Webster or Doubront?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    Doubront has good stuff , but he has not been able to consistently have command of it.  With Webster and De La Rosa coming on , Felix is definitely on the bubble. I would have Dempster on a short leash also.   We should not wait until we are 15 games out before making a move.



    Doubront to this point is very similar to Lester at the same point of development.  It's too early to make judgments on what Doubront can be.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    Allen Webster has over 200 innings in AA and has proved himself there.  He should start they season in Pawtucket, and if he continues his dominance be the first guy up to fill in.  It makes sense, it's non rushing, and it starts his clock a year longer.  I'm all for aggressive prospect promotions, (Bogaerts, 19 in Portland) but they should also not be rushed too fast and challenged at every level before they are advanced.

    Baring any injuries, I'd put money down on him starting in AAA.




    This ^^^^

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from LeftyGrove. Show LeftyGrove's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    Webster will start in AA, maybe AAA.

    Doubie had another 5 K's last night. Hes got great swing and miss stuff. I highly doubt just because some kid has a few good innings in ST that will be enough to take our #4 pitchers slot in the rotation.

    Everyone needs to ease up on these prospects. Just because they have a good spring doesnt mean they automatically should be in the starting rotation or line up. Its very encouraging and they have impressed, but lets not get ahead of ourselves. their time will come soon enough.



    Well said, prospects cannot be rushed... David Clyde anyone.?

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from makonikyman. Show makonikyman's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    A) Tazawa has the best stuff in the organization. bar none.

    One of the best for sure.

     

    B) Doobie pitched well enough last season that he deserves a long look in 2013.

    It was not as great as you and others think. His WHIP was bad.

     

    C) Webster (along with RDLR) is on an innings limit, so starting him in the MLB will only complicate things down the road when we shut him down and look for another pitcher to take his palce.

    The problem is, he will be getting innings in AAA that will limit how many MLB innings he can give us. It's too early to decide now, but if he's better than Doubront, why use up his innings in AAA?

     

    D) Webster (along with RDLR) will get a cup of tea at some point this season. But they will not start the season in the MLB unless someone gets injured.

    I agree, but that doesn't make it the right call.

     

    E) even if someone does get injured there are probably at least 3-4 other pitchers who would get the starting nod ahead of them at this point. Due to the aforementioned innings limit.

     #6/7/8/9: Morales/Aceves/Wright/Mortenson/(Tazawa). not necessarily in that order. THEN RDLR & Webster probably.

    I doubt Aceves starts, and I don't see themn stretching out Mortensen, so I do not think they will use him for anything more than a 3-4 innings start in a pinch. I do think Morales and Wright may be used before Webster or DLR- right or wrong.



    His whip was bad.....so wasn't Jon Lester's, John Tudors,Bobby O'jedas's, Bruce Husrt's, and many,many other young left handed pitchers at similar stages and age in thier careers. You DO NOT give up on cheap left handers with plus stuff like he has too early. Are you kidding me. As a rookie.....he had One, One really tough 6 game stretch. Other than that, he was the teams most consistantent and best pitcher last year. Look it up...

     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimedfred. Show jimedfred's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    At age 24 Felix Doubront gave us 29 starts and 11 wins last year, pitching 40 + innings more than he EVER had in a season.  Anyone writing off his potential as a successful big league starter because he showed up a few pounds heavy to an EARLY beginning extra-long spring training might be jumping the gun a bit.

    Just like extrapolating 25 man roster spots from 8-12 innings pitched in ST, especially for guys with ZERO starts above AA  ( Webster ) or 10 career M.L. starts total and only 13 2/3 innings pitched in 2012 ( Rubby DLR ).

    Yes , both Webster AND DeLa Rosa look like rotation studs.........for 2014, assuming all goes as planned. But Rubby has to re-strengthen his arm, build endurance and stamina back up while Webster must demonstrate sustained control and repeatable delivery.

    I expect R DLR to begin in Portland / jump to AAA mid-summer and Webster to start in Pawtuck; POSSIBLY makng big club in late July IF all goes well.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    A good case could be made that Felix Doubront is the most under rated player in the organization.

    Lefty who averages 93 mph on his fastball. Had an xFIP of 3.81 and more K's then innings as a 24 year old in Fenway in the AL east. Was 10-4 before he tired and the team gave up around him. Sounds like a guy you might want to build a team around. Instead, most here throw him in trades as an after thought or peg him as the guy to replace.

