what do you mean COOKED?
Talent-wise ( I would disagree in that case)
or
he just doesn't want to return to the Sox?
We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......
-
Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......
posted at 8/6/2012 4:52 PM EDT
- Iceman4
- Posts: 1661
- First: 9/11/2008
- Last: 6/19/2013
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Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......
posted at 8/6/2012 4:53 PM EDT
- moonslav59
- Posts: 35065
- First: 9/27/2005
- Last: 6/18/2013
Ortiz has the highest OPS in the league, so his production can't be replaced.
The only issue with David IMO is his age. Obviously he can't keep doing this for too much longer.Another issue is his production in the clutch.He has only 2 walk-off Hrs since the start of 2008 and none since the start of 2010.He has only one game ending hit since the start of 2010.Late & Close:2012: .6972011: .8952010: .6432009: .709I know he hasn't had much line-up protection since Manny left, but many hitters in MLb have had lesser hitters behind them and done better than this, -
Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......
posted at 8/6/2012 4:54 PM EDT
- carnie
- Posts: 10933
- First: 5/26/2008
- Last: 6/18/2013
In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......:In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI"....... : 2 year deal ????? You don't get it...... The guy aint coming back, he is done, COOKED !!!!!!Don't even bother Bill. You have no defense on this one. Not only are you capping on maybe the greatest post season hero in Red Sox history, but you want to write off a player who is still very productive. It's beyond dumb. Are you really a Red Sox fan at all?
Posted by Bill-806 -
Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......
posted at 8/6/2012 4:58 PM EDT
- Bill-806
- Posts: 14836
- First: 8/6/2008
- Last: 6/19/2013
In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......:what do you mean COOKED? Talent-wise ( I would disagree in that case) or he just doesn't want to return to the Sox?"LET ME BE CLEAR", one more time, "SPLAIN"...... hE CAN'T WALK, MEANING HE CAN'T RUN, CAN'T PLAY, DONE ,OVER, AND JUST ABOUT OUT OF BASEBALL !!!!!!!
Posted by Iceman4 -
Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......
posted at 8/6/2012 5:01 PM EDT
- pri360
- Posts: 569
- First: 5/20/2009
- Last: 10/12/2012
In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......:In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI"....... : Your statement about RBI is only true if you count this year, which is only 2/3 over, and his injury-shortened 2008. And then, Ortiz came up one shy (99) in 2009, and 4 shy (96) in 2011, when the guy in front of him drove in 117 and ran at the speed of smell. Call me crazy, but OPS seems like a better formula.look at his run scored over the last 5 years as well, which is a better indication of how well he does with that high on base percentage. Also kind of pedestrian. As for the only 2/3 over part. If a guy can't play, those are his numbers. With Youklis; fans were in love with his OPS, but if a guy is only playing 120 games a year than obviously a lesser player is filling for the other 25% of the time and the true value to the team is diluted. If Papi comes back on the 15th of august, do you think he will drive in 42 runs in 46 games? Once again; this is not about whether he is a special player or not - he is -I am simply positing that to this team - he is too expensive.
Posted by slomag -
Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......
posted at 8/6/2012 5:02 PM EDT
- Iceman4
- Posts: 1661
- First: 9/11/2008
- Last: 6/19/2013
In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......:In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI"....... : "LET ME BE CLEAR", one more time, "SPLAIN"...... hE CAN'T WALK, MEANING HE CAN'T RUN, CAN'T PLAY, DONE ,OVER, AND JUST ABOUT OUT OF BASEBALL !!!!!!!
Posted by Bill-806
I disagree. (Really that's all I can say...you are wrong and we will see)
Moon, unfortunately I semi-disagree with you also...I don't think the drop will be huge even with the age....he has shown this year that he is still heads and shoulders above alot of our other players.
Now , if he is frustrated and doesn't want to be on the Sox...that's a different matter -
Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......
posted at 8/6/2012 5:03 PM EDT
- pri360
- Posts: 569
- First: 5/20/2009
- Last: 10/12/2012
In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......:Ortiz has the highest OPS in the league, so his production can't be replaced. The only issue with David IMO is his age. Obviously he can't keep doing this for too much longer. Another issue is his production in the clutch. He has only 2 walk-off Hrs since the start of 2008 and none since the start of 2010. He has only one game ending hit since the start of 2010. Late & Close: 2012: .697 2011: .895 2010: .643 2009: .709 I know he hasn't had much line-up protection since Manny left, but many hitters in MLb have had lesser hitters behind them and done better than this,wow - do you think - considering this team's needs - that they should pay him $ 14m or more next year?
Posted by moonslav59 -
Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......
posted at 8/6/2012 5:10 PM EDT
- Drewski5
- Posts: 6433
- First: 1/20/2009
- Last: 6/18/2013
In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......:In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI"....... : wow - do you think - considering this team's needs - that they should pay him $ 14m or more next year?
