What about Salty?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:

    As for defense...I don't use any stats, I've always gone with what I see, and have not had an issue with it before. We all know GOOD defense when we see it, we all know BAD defense when we see it. Drew was neither. He was somewhere between very solid, and good, defensively. Range - ok. Hands - pretty good. Feet - definitely above average. He's fine.

    Offensively? Wholly underwhelming.

    - 19th in at bats, which given his age and injury history, makes me less than comfortable trusting him for a whole season.

    - his .253 avg didn't qualify as he didn't reach the minimum 502 ABs (see above), but avg, alone, slotted with the qualifying players ranks him 11 out of 19.

    - had the 21st most hits of any ss in baseball (meaning a few with less ABs had more hits)

    - 22nd in games played

    - 50 extra base hits (8 triples!) which puts him about 8th overall, and is his one saving grace

    - his .777 ops would put him 4th if he qualified.

    Looking at all that, I'd say he is far from EASILY a top ten offensive SS.



    4th in OPS.

    8th in HR and 5th in RBI in spite of missing 38 games - most of which, BTW, were because he got hit in the head with a baseball.

    I think what you're overlooking is that most SS's are worse than underwhelming on offense.

    Some of the guys you listed had OPS's 100 points or more lower than Drew's.

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    And Moon, nothing personal, the WAR stat is totally useless to me. Totally, utterly, and completely useless. I've said that for a few years now, so showing me how Stephen Drew rates on that broken scale does nothing for me. Reminds me of theo once saying "According to OUR metrics, JD Drew is worth a tick above what we're paying him." Drew is top ten in some broken stat?

    Drew is top 10 in OPS and Fielding. Are those broken stats too?

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:

    As for defense...I don't use any stats, I've always gone with what I see, and have not had an issue with it before. We all know GOOD defense when we see it, we all know BAD defense when we see it. Drew was neither. He was somewhere between very solid, and good, defensively. Range - ok. Hands - pretty good. Feet - definitely above average. He's fine.

    Offensively? Wholly underwhelming.

    - 19th in at bats, which given his age and injury history, makes me less than comfortable trusting him for a whole season.

    - his .253 avg didn't qualify as he didn't reach the minimum 502 ABs (see above), but avg, alone, slotted with the qualifying players ranks him 11 out of 19.

    - had the 21st most hits of any ss in baseball (meaning a few with less ABs had more hits)

    - 22nd in games played

    - 50 extra base hits (8 triples!) which puts him about 8th overall, and is his one saving grace

    - his .777 ops would put him 4th if he qualified.

    Looking at all that, I'd say he is far from EASILY a top ten offensive SS.



    4th in OPS.

    8th in HR and 5th in RBI in spite of missing 38 games - most of which, BTW, were because he got hit in the head with a baseball.

    I think what you're overlooking is that most SS's are worse than underwhelming on offense.

    Some of the guys you listed had OPS's 100 points or more lower than Drew's.

     




    This is what most people do. SS and Catchers in MLB do not have good offensive numbers for the most part. The average SS OPS is like .680. Drew was 100pts higher than that with solid defense. stellar at times. And he had to deal with that concussion that Im sure lingers a bit. Hes one of the better two way SS in the league. It seems if players dont have all star numbers some people downplay how good they actually are. Compared to the rest of the players at that particular position, Drew, and Salty for that matter, were pretty darn good.

     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    Alex Speier has us down for about $32M to spend this winter.

     

    http://www.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/alex-speier/2013/11/08/how-much-can-red-sox-spend-winter-2014-payroll

     

    I would not us a big part of that on Drew, despite the fact that he is a top 6 of 7 offensive SS and top 13-17 defensive SS in MLB.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    And Moon, nothing personal, the WAR stat is totally useless to me. Totally, utterly, and completely useless. I've said that for a few years now, so showing me how Stephen Drew rates on that broken scale does nothing for me. Reminds me of theo once saying "According to OUR metrics, JD Drew is worth a tick above what we're paying him." Drew is top ten in some broken stat?

    Drew is top 10 in OPS and Fielding. Are those broken stats too?



    Fielding percentage is a totally broken stat. Only account for balls they got to. If a SS stands on the field and attempts 1 play all year, and makes it, his fielding percentage would be perfect.

    OPS is fine.

    I don't look to SS for offense, up and down the order, this is where I'd WANT my offense to come from:

    1B

    DH

    3B

    Corner OF

    Corner OF

    CF

    C

    2B

    SS

    Maybe this above ranking is my problem. Drew's offense is fine in comparison to other SS, but is nothing special. His D is fine. I'd rather have a defenseive GURU, or someone like Bogaerts who's potential is off the charts. What is Drew going to do? Be ok, below average, above average, maybe hurt (AGAIN). My issue is that they could potentially wrap up 14 mil for a season of him, bringing his deal to 2/23-24, and either moving, or delaying Bogaerts.

    This, in the face of NOT tendering Salty...it just makes very little sense to me. Again, maybe they don't really want him back, and intend on him being elsewhere. If so, then my frustration is totally unfounded. 

