We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum

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    Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum

    I'm sorry, soxdog67, I didn't mean to call you names.
     
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    Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum

    In Response to Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum : Too bad BOTOX but the shoe fits! Oh, and for the record, you initiated the childish name-calling comments...so you can where that shoe on your other foot.
    Posted by Soxdog67[/QUOTE]

    Ummm which foot should I WHERE  it on???? Lmao.
     
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    Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum

    Today' game again shows that Francona has no idea when to pull a pitcher. He again waied until the horse had left the barn to make his move. Now would the Blue Jays still have scored more against a reliefer, we don't know, but AS usual Terry waited until it was 7 to 0, thus once again putting so much pressure on the offense to come back that it is unreal how many times he does that.
    Cannot Terry see that Lackey was struggling mightly and gotten him out when it was  4 or 5 to 0? NO Terry waits until it's virtally to late, then out he comes. I guess Francona worries more about his starters eating innings than actually winning the game. That may explain why guys like Wakefield or a Lackey are allowed to let the opponent build up such a large early lead.

    But again after all we who question Francona know nothing about the game, other wise we would never question the GREATEST MANAGER IN SOX HISTORY. 
     
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    Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum

    In Response to Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum:
    [QUOTE]Today' game again shows that Francona has no idea when to pull a pitcher. He again waied until the horse had left the barn to make his move. Now would the Blue Jays still have scored more against a reliefer, we don't know, but AS usual Terry waited until it was 7 to 0, thus once again putting so much pressure on the offense to come back that it is unreal how many times he does that. Cannot Terry see that Lackey was struggling mightly and gotten him out when it was  4 or 5 to 0? NO Terry waits until it's virtally to late, then out he comes. I guess Francona worries more about his starters eating innings than actually winning the game. That may explain why guys like Wakefield or a Lackey are allowed to let the opponent build up such a large early lead. But again after all we who question Francona know nothing about the game, other wise we would never question the GREATEST MANAGER IN SOX HISTORY. 
    Posted by peanutandme[/QUOTE]

    The thing you're missing is that most other managers would probably have stayed with Lackey just as long.  The last series we played against the Jays, Farrell left Morrow in until he gave up 9 runs, and Drabek until he gave up 8 runs.  



     
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    Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum

    In Response to Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum:
    [QUOTE]The various pros and cons for Francona's management style are well-known since 5 years and it is a bit boring now to re-hash them. I think the question is this : Is the RS success since 2003 linked more to the new ownership than to the new manager ? If so , then Grady Little would have eventually won the WS (or a Buck Showalter or  any half -decent manager) . In this light , the success is attributable exclusively to the new payroll & ownership more than to the guy drawing up the line-up card (a similar criticism is levelled at Girardi for example). Isn't RS success simply a case of high payroll compared to the the league average? And if this is so, then we shld enjoy a similar success to Yankee success (ie 2 WS per decade). If we do not, then it is due to failures of the coach making bad decisions during play-offs. I believe that everyone has been patient with Francona's "being there"style of management in the belief that another WS ring is right around the corner. But if this doesn't translate into a ring after spending so much and being given the "team of the decade"- then at what point should we start looking for a more hands-on manager (i.e. Maddon). Rgds
    Posted by TheFutureNow[/QUOTE]

    maddon is 3 times the manager francona is. ive said it elsewhere, terry is great to have around to make the palyers fel good, but you need a 2nd manager to actually manage the game and the lineup.
     
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    Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum

    In Response to Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum:
    [QUOTE]Today' game again shows that Francona has no idea when to pull a pitcher. He again waied until the horse had left the barn to make his move. Now would the Blue Jays still have scored more against a reliefer, we don't know, but AS usual Terry waited until it was 7 to 0, thus once again putting so much pressure on the offense to come back that it is unreal how many times he does that. Cannot Terry see that Lackey was struggling mightly and gotten him out when it was  4 or 5 to 0? NO Terry waits until it's virtally to late, then out he comes. I guess Francona worries more about his starters eating innings than actually winning the game. That may explain why guys like Wakefield or a Lackey are allowed to let the opponent build up such a large early lead. But again after all we who question Francona know nothing about the game, other wise we would never question the GREATEST MANAGER IN SOX HISTORY. 
    Posted by peanutandme[/QUOTE]

    if he was concerned about innings and conceding the game, he should have let lackey pitch 8 innings minimum. if he wanted to win he should have pulled him as soon as he saw he had no stuff ie 2-4 runs. a genius he is not. maddon is such a better manager than terry. terry would be a great bench coach.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxnewmex. Show soxnewmex's posts

    Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum

    tito manages players well but not so good at managing the actual games; yes, give me maddon any day over tito, not so dependent on percentages ala tito and giardi, goes from the gut sometimes
     
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    Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum

    In Response to Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum:
    [QUOTE]tito manages players well but not so good at managing the actual games; yes, give me maddon any day over tito, not so dependent on percentages ala tito and giardi, goes from the gut sometimes
    Posted by soxnewmex[/QUOTE]

    my sentimennts exactly!
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum

    I had no issue when he was pulled. Tito didnt panic after 4-5 runs early Knowing the sox could gat back in it and hoping lackey could right the ship and not burn the whole BP..He  (Lackey) had a short leash in the 3rd..I dont agree with everything Tito does(far from it), but this Im OK with..
     
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    Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum

    In Response to Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum:
    [QUOTE]I had no issue when he was pulled. Tito didnt panic after 4-5 runs early Knowing the sox could gat back in it and hoping lackey could right the ship and not burn the whole BP..He  (Lackey) had a short leash in the 3rd..I dont agree with everything Tito does(far from it), but this Im OK with..
    Posted by southpaw777[/QUOTE]

    "AND NOT BURN THE WHOLE BP"   There it is, now the BP will be fresh for the Sept push. Everyone knows that games after mid Sept are more important than games in April, May or June.......oops wait, I meant to say April, May, June or JULY!
    Did you see Farrell whispering and snickering with his coaches?? He told them that there would be a Francona Factor, but he, and they, were surprised that it happened so early in the game. He knew Francona would trot Lackey out there for the 3rd. BINGO, there's the Factor.
     
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    Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum

    In Response to Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum : "AND NOT BURN THE WHOLE BP"   There it is, now the BP will be fresh for the Sept push. Everyone knows that games after mid Sept are more important than games in April, May or June.......oops wait, I meant to say April, May, June or JULY! Did you see Farrell whispering and snickering with his coaches?? He told them that there would be a Francona Factor, but he, and they, were surprised that it happened so early in the game. He knew Francona would trot Lackey out there for the 3rd. BINGO, there's the Factor.
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]

    Ain't about September Boosox.  Its about this series.  He goes to aceves in the 3rd, then the pen is looking real short for the next few days.  You always trot out this "fresh for the sept. push" retort when people talk of saving the pen.  It shows a lack of understanding that befits the level of you generalized, one-note Tito bashing posts.
     
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    Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum

    The Sox are in the middle of 13 straight games and used the bullpen a lot in Philly and Houston.  So this was the wrong game to use the bullpen lavishly.   Plus Aceves, the long reliever, had pitched the day before in Houston. 

    There is no current manager in MLB who would not have sent Lackey out for the third inning.  His last start, at Philly, was pretty good--2 runs in 8 innings. 
     
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    Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum

    In Response to Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum : Ain't about September Boosox.  Its about this series.  He goes to aceves in the 3rd, then the pen is looking real short for the next few days.  You always trot out this "fresh for the sept. push" retort when people talk of saving the pen.  It shows a lack of understanding that befits the level of you generalized, one-note Tito bashing posts.
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]

    Let me see if I can understand his and your way of thinking..... IF  "he goes to Aceves in the 3rd, then the pen is looking real short for the next few days"
     I'm beginning to understand. Correct me if I'm wrong. You don't use your bullpen in a current games, even if they're needed, so they will be available for the next few days, IN CASE THEY'RE NEEDED! ummm we need the pen today, but WHAT IF we need the for the next few days?  The present need isn't as important as a need that might or might not happen in the next few days. SOMETHING THAT HASN'T HAPPENED YET IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN AN IMMEDIATE NEED. Makes perfect sense to me, thanks for being patient with me.
     
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    Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum

    In Response to Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum : Let me see if I can understand his and your way of thinking..... IF  "he goes to Aceves in the 3rd, then the pen is looking real short for the next few days"  I'm beginning to understand. Correct me if I'm wrong. You don't use your bullpen in a current games, even if they're needed, so they will be available for the next few days, IN CASE THEY'RE NEEDED! ummm we need the pen today, but WHAT IF we need the for the next few days?  The present need isn't as important as a need that might or might not happen in the next few days. SOMETHING THAT HASN'T HAPPENED YET IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN AN IMMEDIATE NEED. Makes perfect sense to me, thanks for being patient with me.
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]

    Whether you choose to accept this or not, it is a truism:  ya need yer starter to go more than 2 innings.  There is no way around that.  This one, though you of course will attribute on "the Factor', was all on John Lackey.