Posted by pri360
Yes. Did you see the post about how Ortiz has the highest OPS in the AL. You dont think the best hitter in the AL is worth 14 mil / year?
He's worht 14million EASY. He's not just our DH. He's our #3 hitter. -
Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......
posted at 8/6/2012 5:11 PM EDT
- Hfxsoxnut
- Posts: 8691
- First: 5/30/2008
- Last: 6/19/2013
In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......:In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI"....... : look at his run scored over the last 5 years as well, which is a better indication of how well he does with that high on base percentage. Also kind of pedestrian. As for the only 2/3 over part. If a guy can't play, those are his numbers. With Youklis; fans were in love with his OPS, but if a guy is only playing 120 games a year than obviously a lesser player is filling for the other 25% of the time and the true value to the team is diluted. If Papi comes back on the 15th of august, do you think he will drive in 42 runs in 46 games? Once again; this is not about whether he is a special player or not - he is -I am simply positing that to this team - he is too expensive.
Posted by pri360
Since Ortiz became a fulltime player in 2004 he has played at least 145 games 7 times out of 9 seasons. Questioning his durability is silly. If that's what this is about I assume you think Ellsbury should be long gone. -
Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......
posted at 8/6/2012 5:11 PM EDT
- slomag
- Posts: 3656
- First: 8/31/2009
- Last: 6/17/2013
In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......:In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI"....... : look at his run scored over the last 5 years as well, which is a better indication of how well he does with that high on base percentage. Also kind of pedestrian. As for the only 2/3 over part. If a guy can't play, those are his numbers. With Youklis; fans were in love with his OPS, but if a guy is only playing 120 games a year than obviously a lesser player is filling for the other 25% of the time and the true value to the team is diluted. If Papi comes back on the 15th of august, do you think he will drive in 42 runs in 46 games? Once again; this is not about whether he is a special player or not - he is -I am simply positing that to this team - he is too expensive.
Posted by pri360Well, this is the first time he's been on the DL since 2008. For this team, he's an iron man. If he comes back on August 15th, and the lineup is featuring Ellsbury, Crawford, Pedroia, Gonzalez, Salty, Ross, Middlebrooks & Aviles ... yeah, I think he's got a shot at 100 RBI, and 100 runs scored, even with the time he missed. -
Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......
posted at 8/6/2012 5:17 PM EDT
- bosoxmal
- Posts: 1394
- First: 11/18/2004
- Last: 6/19/2013
Nothing like spreading stupid rumors when you've got nothing better to do. -
Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......
posted at 8/6/2012 5:23 PM EDT
- pri360
- Posts: 569
- First: 5/20/2009
- Last: 10/12/2012
In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......:In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI"....... : Well, this is the first time he's been on the DL since 2008. For this team, he's an iron man. If he comes back on August 15th, and the lineup is featuring Ellsbury, Crawford, Pedroia, Gonzalez, Salty, Ross, Middlebrooks & Aviles ... yeah, I think he's got a shot at 100 RBI, and 100 runs scored, even with the time he missed.How strong the lineup is not that relevant. especially when you consider that most of the guys batting ahead of him are not playing up to their potential. We've gone around the bend on this discussion more than a few times - I'm simply saying -- he's not worth the money - you never said whether you think the Sox should sign him next year - even with his 1.000 OPS - for $ 14M plus?
Posted by slomag -
Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......
posted at 8/6/2012 5:31 PM EDT
- pri360
- Posts: 569
- First: 5/20/2009
- Last: 10/12/2012
In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......:In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI"....... : Yes. Did you see the post about how Ortiz has the highest OPS in the AL. You dont think the best hitter in the AL is worth 14 mil / year? He's worht 14million EASY. He's not just our DH. He's our #3 hitter.Thats really high praise and I remember Theo calling JD Drew the best hitting rightfielder in AL because of his OPS; and then Youklis; and last year it was Gonzalez. I would be very careful about throwing that "best hitter in the AL" moniker around. Miguel Cabrera, Pujols, Trout (small sample size), Cano - they're all regarded as more desirable than Ortiz. As a yankee fan; I hope ortiz does sign up with The Sox next year for $ 15m or more - I think it will keep the team from getting better sooner.
Posted by Drewski5 -
Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......
posted at 8/6/2012 5:37 PM EDT
- pri360
- Posts: 569
- First: 5/20/2009
- Last: 10/12/2012
In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......:In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI"....... : Since Ortiz became a fulltime player in 2004 he has played at least 145 games 7 times out of 9 seasons. Questioning his durability is silly. If that's what this is about I assume you think Ellsbury should be long gone.I didn't question his durability - if at the end of the year - he drives in 90 to 95 runs (maybe becuase he was hurt), the team misses the playoff -- and he wants $ 14M plus next year at age 38 - do you pay him? Why doesn't anyone besides Drewski want to answer that question?
