of money to obtain a back-up catcher and reject starter. 1.5M should take care of both, and both will be under 40. 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Wakefield and Varitek

    ...like what Wang and Hernandez got?

    You get what you pay for, unless you get lucky.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from rgmfick. Show rgmfick's posts

    Re: Wakefield and Varitek

    No need to slam Jason Varitek, a  great trade acquisition along with Derek Lowe and our WS catcher in 2004 and 2007. Jason has to go down with Pudge Fisk as the 2 modern day Red Sox catchers, nobody else is close. Time has moved on, Lavarnway and Saltalamacchia have upsides with their bats, Ryan I think in time may be the better all round defensive catcher and particularly if Big Papi is not re-signed Lavarnway and Salty may do significant hitting as the DH and the numbers would allow the team to carry a 3rd defensive specialist as a catcher on the bench.  Iannetta just went to the Angels, Dusty Brown, one of the best defensive catcher, may be available from the Pirates, possibly Mark Wagner or Luis Exposito could also fill that role?  Francona's loyalty to our hometown favorite Tim Wakefield may have cost the Red Sox necessary wins and it is time for Tim to move on to another role, which I feel pretty certain the Red Sox would encourage as a team "goodwill ambassador", unless of course Tim decides to pitch elsewhere.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Wakefield and Varitek

     Francona's loyalty to our hometown favorite Tim Wakefield may have cost the Red Sox necessary wins and it is time for Tim to move on to another role, which I feel pretty certain the Red Sox would encourage as a team "goodwill ambassador", unless of course Tim decides to pitch elsewhere.

    Who could he have started that would have done better? 

    The team went 12-11 with Wake, and he had more blown leads by the pen than any other Sox starter.

    If anything, Tito's loyalty to Lackey, CC, and Drew (early on) was what hurt the most.
    Take a look at the bottom tERA's of the top 94 AL pitchers in 2011 (14 teams x 7 starters = 94):

          (with Games started) 
    94 Matusz   8.04  (10)
    93 O'Sull     6.73  (12)
    92 Miller     6.44  (12)
    91 Drabek  6.42  (14)
    90 Talbot   6.27   (12)
    89 Reyes   5.66   (25)
    88 Z Stew  5.64  (11)
    87 Chatwd 5.57  (25)
    86 Hunter  5.57  (11)
    85 Litsch    5.48  (8)
    84 Berg      5.48  (12)
    83 Lackey 5.41   (28)
    82 Slowey 5.40  (8)
    81 Blackb  5.37  (26)
    80 Hughes 5.36  (14)     (7th starters by tERA)
    79 Arrieta  5.34  (22)
    78 Duffy     5.33  (20)
    77 Penny   5.32  (31)
    76 Cecil      5.26  (20)
    75 Simon   5.19  (16)
    74 Davies  5.17  (13)
    73 Burnett 5.16  (32)
    72 Furb      5.14  (12)
    71 Villan    5.12  (13)
    70 Guthrie 5.09  (32)
    69 Pineiro 5.03   (24)
    68 Wake    5.02  (23)
    67 Beaven 4.98  (15)
    66 Harden  4.91 (6th starters)
    65 Garcia   4.88  (25)
    64 Tomlin  4.83  (26)
    63 Carm    4.82  (32)
    62 W Dav   4.80  (29)
    61 Duens   4.70  (28)
    60  Chen    4.68  (25)
    59 Ogando 4.65  (29)
    58 C Lewis 4.62  (32)
    57 Gomez   4.60  (10)
    56 Alvarez  4.58  (10)
    55 Holland  4.56  (32)
    54 Hochev  4.54  (31)
    53 Scherz   4.54  (33)
    52 Britton  4.51   (28)  (5th starters)
    51 Buerhle 4.50  (31)  (4th starters)

    That's a pretty long list of 43 starters with tERA's at 4.50 or over.
    Wake rated as a top 6th starter. Nobody is saying the guy is great, but look at how many did worse than him, and how much cash some of them made. 

    There were 26 starters in the AL with tERAs over 5.00. That's almost 2 per team on average. 

    Do you think if there was anyone better in MLB or the minors, GMs would have tried them out? Look what it took to trade for Bedard- 2 months of an injury-prone starter cost a very good OF prospect.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: Wakefield and Varitek

    like what Wang and Hernandez got?

    You get what you pay for, unless you get lucky.

    Hernandez was a starter contract, not a back-up. Red Sox have Salty, and can add Lavarnway to active roster for zero cost increase. 

    That leaves 1.5M for someone besides 45 year old Wastefield. Bedard made less than that as 2011 FA contract. There are more than a dozen under 40 profiles who will cost no more than that, but you want to spend 3M on Varisuk and Wastefield because you claim the Red Sox can't afford anyone else. Absurd!
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Wakefield and Varitek

    like what Wang and Hernandez got?

    You get what you pay for, unless you get lucky.