     
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    Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum

    In Response to Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum : Whether you choose to accept this or not, it is a truism:  ya need yer starter to go more than 2 innings.  There is no way around that.  
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]

    I told you it makes sense to me, don't you believe me??? Cool
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum

    In Response to Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum : Let me see if I can understand his and your way of thinking..... IF  "he goes to Aceves in the 3rd, then the pen is looking real short for the next few days"  I'm beginning to understand. Correct me if I'm wrong. You don't use your bullpen in a current games, even if they're needed, so they will be available for the next few days, IN CASE THEY'RE NEEDED! ummm we need the pen today, but WHAT IF we need the for the next few days?  The present need isn't as important as a need that might or might not happen in the next few days. SOMETHING THAT HASN'T HAPPENED YET IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN AN IMMEDIATE NEED. Makes perfect sense to me, thanks for being patient with me.
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]

    My take on the game in the early innings was that it was the right time for Lackey to go under because the Sox were never going to score any runs.   Imagine my surprise when Drew of all people singled and came home with Scutaro on Ellsbury's triple, which led to Jake scoring on a WP.  Suddenly it's 7-3 and the Sox have a shot--despite the fact that AGon, close to the best hitter in MLB, was striking out and grounding into at least one double play.  Plus Youk got taken out by that shot in the back, etc.  

    Ellsbury had 4 hits and scored exactly one run because I think the Sox were tired.  Thus in the 9th he again led off the inning with a single, which he did in the 1st inning, which was followed by K's by Pedroia, AGon, and Navarro.   

    I think Francona had the right read.  Who knew Ellsbury wouldn't get the word that everyone was too tired? 
     
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    Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum

    In Response to Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum:
    [QUOTE]Bosax41,   You sound more like a 16 year old or someone who knows little or nothing about baseball. Let me explain this in terms that even you can understand! If you overuse the pitching are without giving it enough time to recover you are more susceptible to injuries. Take for example Mark Clear who was over used while on a great run and after his arm blew out was never the same. Yes the Sox may win more games for now but in the end will end up with either triple A pitchers or retreads in the bullpen. I know you have been told before that you do not know who is available for the manager to bring in on a day to day basis.   Take for example, maybe Paps are is a little tight and using him could cause damage that could put him out for the rest of the year or worse yet forever. Francona is privy to all of these little details and manages accordingly. What you think about it doesn’t mean a hill of beans to the Red Sox and as a 46 year fan I am glad of that. If you are really that disappointed then why don’t you become a Yankee fan where management is so perfect you will no longer have to whine like a two year old. This would also benefit the many loyal Red Sox fans that may not agree with management but will still support them because we love our Soxs.
    Posted by taz1956[/QUOTE]

    The front office is not a problem with me, they've supplied Francona with high caliber players for 7 plus years now. They hired Francona because Schilling demanded it, or he wouldn't sign. Francona inherited a championship team and they dragged him along as they won in 2004. In 2007, any of his minions could have won. In fact, most of them would have done better. No, I'm happy with the upper management of the team. I'm completely unhappy with the field manager.
    By the way, at 5 years old, I listened to the 1946 World Series, on radio with my dad. So I've got close to 20 years on you as a Red Sox fan. That and $1.50 will get you and me cup of coffee at Dunkin Donuts.
     
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    Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum

    In Response to Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum:
    [QUOTE]The Sox are in the middle of 13 straight games and used the bullpen a lot in Philly and Houston.  So this was the wrong game to use the bullpen lavishly.   Plus Aceves, the long reliever, had pitched the day before in Houston.  There is no current manager in MLB who would not have sent Lackey out for the third inning.  His last start, at Philly, was pretty good--2 runs in 8 innings. 
    Posted by maxbialystock[/QUOTE]

     If it's a throw away game, why use any relievers?
     