     

    Odd that he has always been under rated even in the minors when he was getting it done there too.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxpride34. Show redsoxpride34's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    maybe the reason why he tired and struggled was more to do with him not being in great shape as opposed to having to pitch extra innings. he showed up for camp out of shape and has not pitched overly well over his few starts this spring. his whip last year was brutal, yes he did put up good strikeout numbers, but when your walking as many batters as he does, 5-6 inning starts become the norm it puts extra stress on the pen. hes 25 this year, if he holds onto his rotation spot, he needs to cut down the walks and be more effecient. first and foremost he needs to imrpove his conditioning in order to remain effective till the end of the season. he has good stuff, he just needs to work on his control. but until he does, he remains a slightly above average #5 pitcher. 

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    In response to redsoxpride34's comment:

    maybe the reason why he tired and struggled was more to do with him not being in great shape as opposed to having to pitch extra innings. he showed up for camp out of shape and has not pitched overly well over his few starts this spring. his whip last year was brutal, yes he did put up good strikeout numbers, but when your walking as many batters as he does, 5-6 inning starts become the norm it puts extra stress on the pen. hes 25 this year, if he holds onto his rotation spot, he needs to cut down the walks and be more effecient. first and foremost he needs to imrpove his conditioning in order to remain effective till the end of the season. he has good stuff, he just needs to work on his control. but until he does, he remains a slightly above average #5 pitcher. 



    he didn't look out of shape last season. and he pitched more than double the innings as the previous year so i think it's safe to say the workload was the cause for his ineffectiveness down the stretch.. much much much much moreso than him "being out of shape".

    yes, his walk rate was not good but there was a lot of things to like about him. It's obvious he needs to cut down on the walks if he wants to suceed.. Less walks means a lower WHIP, longer outings and a general increase in production.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    Start with Doubront then wait for the inevitable injuries to occur.  If I were to bet whoever the Red Sox 6th starter is will be starting games by May.  

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    I doubt Aceves starts, and I don't see themn stretching out Mortensen, so I do not think they will use him for anything more than a 3-4 innings start in a pinch. I do think Morales and Wright may be used before Webster or DLR- right or wrong.

     



    His whip was bad.....so wasn't Jon Lester's, John Tudors,Bobby O'jedas's, Bruce Husrt's, and many,many other young left handed pitchers at similar stages and age in thier careers. You DO NOT give up on cheap left handers with plus stuff like he has too early. Are you kidding me. As a rookie.....he had One, One really tough 6 game stretch. Other than that, he was the teams most consistantent and best pitcher last year. Look it up...

    Where did I say give up on Doubie? 

    I merely said his 2013 numbers were not that good.

    They weren't. 

    Being the "most consistent" out of one of the worst rotations we've ever had, does not mean he did well.

    He did not.

    I have mentioned trading Doubie. I guess you may call that "giving up", but I prefer to see it as making room for pitchers who all togteher, offer an equally promising future, and getting something of better value back when he is packaged with others.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    Anyone writing off his potential as a successful big league starter because he showed up a few pounds heavy to an EARLY beginning extra-long spring training might be jumping the gun a bit.

    Saying we like the outlook of other young starters better than Doubie is not "writing off his potential" over coming to shape out of shape, however, doesn't it concern you that at his age, he has shown this trait twice in the last 3 years?

    If a kid fighting to make the teamm or the starting rotation comes to camp in this kind of shape two times in 3 years, I'm open to looking at other options. 

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    A good case could be made that Felix Doubront is the most under rated player in the organization.

    After reading the last few threads, a case could be made that he could be the most over rated player.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    Regardless of everyones opinion here I think we can all agree on this.  The 5th spot in the rotation is Doubronts to lose. 

    Webster may be/come knocking, but it would be a little unfair at this point to assume that Doubront will either regress or stall, and so much can happen that Webster (if ready) may very well replace anyone in the rotation. 

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from makonikyman. Show makonikyman's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    I doubt Aceves starts, and I don't see themn stretching out Mortensen, so I do not think they will use him for anything more than a 3-4 innings start in a pinch. I do think Morales and Wright may be used before Webster or DLR- right or wrong.