    Hernandez was a starter contract, not a back-up. Red Sox have Salty, and can add Lavarnway to active roster for zero cost increase. 

    I have said I would have loved to have Hernandez, but though we need all the money for pitching and papi (or another DH). I do not think he is still the above average defensive player he used to be, but he still throws well. If we had gotten him, I'd have traded Salty andn made Lava the back-up. 

    That leaves 1.5M for someone besides 45 year old Wastefield. Bedard made less than that as 2011 FA contract. There are more than a dozen under 40 profiles who will cost no more than that, but you want to spend 3M on Varisuk and Wastefield because you claim the Red Sox can't afford anyone else. Absurd!

    You lie again. I have said there are many options, but most cost more... not all cost more. I even said, I'd be happy to get guys better than Wake and VTek if we can afford it. 

    You've already missed the Wang number by 300%, but there may be a few steals at $1-1.5M that might be the next Garcia or Colon. We'll see. I hope you are right, but I wouldn't bet on an oh for 168 streak.

    Let's have a look at what some starting pitchers have signed for already:
    Sabathia    $24.4M x 5
    R. Dempster $14M x 1
    Wainwright $11.5M x 2

    B. Chen        $4.5M x 2 
      (35 in June: since 2006, 69 GS/ ERA 4.73/ tERA 5.08/ WHIP 1.43)

    C-M Wang    $4M x 1   
      (32 in March: since 2008, 35 GS/ ERA 5.36/ tERA 4.89/ WHIP 1.46)

    F. Garcia      $4M x 1  
      (36 in Oct., since 2007, 76 GS/ ERA 4.40 /tERA 5.07/ WHIP 1.36)

    Wake...since:
                     2007: 124 GS/ ERA 4.82/ tERA 4.68/ WHIP 1.34
                     2008:   93 GS/ ERA 4.84/ tERA 4.66/ WHIP 1.34
                     2009:   63 GS/ ERA 5.18/tERA  4.66/ WHIP 1.42

      Here's what's left:
    Colon, Cook, Davies, DDavis, Duke, Francis, Galarraga, Garland, Harang, Harden
    LHernandez, Iwakuma, AJackson, Kazmir, Kuroda, RLopez, Maholm, Marquis, Millwood, Mitre, Oswalt, Penny, Pineiro, Talbot, JVazquez, Wada, Wakefield, Webb, Willis, CJWilson, Young
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: Wakefield and Varitek

    , I'd be happy to get guys better than Wake and VTek if we can afford it. 

    You've already missed the Wang number by 300%,

    You lie................I never predicted what Wang would sign for, I said what to offer him and a half dozen other veteran rejects.

    You are advocating spending 3M on Wastefield and Varisuk, talking about nothing else can be afforded. Then you claim you would like to see something better but suggest it can't be afforded. Absurd! Varisuk is not needed at all, and neither is Wastefield. I'd say 3M will net more than one veteran starter FA under 40 who is capable bottom tier rotation material. In fact, there is no doubt about it.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: Wakefield and Varitek

     I'd be happy to get guys better than Wake and VTek if we can afford it.

    Lavarnway is a zero cost, so that leaves the 3M you want to spend or claim Red Sox can't afford to spend elsewhere. Absurd! 3M will get one or two veteran pitchers under 40 who have more than the zero chance Wastefield has of pitching under 5 plus ERA.

    You lie, I never claimed what Wang would sign for, I said what to offer Want and a half dozen or more one year options to get 2 or 3 under MLB and minor league contracts.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Wakefield and Varitek

    I'd be happy to get guys better than Wake and VTek if we can afford it. 

    Lavarnway is a zero cost, 

    Duh.  When did I claim otherwise? 

    igning Hernandez would have cost over $3M... three Mil we don't have if we sign Papi a closer and 2 starters.

    so that leaves the 3M you want to spend or claim Red Sox can't afford to spend elsewhere.

    Just signing Papi to what you suggest puts us at or over the luxury tax mark. We need SPs and RPs (and a RH'd OF'er). There's not even $3M for that, let alone the luxury of upgrading catchers.

     Absurd! 3M will get one or two veteran pitchers under 40 who have more than the zero chance Wastefield has of pitching under 5 plus ERA. 

    You wanted Ramon Hernandez, so we could get 2 scrub pitchers for our 4/5 slots? You don't think adding $3M can getbetter pitchers or maybea  Cody Ross type for RF?


    You lie, I never claimed what Wang would sign for, I said what to offer Want and a half dozen or more one year options to get 2 or 3 under MLB and minor league contracts.

    You named Wang as a possible $1M type guy. You were 300% off.

    I know numbers mean nothing to you, except Wake's ERA, but look at these numbers and what they signed at...