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    Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum

    In Response to Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum :  If it's a throw away game, why use any relievers?
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]

    That's actually a fair question, but I think the answer is simply that you also have to protect your pitchers when they are pitching poorly.  You can't just leave guys out there getting pummelled.  Not only will they be peeved about getting shelled and having their stats inflated, but there's a bigger risk of them and the fielders getting injured when a steady stream of meatballs is being served up. 
     
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    Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum

    Bosox41,

     

    Nowhere did I mention upper management. It is Francona’s decision who to use based on who is available, and he does it well. As far as inheriting a championship team, what year did they last win before 2004? Not 2003, not 1986, not 1978, not 1975, not 1967, but all the way back to 1918. Not because they did not have the talent but, either they were outplayed or out managed. There was also some luck involved but that can be said about almost any championship from any year in any sport. What was so great about the team in 2007 that the championship was a given. The sox were lucky to be playing Colorado, whose lineup sacred no one. Look if you have really been around 20 years longer than me and are a Red Sox fan then right now you should be happy not moping around like a child. It would be better for your health because I believe unless Tito does something stupid he will be the manager of this team as long as he wants. And when he leaves I hope we do not go through another 98 years of futility! Oh and by the way I am not going to get caught up in your act; I know that you basically argue to get under peoples skin but for me I feel real sorry for you because to live with that much negativity has to really bite the big one!!!!

     
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    Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum

    You said I might not agree with MANAGEMENT. If you were referring to Francona, why didn't you use the word MANAGER? You said management, to me that includes the entire MANAGEMENT team, includung the MANAGER.
     
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    Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum

    Lackey's last start at Philly was pretty darn good, and he said himself after yesterday's game his arm didn't hurt, his velocity was good, etc.  

    Only in hindsight is it obvious Francona would have been better off jerking Lackey out after the top of the 2d, when Lackey had given up 1 in the first and 2 in the second innning.  Most managers leave the starter in for 7 runs, especially when it looks like their own offense looks flat--which the Sox offense definitely looked like early on yesterday. 

     
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    Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum

    Posts: 1117
    First: 6/3/2008
    Last: 7/5/2011
    You said I migfht not agree with MANAGEMENT. If you were referring to Francona, why didn't you use the word MANAGER? You said management, to me that includes the entire MANAGEMENT team, includung the MANAGER.
    Don't forget "THE FRANCONA FACTOR" The opposition counts on it !!!
    "You said I migfht not agree with MANAGEMENT. If you were referring to Francona, why didn't you use the word MANAGER? You said management, to me that includes the entire MANAGEMENT team, includung the MANAGER. "

    Well well, semantics. Do you always wiggle out of the discussion by finding ways to turn it into what it was not"? I will not debate you as you have a propensity towards dodging what is true and turning it into a negative. I do hope you take a Dale Carnegie class so that you can enjoy life a little more.
     
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    Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum

    I don't think the problem with Tito had to do with sending Lackey out to start the 3rd inning. The problem was when he pulled him in the 3rd inning. In other words, as I explained on the game thread, there's a gigantic, huge, monstrous difference between a game that is 5-0 and a game that is 7-0. By the time Lackey had given up the 5th run IN THE THIRD INNING, it was clear as day he had to be replaced if the team had any true shot at coming back and winning. The bullpen issue is always going to be about stretching starters who are not particularly pitching well over bringing the reliever carousel in early. I get that, I'm sure most fans understand that, and it always going to be an issue in any start. As a manager, you err on going with the starter longer than he should. And Tito did by allowing him to start the 3rd inning and then giving up 3 or 4 hits to make it 5-0. Now, facing a lefty hitter and knowing that one more extrabase hit could be a 7-0 insurmountable lead, now you have to be a manager here.

    Tito had 2 choices. If he thought the game was in the balance still, he yanks Lackey for Wheeler at 5-0. (For those who then say well how do you know the reliever will get out of the jam or situation, the answer is you don't, but you bet that it's a better shot then allowing the guy who is already being hammered to stay in). The other choice, which was brought up about saving the bullpen, was you leave him in, sacrificing Lackey to basically "take it for the team." Lackey throws another 50 pitches, the Sox fall behind maybe 13-0 or he finds a groove and it stays 7-0 or whatever. Bottom line, pulling Lackey AFTER the damage was done at 7-0, leaving him in for one more hitter proved fatal. The team, of course, made a comeback and lost 9-7 despite a great job by the bullpen.