     



    His whip was bad.....so wasn't Jon Lester's, John Tudors,Bobby O'jedas's, Bruce Husrt's, and many,many other young left handed pitchers at similar stages and age in thier careers. You DO NOT give up on cheap left handers with plus stuff like he has too early. Are you kidding me. As a rookie.....he had One, One really tough 6 game stretch. Other than that, he was the teams most consistantent and best pitcher last year. Look it up...

    Where did I say give up on Doubie? 

    I merely said his 2013 numbers were not that good.

    They weren't. 

    Being the "most consistent" out of one of the worst rotations we've ever had, does not mean he did well.

    He did not.

    I have mentioned trading Doubie. I guess you may call that "giving up", but I prefer to see it as making room for pitchers who all togteher, offer an equally promising future, and getting something of better value back when he is packaged with others.



    We can spin numbers to fit any point we want to make. Let's start with your guy Salty. I ve heard you say many times that his cera. Got much better after the first 6 or 8 weeks of the season, or....that after buch's first 5 or 6 starts his era was really good. Same thing with Lester....so, You want to trade Doubie...who has pretty good upside and is really cheap over trading a Lester, who is expensive and prob will not be here in 2 yrs? Don't make sense....Felix Doubront was 10-5, with a 4.37 era on aug 3rd when he hit the rookie wall....he then had 5 pretty ugly starts, and the reason the red sox didn't shut him down was because they knew what they were doing. They wanted him to pitch through the fatigue. You have got to do that at some point to a young pitcher. The good thing for both him, and the red sox is that he got his 2nd wind and finished with 4 really good starts. That's what I'm looking at, and I'm sure the red sox are also. In baseball today, you DO NOT trade high upside pitching, especially left handed pitching. Take his whip and exclude those 5 starts just like you do for Salty, or Buch to make a case for them and see where we are at. 

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from tg19pats. Show tg19pats's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    Iwe everyone so high on tazawa, is he strictly relief or possible starter, sox killed me last year and did not pay as much attention as usual, plus three young kids makes watching games a little tricky, can someone please state where Tarawa should fit best. Thanks

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from seannybboi. Show seannybboi's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    I doubt Webster wins the starting role over Douby even after strong ST.  If Webster keeps up with his strong outing in the minor, I can see Douby being traded if offers were made FO can't resist.  

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    In response to tg19pats' comment:

    Iwe everyone so high on tazawa, is he strictly relief or possible starter, sox killed me last year and did not pay as much attention as usual, plus three young kids makes watching games a little tricky, can someone please state where Tarawa should fit best. Thanks




    I think hes being used the same way as he was last year. A late inning reliever. If he has as much success as he did last year he could be considered for either a closers job or convert back to a starter.

    basically its still up in the air with tazawa. What he does this year and depending on the teams needs will dictate what his role is going forward.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from BosoxJoe5. Show BosoxJoe5's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    K's are over-rated.



    Balls hit in play are sure outs even they hit right at someone. His K's allow for his WHIP to be less of a factor.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    In response to makonikyman's comment:

    We can spin numbers to fit any point we want to make. Let's start with your guy Salty. I ve heard you say many times that his cera. Got much better after the first 6 or 8 weeks of the season, or....that after buch's first 5 or 6 starts his era was really good. Same thing with Lester....so, You want to trade Doubie...who has pretty good upside and is really cheap over trading a Lester, who is expensive and prob will not be here in 2 yrs? Don't make sense....Felix Doubront was 10-5, with a 4.37 era on aug 3rd when he hit the rookie wall....he then had 5 pretty ugly starts, and the reason the red sox didn't shut him down was because they knew what they were doing. They wanted him to pitch through the fatigue. You have got to do that at some point to a young pitcher. The good thing for both him, and the red sox is that he got his 2nd wind and finished with 4 really good starts. That's what I'm looking at, and I'm sure the red sox are also. In baseball today, you DO NOT trade high upside pitching, especially left handed pitching. Take his whip and exclude those 5 starts just like you do for Salty, or Buch to make a case for them and see where we are at. 



    Excellent post...a lot of good points about Doubront's season there.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    Doubront has good stuff , but he has not been able to consistently have command of it.  With Webster and De La Rosa coming on , Felix is definitely on the bubble. I would have Dempster on a short leash also.   We should not wait until we are 15 games out before making a move.

