Webster or Doubront?

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    In response to bobbysu's comment:

    Doubront's Out Pitch in the Minors was the Curveball, didn't throw this hard. Saw him. Dont understand why the Sox Coaching Staff or Catchers dont call for the curve more often. People forget his first start against Price, pitched darn good in Tampa a few years back.
    Never give up on young Lefties, keep thinking of John Tudor.
    K's are not overated, there will be situations in a game where you need the strikeout, compared to a Pitcher who pitches to contact. Could be the difference in a win.



    I never said Ks weren't important, but many here over rate them. 

    Having a WHIP over 1.40 is not explained away by a bunch of K's.

    He was not very good in 2012. None of our starters were. The fact that he might have been the most consistent out of the whole rotten bunch, is not a free ride to the next year's starting rotation, particularly when it's the second year out of his first three that he came to camp out of shape.

    You know that Doubie must have heard the rumbings after coming to camp out of shape in 2011- a year he was out to win a spot in the bigs- and to me, it is very troubling that he didn't rededicate himself to put all the talk to rest. I don't get it. I don't like to reward laziness. It sets a bad example.

     
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    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    In response to makonikyman's comment:

    In response to hill55's comment:

     

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

    Doubront has good stuff , but he has not been able to consistently have command of it.  With Webster and De La Rosa coming on , Felix is definitely on the bubble. I would have Dempster on a short leash also.   We should not wait until we are 15 games out before making a move.

    Doubront to this point is very similar to Lester at the same point of development.  It's too early to make judgments on what Doubront can be.



    In his age 23 season, Jon Lester won the clinching game of the 2007 World Series.

     

    In his age 24 season, Lester went 16-6 with a 3.21 ERA in 33 starts covering 210.1 innings.

    In his age 24 season, Felix Doubront (who turned 25 during the World Series) went 11-10 with a 4.86 ERA in 29 starts covering 161 innings.

     



    Great point....his 23 season he also had a 4.57 era  and a 1.46 whip. His 22 season he had a 4.76 era and a 1.64 whip....imagine if we had given up on him because of those numbers? We would have never seen that nice 4 yr run he had, someone else would have...again, if you're going to throw stats out there , throw them all out...

     



    1) Who's giving up on Doubront? Maybe we just like other more. Besides, someone will get hurt and everyone will have a shot at starting on the big club if they are pitching well.

    2) I could list hundreds of starters with numbers like Doubront's up to this point in their careers, who never made it to a quality starter. Yes, he may turn out like Lester or better, but guys like Webster could be better.

    3) One could ask why you are giving up on Webster, Tazawa, Morales, DLR...

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    In response to mef429's comment:

    A) Tazawa has the best stuff in the organization. bar none.

    B) Doobie pitched well enough last season that he deserves a long look in 2013.

    C) Webster (along with RDLR) is on an innings limit, so starting him in the MLB will only complicate things down the road when we shut him down and look for another pitcher to take his palce.

    D) Webster (along with RDLR) will get a cup of tea at some point this season. But they will not start the season in the MLB unless someone gets injured.

    E) even if someone does get injured there are probably at least 3-4 other pitchers who would get the starting nod ahead of them at this point. Due to the aforementioned innings limit.

     #6/7/8/9: Morales/Aceves/Wright/Mortenson/(Tazawa). not necessarily in that order. THEN RDLR & Webster probably.



    I have not heard that Webster is on an innings limit like RDLR. I would not bring Webster up until its past the date where we have another year of control of his contract, assuming keeping him in the minors allows us that extra year. He will be a valuable asset when the team is able to make another run at it.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    Felix D needs to be one of the five starters...i have no idea what people are talking about in regards to demoting or punishing him for coming out of shape (like papi did rehab????)

    This is what spring training is for and he needs to get in shape...with francona gone so is club med florida

    but trading away/benching a young pitcher when we have a serious lack of starting hurlers? 

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    In response to georom4's comment:

    Felix D needs to be one of the five starters...i have no idea what people are talking about in regards to demoting or punishing him for coming out of shape (like papi did rehab????)

    This is what spring training is for and he needs to get in shape...with francona gone so is club med florida

    but trading away/benching a young pitcher when we have a serious lack of starting hurlers? 

     



    Great! 

    The guy who roasted Beckett for years about his big belly, now thinks it's OK for a young starter to use spring training as a place to get into shape.

    Geo, I was never for trading Doubront without upgrading the rotation as part of the overall plan, in fact my biggest suggestion involved trading Doubront and others for a better starting pitcher who is also under team control for many years and has better promise than Felix.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    A) Tazawa has the best stuff in the organization. bar none.