Posted by Hfxsoxnut -
Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......
posted at 8/6/2012 5:52 PM EDT
- Hfxsoxnut
- Posts: 8691
- First: 5/30/2008
- Last: 6/19/2013
In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......:In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI"....... : I didn't question his durability - if at the end of the year - he drives in 90 to 95 runs (maybe becuase he was hurt), the team misses the playoff -- and he wants $ 14M plus next year at age 38 - do you pay him? Why doesn't anyone besides Drewski want to answer that question?
Posted by pri360
Yes, I would. -
Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......
posted at 8/6/2012 5:59 PM EDT
- carnie
- Posts: 10933
- First: 5/26/2008
- Last: 6/18/2013
In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......:In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI"....... : Yes, I would.So would I, but I think I said that earlier.
Posted by Hfxsoxnut -
Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......
posted at 8/6/2012 6:00 PM EDT
- 6k42lt913c
- Posts: 1156
- First: 3/30/2012
- Last: 8/31/2012
Does this forum want to leave this for discussion in the dark, dreary days in November? -
Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......
posted at 8/6/2012 6:02 PM EDT
- Hfxsoxnut
- Posts: 8691
- First: 5/30/2008
- Last: 6/19/2013
In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......:Does this forum want to leave this for discussion in the dark, dreary days in November?
Posted by 6k42lt913c
Obviously not. We'll discuss it again in November. Thanks for your input though.
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Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......
posted at 8/6/2012 6:03 PM EDT
- tcal2-
- Posts: 10970
- First: 12/17/2010
- Last: 6/18/2013
Gotta love the the guaranteed contracts. The only positive here is this union doesn't raise my taxes every year. -
Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......
posted at 8/6/2012 6:03 PM EDT
- Harpua710
- Posts: 634
- First: 7/12/2012
- Last: 12/12/2012
In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......:Does this forum want to leave this for discussion in the dark, dreary days in November?
Posted by 6k42lt913c
Are you asking that because you really want answer or do you think that this thread topic is only appropriate for November based on your own criteria? -
Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......
posted at 8/6/2012 6:05 PM EDT
- pri360
- Posts: 569
- First: 5/20/2009
- Last: 10/12/2012
In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......:In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI"....... : Yes, I would.
Posted by HfxsoxnutWell the sox are probably going to get the chance to; because I don't think any other team will offer anything more than 50% of that number. Should be interesting to see it play out. Thanks guys! -
Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......
posted at 8/6/2012 7:15 PM EDT
- slomag
- Posts: 3656
- First: 8/31/2009
- Last: 6/17/2013
In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......:In Response to Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI"....... : How strong the lineup is not that relevant. especially when you consider that most of the guys batting ahead of him are not playing up to their potential. We've gone around the bend on this discussion more than a few times - I'm simply saying -- he's not worth the money - you never said whether you think the Sox should sign him next year - even with his 1.000 OPS - for $ 14M plus?
Posted by pri360In a heartbeat - I'd sign him to a 3-year, $30M deal with a cheap buyout on the third year. -
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Re: We have seen the last of one "BIG PAPI".......
posted at 8/6/2012 7:38 PM EDT
- moonslav59
- Posts: 35065
- First: 9/27/2005
- Last: 6/18/2013
Moon, unfortunately I semi-disagree with you also...I don't think the drop will be huge even with the age....he has shown this year that he is still heads and shoulders above alot of our other players.When did I say he would have a "huge decline"?All I mentioned was his drop off in key hits over the last few years, partially due to being pitched around when it counts...He has only 2 walk-off Hrs since the start of 2008 and none since the start of 2010.He has only one game ending hit since the start of 2010.Late & Close:2012: .6972011: .8952010: .6432009: .709I know he hasn't had much line-up protection since Manny left, but many hitters in MLB have had lesser hitters behind them and done better than this.I have mentioned several times offering Papi a deal like this (adjusted to player option year)...2013: $15M (+$500K for 450+ PAs and $500K for 550+ PAs)2014: $14M (+$500K for 450+PAs, $500K for 500+, $500K for 550+, and $500K for 600+)2015: $6M player option with $1M club buyout.Deal counts as $30M/3 towards the luxury tax or $10M/yr.I want Papi back, but do not think it is the end of the world if we replace him with Lava and others from within (and possibly Ross on a 1 year arb deal) and use the $15M towards getting a guy like Hamilton in RF or Greinke at starting pitcher. The drop off at DH could be made up for at other positions (including a returning to form Ellsbury in CF during his contract year).