WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?

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    Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?

    In Response to WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?:
    [QUOTE]posted by Kirk Minihane/WEEI: Ben Cherington is off to a lousy start. Look, that doesn't mean he'll be a failure. This is not a GM obit, he could very easily turn out to be a terrific executive. To suggest that we should come to a verdict on Ben Cherington, GM, before Opening Day of his first year in charge would be about as stupid as it is insulting. But the early returns aren't exactly overwhelming. First, he was absolutely taken to the shed by Theo Epstein on the compensation issue. There's no other way to realistically look at it, this was bungled from the start all the way to the conclusion, which took place in the office of Dr. James Andrews. I've written this before, but the Red Sox should have been in position to hammer the Cubs. They made it clear that Theo was the guy, Theo was the Man Who Will End The Curse, Theo was the solution. Does anyone really think the Cubs were going to let an elite prospect get in the way of the all that? Not a chance. Now, I understand that there were the usual egos -- John Henry, Larry Lucchino , Tom Ricketts -- blocking the way to a quicker resolution. I'm not giving Cherington any blame for that. But, according to Cherington, once it was time to actually sit down and figure out the compensation it was he and Theo doing the negotiating. And the Cubs -- in return for a GM they made it plenty clear they had to have -- were forced to part with Chris Carpenter , the 22nd-ranked prospect in a horrific farm system and fresh off of a 6.53 ERA in Triple-A last season. At the time the deal was announced it was a complete joke -- this was the "significant compensation" Lucchino promised us? -- but after Carpenter had elbow surgery this week it graduated to disaster status. The Red Sox should have had all the power and walked away with nothing. Cherington sat down with Theo and got dusted, plain and simple. Strike One. The Theo compensation was Cherington's first real shot to make an impression, to show that he's not Lucchino's puppet, that he deserves this opportunity, that he's the right man for the job. He had one other crucial moment this offseason, one more chance -- finding a replacement for Jonathan Papelbon . I'm not going to try to rewrite history here, I thought it would have been absolute lunacy for the Sox to pay Papelbon $50 million for 50 or so innings a year. Letting Papelbon go was an unfortunate reality. With all the other key elements basically in place -- after the $300 million spent on Adrian Gonzalez and Carl Crawford you knew this was going to be a splash-free offseason -- finding a closer was really the only headliner. And they in fact went cheap -- trading Josh Reddick for Andrew Bailey. Classic case of risk vs. reward, with Bailey coming to Boston with a significant injury history. And guess what happened? Bailey -- no doubt about it, Cherington's signature move of the offseason -- will have thumb surgery and miss four months (and raise your hand if you think he's pitching at all this season). If you want to write off the Carpenter injury to bad luck, it doesn't fly with Bailey. Some guys are injury prone and some aren't. The season hasn't begun and Andrew Bailey has already made more appearances on the DL with the Sox than Papelbon did in seven seasons. Strike Two. (And no, I'm not questioning Bailey's toughness, or Josh Beckett's. I've never done that in print or on the radio. That's a very tricky thing to do; you call a guy out and you can never take it back. I have no idea what kind of pain threshold each player has, or if they want to be on the field as much as the next guy. It's just a way for media types to try to look macho, all born from blatant insecurity. No one listening thinks anyone on sports radio is tough, doesn't matter how many times you call a player a pu--y or yell about thumb injuries. Bailey is injury-prone, that's it. That's not his fault, some guys are and some guys aren't. I believe that. But when Cherington takes a risk on a pitcher with an injury history and he goes and gets injured, someone will need to explain to me why it's not Cherington's fault.) Again, this doesn't mean Cherington is or isn't the answer. Maybe Cody Ross will hit 30 homers and Mark Melancon will save 30 games and Aaron Cook will win 15 games and all of a sudden Cherington is a genius, just like we all thought Theo was in 2004. It's way too early to get near anything resembling a conclusion. But he has two major whiffs on his very short resume as a major league general manager. It may not end badly, but the beginning has been a disaster.
    Posted by 2004Idiots[/QUOTE]

    How can you judge a whiff with the foresight that something might or might not happen?  I don't get it.  I'm fine with him saying it was a whiff once we ACTUALLY KNOW IT IS, but it's too early for that. 
     
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    Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?

    "The beginning has been a disaster (????!!!!)"

    Way, way too early to go after Cherington, especially given the big role others play in GM decisions.  Right now I think John Henry has a firm hand on the purse strings, especially after the houmoungous deal for Crawford over a year ago.  Compared to that deal, Cherington can do no wrong. 