    B) Doobie pitched well enough last season that he deserves a long look in 2013.

    C) Webster (along with RDLR) is on an innings limit, so starting him in the MLB will only complicate things down the road when we shut him down and look for another pitcher to take his palce.

    D) Webster (along with RDLR) will get a cup of tea at some point this season. But they will not start the season in the MLB unless someone gets injured.

    E) even if someone does get injured there are probably at least 3-4 other pitchers who would get the starting nod ahead of them at this point. Due to the aforementioned innings limit.

     #6/7/8/9: Morales/Aceves/Wright/Mortenson/(Tazawa). not necessarily in that order. THEN RDLR & Webster probably.

     



    I have not heard that Webster is on an innings limit like RDLR. I would not bring Webster up until its past the date where we have another year of control of his contract, assuming keeping him in the minors allows us that extra year. He will be a valuable asset when the team is able to make another run at it.

     




    you might be right. i thought he pitched less innings last season than he actually did. he had 130 innings last season so it isn't unrealistic to think the sox push him to around 180ish in 2013. Doobie is in the rotation from this point on but that may change is he falters and Webster is lights out in the minors.. But still, i think there are other pitchers on the depth chart ahead of Webster at this point. So if we are in need of a starter i'm not sure that Webster would be called on. especially if we lost a year of control because of it.

     
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    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    Dude looked good in his last outing. Ya right, spring training, Doobie has earned his spot! Grow up kids Doobie wins 14 this year and continues to grow! He replaces Lester when he leaves as the staff top LH!

     
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    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    In response to Polly-'s comment:

    Lester has been great this spring. He said previously that last year was an off year for him. Where are all of the posters who predicted that he was all washed up? Were they just toying with us? Is that toying what keeps the forum going? Is it all just a game here?



    pike

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from makonikyman. Show makonikyman's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to bobbysu's comment:

     

    Doubront's Out Pitch in the Minors was the Curveball, didn't throw this hard. Saw him. Dont understand why the Sox Coaching Staff or Catchers dont call for the curve more often. People forget his first start against Price, pitched darn good in Tampa a few years back.
    Never give up on young Lefties, keep thinking of John Tudor.
    K's are not overated, there will be situations in a game where you need the strikeout, compared to a Pitcher who pitches to contact. Could be the difference in a win.

     



    I never said Ks weren't important, but many here over rate them. 

     

    Having a WHIP over 1.40 is not explained away by a bunch of K's.

    He was not very good in 2012. None of our starters were. The fact that he might have been the most consistent out of the whole rotten bunch, is not a free ride to the next year's starting rotation, particularly when it's the second year out of his first three that he came to camp out of shape.

    You know that Doubie must have heard the rumbings after coming to camp out of shape in 2011- a year he was out to win a spot in the bigs- and to me, it is very troubling that he didn't rededicate himself to put all the talk to rest. I don't get it. I don't like to reward laziness. It sets a bad example.



    Doubie is 165 lbs moon. You really crack me up with some of the comments you post on here. Like you know the inner workings of the organization. How do you know that the red sox didn't tell him to gain weight? It's my guess they d like to see him closer to 180/190 instead of 165 so he could last the rigors of a 162 game schedule. Did you ever consider that as a possibility? Why do you assume that he's lazy when you really don't know a thing at all about him, or what the people who pay his salary want him to do? Do you have any clue moon how hard it is to get to the big leagues Moon? The work that it takes to get there? Before you call someone lazy, you should know the facts....

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    In response to makonikyman's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to bobbysu's comment:

     

    Doubront's Out Pitch in the Minors was the Curveball, didn't throw this hard. Saw him. Dont understand why the Sox Coaching Staff or Catchers dont call for the curve more often. People forget his first start against Price, pitched darn good in Tampa a few years back.
    Never give up on young Lefties, keep thinking of John Tudor.
    K's are not overated, there will be situations in a game where you need the strikeout, compared to a Pitcher who pitches to contact. Could be the difference in a win.

     



    I never said Ks weren't important, but many here over rate them. 

     

    Having a WHIP over 1.40 is not explained away by a bunch of K's.

    He was not very good in 2012. None of our starters were. The fact that he might have been the most consistent out of the whole rotten bunch, is not a free ride to the next year's starting rotation, particularly when it's the second year out of his first three that he came to camp out of shape.

    You know that Doubie must have heard the rumbings after coming to camp out of shape in 2011- a year he was out to win a spot in the bigs- and to me, it is very troubling that he didn't rededicate himself to put all the talk to rest. I don't get it. I don't like to reward laziness. It sets a bad example.