    I also explained that you can't expect your bullpen to throw 6-2/3 shutout innings and yet it almost did (1 earned run). And they lost. So the pen was wasted, Aceves and Wheeler and Albers threw innings to eat up the game, but the game was in essence OVER at 7-0. It was too much to come back from. 5-0 is a score that you can reasonably make a comeback and even win the game.

    Tito has done the leave the guy in too long routine so often, we all expect it. I knew he would wait too long to bring in Wheeler, and he did. And the team lost. So there's your evidence. Lackey did not eat innings, but he didn't get pulled fast enough. And should have been left in at 7-0 to "save the pen." The game was over, no need to pull Lackey at that point except to make a statement to the fans that he was done. We knew the guy was done several hitters before he was pulled.
     
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    Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum

    In Response to Re: We are awash in "Coma can't manage threads" on the forum:
    [QUOTE]I don't think the problem with Tito had to do with sending Lackey out to start the 3rd inning. The problem was when he pulled him in the 3rd inning. In other words, as I explained on the game thread, there's a gigantic, huge, monstrous difference between a game that is 5-0 and a game that is 7-0. By the time Lackey had given up the 5th run IN THE THIRD INNING, it was clear as day he had to be replaced if the team had any true shot at coming back and winning. The bullpen issue is always going to be about stretching starters who are not particularly pitching well over bringing the reliever carousel in early. I get that, I'm sure most fans understand that, and it always going to be an issue in any start. As a manager, you err on going with the starter longer than he should. And Tito did by allowing him to start the 3rd inning and then giving up 3 or 4 hits to make it 5-0. Now, facing a lefty hitter and knowing that one more extrabase hit could be a 7-0 insurmountable lead, now you have to be a manager here. Tito had 2 choices. If he thought the game was in the balance still, he yanks Lackey for Wheeler at 5-0. (For those who then say well how do you know the reliever will get out of the jam or situation, the answer is you don't, but you bet that it's a better shot then allowing the guy who is already being hammered to stay in). The other choice, which was brought up about saving the bullpen, was you leave him in, sacrificing Lackey to basically "take it for the team." Lackey throws another 50 pitches, the Sox fall behind maybe 13-0 or he finds a groove and it stays 7-0 or whatever. Bottom line, pulling Lackey AFTER the damage was done at 7-0, leaving him in for one more hitter proved fatal. The team, of course, made a comeback and lost 9-7 despite a great job by the bullpen. I also explained that you can't expect your bullpen to throw 6-2/3 shutout innings and yet it almost did (1 earned run). And they lost. So the pen was wasted, Aceves and Wheeler and Albers threw innings to eat up the game, but the game was in essence OVER at 7-0. It was too much to come back from. 5-0 is a score that you can reasonably make a comeback and even win the game. Tito has done the leave the guy in too long routine so often, we all expect it. I knew he would wait too long to bring in Wheeler, and he did. And the team lost. So there's your evidence. Lackey did not eat innings, but he didn't get pulled fast enough. And should have been left in at 7-0 to "save the pen." The game was over, no need to pull Lackey at that point except to make a statement to the fans that he was done. We knew the guy was done several hitters before he was pulled.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]


    hi danny,
        re: " Bottom line, pulling Lackey AFTER the damage was done at 7-0, leaving him in for one more hitter proved fatal. The team, of course, made a comeback and lost 9-7 despite a great job by the bullpen.

    I also explained that you can't expect your bullpen to throw 6-2/3 shutout innings and yet it almost did (1 earned run). And they lost. So the pen was wasted, Aceves and Wheeler and Albers threw innings to eat up the game, but the game was in essence OVER at 7-0. It was too much to come back from. 5-0 is a score that you can reasonably make a comeback and even win the game.

    Tito has done the leave the guy in too long routine so often, we all expect it. I knew he would wait too long to bring in Wheeler, and he did. And the team lost. So there's your evidence. Lackey did not eat innings, but he didn't get pulled fast enough. And should have been left in at 7-0 to "save the pen." The game was over, no need to pull Lackey at that point except to make a statement to the fans that he was done. We knew the guy was done several hitters before he was pulled."

    this was exactly the point i made earlier, but i saw no replies to.
    pull him while the game is ini reach or make him pitch 8 or so if yo want ot need to save the bullpen. again tito, good at keeping players happy. needs a game manager alongside or upper mgt calling down to tell him what to do on game decisions and player choices. henry and theo not smart enough to realize apparently.
     

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