    The Cubs compensation for Theo was an impossible situation, especially when the Commissioner of MLB seemed to think it wasn't that big a deal. 

    Bailey was a gamble that failed.  It happens.  And I frankly don't think Papelbon was worth the steep price the Phillies were willing to pay. 

    What Cherington did do was make sure he kept last year's offense pretty much intact--for good reason, it was the best in MLB. 

    My guess is he actually did look hard for another starter, but decided the deal wasn't right.  I'd far rather have that than spending a ridulous amount for John Lackey or his twin. 

    I think Theo did make some good deals for the Sox, but overall I don't regret his departure all that much.  So far Cherington is avoiding the big deals, which is fine with me. 

     
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    Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?

    I don't blame Cherington at all for the compensation fiasco.  It was ownership that let Theo walk before compensation was settled, at which point the Red Sox were left with no leverage.  The Red Sox were also going up against MLB on this one, because MLB did not want to get involved and didn't want a high precedent set for executive compensatoin.

    The Bailey situation is frustrating and yes he was known to be injury prone but I guess I fall in the these things happen camp on this.  Sweeney could still turn out to be a valuable addition and in the big scheme of things the Red Sox didn't part with much to acquire Bailey.  I like Reddick but when it comes to LH OFers the Red Sox are not starving.

    The reality is that Theo left Cherington with very little flexibility.  A roster loaded with big contracts, 2 tough decisions to be made on Paps/Papi, no Manager, etc.... This team will still be mostly Theo's creation for a few more years, all Cherington can do right now is minor touch up work.
     
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    Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?

    Minihan is a Felger/Massarotti wannabe.
     
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    Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?

    Oh Kirk, pretender to the throne of a long line of idiots who play to lowest common denominator of reactionary Sox fan.  Tell ya what Kirk, I know it took a lot out of you to write your first little doom and gloom opus.  But, save a little of that revved up Cherrington-bashing juice you've concocted and write us a little something in May.  I'm guessing your imminent strike three is going to fade to black.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?

    Let's get real.

    He will only be a success if the team wins another championship...and soon.

    This has become the way it is for this franchise.

    The curse of 2004.

    2nd best will never be good enough. Making the playoffs will never be good enough. over .500 record will never be good enough.

    The bar has been raised, and it is almost impossible to satisfy the Boston fans and media.

    This is now "Bandwagon Nation." Win it all or suffer the unrelenting critical analysis of a bunch of spoiled sports. 

     
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    Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?

    In Response to Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?:
    [QUOTE]Let's get real. He will only be a success if the team wins another championship...and soon. This has become the way it is for this franchise. The curse of 2004. 2nd best will never be good enough. Making the playoffs will never be good enough. over .500 record will never be good enough. The bar has been raised, and it is almost impossible to satisfy the Boston fans and media. This is now "Bandwagon Nation." Win it all or suffer the unrelenting critical analysis of a bunch of spoiled sports. 
    Posted by ZILLAGOD[/QUOTE]

    Spoken like a true giant lizard Zil.  So true.  bandwagon nation.  I wonder if it will be possible for any of these folk to actually enjoy a season of sox ball anymore.
     
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    Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?

    re: Strike One

    I don't think Cherington is to blame for this as much as ownership for allowing Theo to leave without having the compensation completed...they lost all leverage for this once they let Theo walk to the Cubs. The fact that Cherington and the Sox medical team, accepted Carpenter appears to be a big mistake...but I again question the capability of the Sox medical braintrust for this decision...why do dical related issues surface with this team over and over again??

    re: Strike Two

    Yes, Bailey had a history of injury but could Cherington foresee the fact that the guy would need thumb surgery when he acquired him?? Should the Yankees be equally questioned for not foreseeing Pineda's injury issue?? The fact that he got Bailey for Reddick was a good trade in my opinion...Reddick had no permanent position with the big club as Kalish was breathing down his shoulder.

    I say we give this more time to play out, since one door closing (Bailey to DL) may open a window (Melancon or Aceves steps up as closer).


     
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    Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?