    Doubront to this point is very similar to Lester at the same point of development.  It's too early to make judgments on what Doubront can be.



    In his age 23 season, Jon Lester won the clinching game of the 2007 World Series.

    In his age 24 season, Lester went 16-6 with a 3.21 ERA in 33 starts covering 210.1 innings.

    In his age 24 season, Felix Doubront (who turned 25 during the World Series) went 11-10 with a 4.86 ERA in 29 starts covering 161 innings.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from makonikyman. Show makonikyman's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to makonikyman's comment:

     

    We can spin numbers to fit any point we want to make. Let's start with your guy Salty. I ve heard you say many times that his cera. Got much better after the first 6 or 8 weeks of the season, or....that after buch's first 5 or 6 starts his era was really good. Same thing with Lester....so, You want to trade Doubie...who has pretty good upside and is really cheap over trading a Lester, who is expensive and prob will not be here in 2 yrs? Don't make sense....Felix Doubront was 10-5, with a 4.37 era on aug 3rd when he hit the rookie wall....he then had 5 pretty ugly starts, and the reason the red sox didn't shut him down was because they knew what they were doing. They wanted him to pitch through the fatigue. You have got to do that at some point to a young pitcher. The good thing for both him, and the red sox is that he got his 2nd wind and finished with 4 really good starts. That's what I'm looking at, and I'm sure the red sox are also. In baseball today, you DO NOT trade high upside pitching, especially left handed pitching. Take his whip and exclude those 5 starts just like you do for Salty, or Buch to make a case for them and see where we are at. 

     



    Excellent post...a lot of good points about Doubront's season there.

     



    Thx soxnut...I just get a little frustrated sometimes when some of these stat geeks spin numbers to make themselves look smart, or to promote one player over another. The other point moon makes about him coming in out of shape ....Doudront is 165 lbs soaking wet, Ihave a friend who's boy is in the padres system, and they told him to drink 2 gall of milk and eat 6 peanut butter and jelly sand. Every day to gain weight ( no kidding) . I'm sure that the red sox  would love to see Doubront put on 10/15 lbs and the only way to do that is to eat, and eat a lot. Which IMO could explain him "looking" out of shape to the writer that wrote the story. 

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from makonikyman. Show makonikyman's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    In response to hill55's comment:

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

    Doubront has good stuff , but he has not been able to consistently have command of it.  With Webster and De La Rosa coming on , Felix is definitely on the bubble. I would have Dempster on a short leash also.   We should not wait until we are 15 games out before making a move.

    Doubront to this point is very similar to Lester at the same point of development.  It's too early to make judgments on what Doubront can be.



    In his age 23 season, Jon Lester won the clinching game of the 2007 World Series.

     

    In his age 24 season, Lester went 16-6 with a 3.21 ERA in 33 starts covering 210.1 innings.

    In his age 24 season, Felix Doubront (who turned 25 during the World Series) went 11-10 with a 4.86 ERA in 29 starts covering 161 innings.



    Great point....his 23 season he also had a 4.57 era  and a 1.46 whip. His 22 season he had a 4.76 era and a 1.64 whip....imagine if we had given up on him because of those numbers? We would have never seen that nice 4 yr run he had, someone else would have...again, if you're going to throw stats out there , throw them all out...

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxnewmex. Show soxnewmex's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    Yes, give me Webster in the starting ro, Bradley in left or right, Lava catching.  Fresh blood all around with tremendous upside, tired of these so-so guys like Doubrount Gomes Salty, we're going nowhere with their ilk.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    I think people here are overestimating how often a rookie comes up and performs great.  Guys like Harper, Cabrera, and Pedrioa, who come up and perform at an elite level right away is just so so rare.  A guy like Bradely and Webster could very well be up down guys this year struggle a little bit and be more at an all start level in 2014/2015

    And there is NOTHING wrong with that, they both have the stuff to spend 10,12, 15 years in the bigs and make a few all start games.  

    Lava is unimpressive I'm sorry.  From what I've heard his glove is just not developing, his made improvements but he will always be a below average defender.  Sometimes guys look great in the minors and hit a ceiling and he has yet to hit at the MLB level.  Maybe he focused on his defense last year and that hurt him and this is the year he puts it all together, but he NEEDS to show us some more before he gets a 25 man spot. 

     
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