     



    Doubie is 165 lbs moon. You really crack me up with some of the comments you post on here. Like you know the inner workings of the organization. How do you know that the red sox didn't tell him to gain weight? It's my guess they d like to see him closer to 180/190 instead of 165 so he could last the rigors of a 162 game schedule. Did you ever consider that as a possibility? Why do you assume that he's lazy when you really don't know a thing at all about him, or what the people who pay his salary want him to do? Do you have any clue moon how hard it is to get to the big leagues Moon? The work that it takes to get there? Before you call someone lazy, you should know the facts....

     

     



    1) My "lazy" comment was more directed at Geo, who always called Beckett fat, and now is OK with Doubie coming to camp out of shape in 2 of his first 3 seasons.

    2) You don't have to be "fat" to be out of shape.

    3) Keep pretending this kid doesn't have some issues, and maybe they will go away someday, if he matures.

    4) I do know how hard it is to make the majors. I know how hard it is to even make a college team. That's one big reason Doubie irks me, when he has his big chance in 2011, he comes to camp way out of shape. Did he learn from his mistake? Apparently not, but maybe you are right. He added beef for the long season. It wouldn't be the first time that was used as a team strategy, but then it doesn't make sense that some people were upset at his state of health.

    5) All I have been saying is that our starting staff was so bad last year, that I feel some people got all gah gah over Doubront's promising, but hardly impressive 2012 season.

    Our rotation stunk last year from top to bottom, and yet I am hearing so much praise over a guy who did this:

    4 Sox starters with over 100 IP:

    Doubront placed:

    3rd in ERA at 4.86.

    4th in WHIP at a miserable 1.447 (All starters combined for 1.417.)

    4th in OPS against at .775 (All starters were .790.)

    OK, so he tied Morales with the best starter K rate of 9.3, but he also led all starters with the highest BB rate of 4.0. At best he was consistently mediocre last year. Yes, he's young and has some nasty stuff. He could turn out to be a very fine starter, and I'm sure many GM feel the same way. I was never for handing him away for nothing. I actually think packaging him with a couple other players could have netted us something very special and more of a sure bet. 

     

     
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    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    Skip the BS Webster has better command of three pitches than Felix has of one! 90 mph fastball vs. 97mph fastball look I think Felix is a very good young pitcher but Webster has #1 starter stuff...So to me it's not even a fair fight.

     
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    Re: Webster or Doubront?

     

     

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    I think people here are overestimating how often a rookie comes up and performs great.  Guys like Harper, Cabrera, and Pedrioa, who come up and perform at an elite level right away is just so so rare.  A guy like Bradely and Webster could very well be up down guys this year struggle a little bit and be more at an all start level in 2014/2015

    And there is NOTHING wrong with that, they both have the stuff to spend 10,12, 15 years in the bigs and make a few all start games.  

    Lava is unimpressive I'm sorry.  From what I've heard his glove is just not developing, his made improvements but he will always be a below average defender.  Sometimes guys look great in the minors and hit a ceiling and he has yet to hit at the MLB level.  Maybe he focused on his defense last year and that hurt him and this is the year he puts it all together, but he NEEDS to show us some more before he gets a 25 man spot. 



    Pedroia was awful when he first came up, but they stuck with him awhile and he blossomed.    Bradley like Pedroia gets or has IT, that intangible something that adds up to more than just talent.  Lava won defensive player award at AAA last year and his AAA hitting stats are like two ninety something with power.  Lava is impressive I'm sorry.

     
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    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    In response to soxnewmex's comment:

     

     

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

     

    I think people here are overestimating how often a rookie comes up and performs great.  Guys like Harper, Cabrera, and Pedrioa, who come up and perform at an elite level right away is just so so rare.  A guy like Bradely and Webster could very well be up down guys this year struggle a little bit and be more at an all start level in 2014/2015

    And there is NOTHING wrong with that, they both have the stuff to spend 10,12, 15 years in the bigs and make a few all start games.  

    Lava is unimpressive I'm sorry.  From what I've heard his glove is just not developing, his made improvements but he will always be a below average defender.  Sometimes guys look great in the minors and hit a ceiling and he has yet to hit at the MLB level.  Maybe he focused on his defense last year and that hurt him and this is the year he puts it all together, but he NEEDS to show us some more before he gets a 25 man spot. 

     



    Pedroia was awful when he first came up, but they stuck with him awhile and he blossomed.    Bradley like Pedroia gets or has IT, that intangible something that adds up to more than just talent.  Lava won defensive player award at AAA last year and his AAA hitting stats are like two ninety something with power.  Lava is impressive I'm sorry.