    In Response to Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?:
    [QUOTE]re: Strike One I don't think Cherington is to blame for this as much as ownership for allowing Theo to leave without having the compensation completed...they lost all leverage for this once they let Theo walk to the Cubs. The fact that Cherington and the Sox medical team, accepted Carpenter appears to be a big mistake...but I again question the capability of the Sox medical braintrust for this decision...why do dical related issues surface with this team over and over again?? re: Strike Two Yes, Bailey had a history of injury but could Cherington foresee the fact that the guy would need thumb surgery when he acquired him?? Should the Yankees be equally questioned for not foreseeing Pineda's injury issue?? The fact that he got Bailey for Reddick was a good trade in my opinion...Reddick had no permanent position with the big club as Kalish was breathing down his shoulder. I say we give this more time to play out, since one door closing (Bailey to DL) may open a window (Melancon or Aceves steps up as closer).
    Posted by Soxdog67[/QUOTE]

    Big difference, one has a history of being "fragile" while the other does not.

    It's like when Cashman signed nick johnson to be the DH. Was anybody suprised he spent almost the whole season on the DL?

     
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    Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?

    In Response to Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree? : Spoken like a true giant lizard Zil.  So true.  bandwagon nation.  I wonder if it will be possible for any of these folk to actually enjoy a season of sox ball anymore.
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]

    It's sad for the real baseball fans. It's sad for real sportsfans everywhere that the climate in pro sports is so hostile in this time of our lives.

    Hostile because people no longer enjoy a game anymore for what it is, entertainment.

    They want blood, they want "win at all costs" they want drama, they want to b*tch and complain.

    Yes, we do our share of complaining , too.

    I make comments that sometimes seem harsh, but I am just being honest. Frankly, I do not get upset anymore. Years ago, I would throw things and be disgusted after a loss. Mostly , I just enjoy a game and if it's a win, that's great, if it's a loss, it's alright as long as I enjoyed the game.

    What's going on in the NFL in regards to what the Saints did ( bounties for seriously injuring an opponent) is just horrible. This whole "chicken and beer" thing has really been stupid ( yes, I joke about it...what else can you do?)

    The riots in Vancouver after the Stanley Cup final , that is totally uncalled for, total ignorance and makes me embarrassed for all the fans who ever enjoyed NHL hockey ( as I once did).

    Sports should be fun, not a reality show or a soap opera. People will get hurt, teams will lose. But it shouldn't be a circumstance where it becomes a tragedy.

    It is not as fun as it used to be.
     
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    Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?

    In Response to Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree? : Big difference, one has a history of being "fragile" while the other does not. It's like when Cashman signed nick johnson to be the DH. Was anybody suprised he spent almost the whole season on the DL?
    Posted by TBINFL[/QUOTE]

    I don't know Babe.  Tendonitis already?  This is how 'histories' start.
     
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    Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?

    Kirk is 100% spot on. He said in a most balanced way that Cherington may well turn out to be a decent GM. He simply pointed out some obvious blunders so far. I do agree that the Theo compensation issue lays squarely at Henry's feet, though one could argue Ben should have been more vocal. Henry let Theo walk with a handshake instead of having a deal on paper, and he ordered Cherington to agree to Carpenter without checking him out. It is what it is. 
     
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    Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?

    And here they come. Defending the indefensible....again!
    This story is spot on. Maybe Cherington will learn to become a GM one day, but for a big-market team like Boston, we need someone with some experience under their belt. I'll bet signing Ross wasn't even his idea!
     
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    Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?

    Bean counting on Iglesias and Lavarnway was horrific!
     
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    Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?

    Strike three will be the Bard experiment. He is not ready to start.
    I have said this before and I'll say it again, he needs time to transition, maybe even a year as long relief and an occasional spot start in a non-crucial game.

     
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    Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?

    In Response to Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?:
    [QUOTE]Strike three will be the Bard experiment. He is not ready to start. I have said this before and I'll say it again, he needs time to transition, maybe even a year as long relief and an occasional spot start in a non-crucial game.
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]

    I am also quite skeptical about the Bard conversion (though, of course, I hope for success here).  Difference in my view being, if it fails, it is Strike One.

    People got real caught up in the 'significant compensation' language in the Theo departure.  But, there is absolutely zero historical precedence for any 'significant compensation' at all for the move of a front office operative.  Zero.  Thought it was pretty foolish to expect, no matter who said what.  I don't think the Sox had any expectation that they would receive a major leaguer or top minor league prospect.

    As for Bailey, no doubt his injury history made his acquisition a gamble.  But, this injury was a bang-bang play collision at first base.  Far as I can see, it has zero to do with his fragility.  And, in any case, Cherrington got another potential hoss reliever on the cheap in melancon.  Good GM work there:  Now, with the loss of our closer due to freak injury, the bottom doesnt fall out because the FO bolstered the back-end in the first place.

    So, if Bard fails, strike one.
     