    B. Chen        $4.5M x 2 
      (35 in June: since 2006, 69 GS/ ERA 4.73/ tERA 5.08/ WHIP 1.43)

    C-M Wang    $4M x 1   
      (32 in March: since 2008, 35 GS/ ERA 5.36/ tERA 4.89/ WHIP 1.46)

    F. Garcia      $4M x 1  
      (36 in Oct., since 2007, 76 GS/ ERA 4.40 /tERA 5.07/ WHIP 1.36)

    Wake...since:
                     2007: 124 GS/ ERA 4.82/ tERA 4.68/ WHIP 1.34
                     2008:   93 GS/ ERA 4.84/ tERA 4.66/ WHIP 1.34
                     2009:   63 GS/ ERA 5.18/tERA  4.66/ WHIP 1.42
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: Wakefield and Varitek

    Cherry picker, and Wastfields 3.75M numbers are terrible.

    You don't have a clue on the 2012 CBT threshold, and spending 3M for Wastefield and Varisuk is not saving money by buying chicken crap. Hernandez cost is abated by Varisuk 1.5M and making Salty expendable, not that his carrying charge is more than nominal. 

    Needless to say, you keep trying to make a case for Wastefield by resorting to snipets from 2006 to 2009. Sad.

    I want you to deal with your illness by repeating that Tim Wakefield is a fat old pitcher who stinks as a pitcher. Give it up! 
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Wakefield and Varitek

    You don't have a clue on the 2012 CBT threshold, and spending 3M for Wastefield and Varisuk is not saving money by buying chicken crap. 

    Set me straight then. Where are we going to be after arb and pre-arb signings? 
    I say about $160M. 

    After pension contributions, what is the luxury cap number? 
    I say about $168M ($178M-$10M)

    I have us down at about $8M to spend and stay at the cap. If I'm wrong about the pension, I'll be the first to admit it, but that would still leave us just $18M to spend on...

    Your numbers:
    Papi $14M
    Ramon $4M

    Then what?
    You haven't even addressed the staff yet, fool!

    Hernandez cost is abated by Varisuk 1.5M and making Salty expendable, not that his carrying charge is more than nominal. 

    Salty made Jack last year. I suggested trading him long before you, and the savings would be minimal, but it does open up a slot for Lava. (I have also said Vtek is not a good fit with Lava, because both hit LHPs better than RHPs.)

    Needless to say, you keep trying to make a case for Wastefield by resorting to snipets from 2006 to 2009. Sad. 

    No fool. My snippets are from 
    2006 to present.
    2007 to present.
    2008 to present.
    2009 to present.

    Your reading comp skills are shot.

    I said "since 2009..." etc...

    If you meant to say use a consistent time frame, then let's look at your cherry-picked time frame: 2009-2011.

    Wake:   414 IP/ 21 GS-yr/ 1.42 WHIP/ 4.66 tERA/ 5.18 ERA
    Wang:   104 IP/  7 GS-yr/ 1.60 WHIP/ 5.25 tERA/ 6.63 ERA
    Chen:   458 IP/ 25 GS-yr/ 1.37 WHIP/ 4.75 tERA/ 4.26 ERA
    Garcia: 360 IP/ 21 GS-yr/1.34 WHIP/ 4.82 tERA/4.17 ERA

    I want you to deal with your illness by repeating that Tim Wakefield is a fat old pitcher who stinks as a pitcher. Give it up! 

    Wake is no fatter than Lackey or Beckett. He is not a great pitcher at all. I dislike the guy personally. I could care less if he gets the record or not. I look at the team record with him, his WHIP (a stat I have valued loing before the Wake debate began, and you did too, before it proved you wrong), and his tERA. I look at the game logs and see that despite 25 HRs, the opps hit him very weakly and got lucky with misplayed balls by Youk and Ells, bunt hits galore, PBs, and releif pitchers that allowed more of his runners to score than any other Sox starter. You never even acknowledge those truths. You distort, lie and spred hate.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Wakefield and Varitek

    Simple fact is that if Tim had anything left in the tank he would not of needed weeks to earn his 200th win - he would have been able to step up and pitch just one good game in that stretch if he had even a gallon of gas left in his career.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Wakefield and Varitek

    In Response to Re: Wakefield and Varitek:
    [QUOTE]Simple fact is that if Tim had anything left in the tank he would not of needed weeks to earn his 200th win - he would have been able to step up and pitch just one good game in that stretch if he had even a gallon of gas left in his career.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    You're seriously judging him on an 8 game stretch? 

    4 of those games he did OK...

    7.0 IP  3 Hits  3 ERs
    6.2 IP  5 Hits  3 ERs
    7.0 IP  8 hits   3 ERs  (2 unearned runs, and a blown lead after Wake left)
    8.0 IP  9 hits   4 ERs
    Plus...
    4.0IP   3 hits   0 ERs (in relief)

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Wakefield and Varitek

    Okay you convinced me. I hope we re-sign him to a 3 year deal and he is named as the #3 starter.  Laughing
     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share