     



    Lavas defense is not impressive.  Awards are often meaningless. While lava made great strides behind the plate he is still below average on defense.  Find me one scouting report saying otherwise.  I really dont care what his stats are at pawtucket, Gomez won an MVP, does anyone think he is going to be a MLB level allstar?  Absoluteley not.  I also think player comps are a little unfair, Pedroiais not Bradley...and my whole point is that players who come up and contribute quickly is rare.  Yeah you can use how one player projects and evolves but I feel it would be unwise to assume that other players follow the same course.  There is no need to rush Bradley. 

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

     Yeah you can use how one player projects and evolves but I feel it would be unwise to assume that other players follow the same course.  There is no need to rush Bradley. 

    If he's ready- he's ready.

    My issue is that the Sox are not ready to compete, so the year of team service on the back end for JBJ makes more sense.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    They also just spent some money on two outfielders this year.  If the Sox truly believe JBJ is legit and ready they won't hold him down for long.  They are presumable shopping Gomez/Victorino.  getting a month or two of at-bats rather than splitting time at the MLB level is probably better for his development and finishing and polishing his abilities. 

     
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    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    They also just spent some money on two outfielders this year.  If the Sox truly believe JBJ is legit and ready they won't hold him down for long.  They are presumable shopping Gomez/Victorino.  getting a month or two of at-bats rather than splitting time at the MLB level is probably better for his development and finishing and polishing his abilities. 



    Did you mean they are shopping GOMES or GOMEZ and Vic? They can trade a signed FA  with the players permission before June 15--I'm pretty sure you knew that because I think I saw it in one of your recent posts.

    That opens another avenue for JBJ.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    Did I say Gomez???? opps.  Yes I doubt they approve, but you never know.  I think best case scenario is one of those guys are performing well enough to draw some interest, otherwise if Bradely is absolutely raking it in July, they will trade an outfielder (salary dump if need be) and promote JBJ, otherwise he will be up earlier in the event of an injury.

     

    I think one thing we can all agree on is JBJ will be starting in Boston at some point this season, the question is when.  We should start a pool, I say July 1st. 

     
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    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    In response to soxnewmex's comment:

    Yes, give me Webster in the starting ro, Bradley in left or right, Lava catching.  Fresh blood all around with tremendous upside, tired of these so-so guys like Doubrount Gomes Salty, we're going nowhere with their ilk.




    Bradley Jr. should never play any position besides CF.

     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    And Webster has yet to pitch above AA. Actually JBJ hasn't played an inning above AA yet either.

     
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    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    In response to mryazz's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    K's are over-rated.

     



    so is doubront. i hope i'm wrong, but doubront will probably pitch himself out of the rotation.

     

    there's something lacking in his make up that will prevent him from ever reaching his true potential. for lack of a better word, let's call it lazy.




    Good to see you've found a new target with Gonzo gone. :-)

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    They also just spent some money on two outfielders this year.  If the Sox truly believe JBJ is legit and ready they won't hold him down for long.  They are presumable shopping Gomez/Victorino.  getting a month or two of at-bats rather than splitting time at the MLB level is probably better for his development and finishing and polishing his abilities. 



    If JBJ makes the 25 man roster, he will not be "splitting time", but I do think you are right about Ben possibly having a quick trigger on SV or Gomes (at least I hope so).

    My guess is that as soon as JBJ's date comes up where we don't lose a year's service, he'll be called up, and one OF'er will be dealt. It may be Ellsbury rather than SV or Gomes.

     
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    Re: Webster or Doubront?

    In response to makonikyman's comment:

    In response to hill55's comment:

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    Doubront has good stuff , but he has not been able to consistently have command of it.  With Webster and De La Rosa coming on , Felix is definitely on the bubble. I would have Dempster on a short leash also.   We should not wait until we are 15 games out before making a move.

    Doubront to this point is very similar to Lester at the same point of development.  It's too early to make judgments on what Doubront can be.

    In his age 23 season, Jon Lester won the clinching game of the 2007 World Series.

    In his age 24 season, Lester went 16-6 with a 3.21 ERA in 33 starts covering 210.1 innings.

    In his age 24 season, Felix Doubront (who turned 25 during the World Series) went 11-10 with a 4.86 ERA in 29 starts covering 161 innings.

    Great point....his 23 season he also had a 4.57 era  and a 1.46 whip. His 22 season he had a 4.76 era and a 1.64 whip....imagine if we had given up on him because of those numbers? We would have never seen that nice 4 yr run he had, someone else would have...again, if you're going to throw stats out there , throw them all out...


    Like the 6.10 ERA and 1.94 WHIP posted by Felix Doubront in 2011 at the MLB level (to go with the 4.22 ERA and 1.29 WHIP he posted that year at Triple A).

    I wish Doubront the best,  but I don't have high expectations.

     
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