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    Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?

    If Bens beginning is such a disaster, then how come the sox had a winning record for this springs grapefruit league and ended up winning the mayors cup? does that sound disasterous to you? kriky, give the guy and his new manager a chance will ya please?
     
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    Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?

    In Response to Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree? : I am also quite skeptical about the Bard conversion (though, of course, I hope for success here).  Difference in my view being, if it fails, it is Strike One. People got real caught up in the 'significant compensation' language in the Theo departure.  But, there is absolutely zero historical precedence for any 'significant compensation' at all for the move of a front office operative.  Zero.  Thought it was pretty foolish to expect, no matter who said what.  I don't think the Sox had any expectation that they would receive a major leaguer or top minor league prospect. As for Bailey, no doubt his injury history made his acquisition a gamble.  But, this injury was a bang-bang play collision at first base.  Far as I can see, it has zero to do with his fragility.  And, in any case, Cherrington got another potential hoss reliever on the cheap in melancon.  Good GM work there:  Now, with the loss of our closer due to freak injury, the bottom doesnt fall out because the FO bolstered the back-end in the first place. So, if Bard fails, strike one.
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]


    Maybe Spaceman, but you have to admit, the opposing GMs are going to school the new kid on the block, and BC strikes me as the kind of guy who has too much pride to seek advice in making deals. He played it safe this off-season not spending a lot a not making any big splashes. His only real concern, like the article said, was to find a replacement for Pap, and he went real cheap on that one.
    Me, I think the closer position is lot of hooey anyway and I think that closer by committee works just as well, unless you have a Rivera or, dare I say it, gulp!, Papelbon.
    Aceves will do just fine, as a matter of fact, I trust him more than the unproven Bailey.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from CablesWyndBairn. Show CablesWyndBairn's posts

    Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?

    Geez, the way our local scribes and talking heads are going on about this team, the new GM and new manager I think the Sox should just pack up and call it a season.  I mean, c'mon, it makes complete sense to write this team off before the first pitch is even thrown... 
     
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    Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?

    I wonder if the Red Sox will refund the money that I paid for season tickets. I only bought them because the Sox had gotten Andrew Bailey. Now that he will be out for the majority of, if not the entire, season, I feel that I am entitled to a refund - or at least a rebate.
     
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    Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?

    I agree Ben was owned in the Theo compensation negotiations.  It's hard to fault him for a jammed thumb injury with Bailey, though, and in fairness he acquired two closers this off-season, so he prepared reasonably well.  I don't know what he could have done other than re-sign Papelbon (mistake) or sign a Madson, who is not any better than Melancon.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?

    In Response to Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree? : Maybe Spaceman, but you have to admit, the opposing GMs are going to school the new kid on the block, and BC strikes me as the kind of guy who has too much pride to seek advice in making deals. He played it safe this off-season not spending a lot a not making any big splashes. His only real concern, like the article said, was to find a replacement for Pap, and he went real cheap on that one. Me, I think the closer position is lot of hooey anyway and I think that closer by committee works just as well, unless you have a Rivera or, dare I say it, gulp!, Papelbon. Aceves will do just fine, as a matter of fact, I trust him more than the unproven Bailey.
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]

    Ike.  Ike.  You contradict yourself.  You have criticized Ben for being subject to Larry Lar's decision-making.  Now he is too prideful to seek advice in making deals?  Which is it?  

    And, you think he screwed up his 'only real concern' by signing not one, but two, potential young stud closers who will be under club control for a good while for relatively cheap ... and then say that it doesn;t matter anyway because closer is hooey?  (I happen to agree that it is overrated).  Which is it? 

    Your statements reflect a serious hard-on to criticize our young GM.  fine.  Easy target.  He has no body of work to give him any cache.  But, you are just looking for any straw to grasp at.  And, if you think you know something that a guy who has been in the inner circle of baseball front offices going back to the nineties, I gotta say Ike, I seriously doubt it.
     
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    Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?

    In Response to Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?:
    [QUOTE]Bean counting on Iglesias and Lavarnway was horrific!
    Posted by hankwilliamsjr[/QUOTE]

    The term 'bean counting' is also horrific. 

    Steering every discussion to one's own worn out soap box issues is also horrific.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from proftom2. Show proftom2's posts

    Re: WEEI Kirk Minihane:Terrible start to Ben Cherington era-2 strikes already! Do you agree?

    Nha, he is taken over a shiking ship Theo left crashed and left behind. Be will be fine, just give him some time 
     
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