    I stand by what I said. If you want to go with 2 impressive offensive stats over the half dozen negative ones...fine.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    According to these tweets, FanGraphs columnist would rather have catcher Ryan Hanigan over Jarrod Saltalamacchia:

    https://twitter.com/DCameronFG/status/398864389719490561

    https://twitter.com/DCameronFG/status/398863901301145600

    The Cincinnati Reds reportedly could make Hanigan available in a trade:

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/11/reds-likely-to-move-ryan-hanigan.html

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    And Moon, nothing personal, the WAR stat is totally useless to me. Totally, utterly, and completely useless. I've said that for a few years now, so showing me how Stephen Drew rates on that broken scale does nothing for me. Reminds me of theo once saying "According to OUR metrics, JD Drew is worth a tick above what we're paying him." Drew is top ten in some broken stat?

    Drew is top 10 in OPS and Fielding. Are those broken stats too?

     



    Fielding percentage is a totally broken stat. Only account for balls they got to. If a SS stands on the field and attempts 1 play all year, and makes it, his fielding percentage would be perfect.

    I did not say FLG%, I said fielding. I never use FLG%

    OPS is fine.

    I don't look to SS for offense, up and down the ...ever. It is just about the most useless stat in MLB.

    I agree, but when a poster says the Drew was " Offensively? Wholly underwhelming. ", I have to respond to show the opposite is true.

    order, this is where I'd WANT my offense to come from:

    1B

    DH

    3B

    Corner OF

    Corner OF

    CF

    C

    2B

    SS

    Maybe this above ranking is my problem. Drew's offense is fine in comparison to other SS, but is nothing special. His D is fine. I'd rather have a defenseive GURU, or someone like Bogaerts who's potential is off the charts. What is Drew going to do? Be ok, below average, above average, maybe hurt (AGAIN). My issue is that they could potentially wrap up 14 mil for a season of him, bringing his deal to 2/23-24, and either moving, or delaying Bogaerts.

    I'm all for defensive gurus at SS. It has been my mantra for years and years. Drew surprised me with his defense, and I do no view him as any more injury prone than others.

    This, in the face of NOT tendering Salty...it just makes very little sense to me. Again, maybe they don't really want him back, and intend on him being elsewhere. If so, then my frustration is totally unfounded. 

    They did not "non tender" Salty, they just didn't offer him a QO.

     

    I stand by what I said. If you want to go with 2 impressive offensive stats over the half dozen negative ones...fine.

    I can come up with a dozen impressive offensive stats, if that makes you feel any better.




     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to BMav's comment:

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:

    In response to BMav's comment:

    I disagree. Here is a stat in pitch framing that says he was slightly below average from 2008-2012.

    http://www.baseballanalytics.org/baseball-analytics-blog/2013/3/9/jose-molina-ryan-doumit-and-snatching-strikes.html?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=BaseballAnalytics.org

    He might be better then these stats say, but I think his pitch framing is up for debate. McCann is better at it I think.

    McCann is still one of the best at receiving pitches (top 5) and better than Salty defensively.  Here is the latest study I could find from BP for 2013:

    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=21855

    Unfortunately, it doesn't give a complete list of all the catchers, but McCann is #5 and Salty is not in the top 10. 

     



    That article also showed the top 5 in framing pitches from AA-AAA. Our very own Christian Vasquez ranked 2nd....
    Christian Vazquez, 23, Red Sox: -20.9 (7599)

    We already know he has a GREAT arm. If he calls a good game, I would not mind going with him this season.

    Thanks for that link.



    I'm sure I saw a study somewhere that showed Salty as one of the top pitch framers in MLB.




    Fangraphs had Yasmani Grandal as the best, with Hank Conger second.  David Ross was third.  No mention of Saltalamacchia in this study.

     

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/presenting-2013s-surprising-top-two-pitch-framers/

     

    They do have Francisco Cervelli as 5th, which makes me wonder exactly when he was framing those pitches.  The guy caught like 130 innings last year....

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    McCann is not "much better" than any catcher defensively.

    His CS% is just about a point better.

    Salty does well blocking bad pitches and framing pitches, and has the familiarity factor with our staff. He has greatly improved his numbers with our pitchers over the last 2-3 years.

    I have posted many times that I agree that Salty is improving.  I have also posted that in terms of value, Salty would be a better deal than McCann.  I do not want to sign McCann to a long term deal.  I prefer to have Salty back since he knows the staff and he continues to work hard and improve, although I do not want to sign him to a long term deal either.  I like Salty and I hope he is back with the team, so this is not an attempt to bash him in any way.

    That said, I disagree that McCann and Salty are the same defensively.

    I admit that I am probably overrating McCann's defense some based on his past reputation as being one of the best defensive catchers in baseball.  However, I think you are either underrating McCann or overrating Salty in terms of defense.

    We both know that as far as catcher defense goes, CS% is probably the least important.  In terms of game calling, pitch framing, and working with a staff, those skills do not decline with age.  IIRC, Smoltz appointed McCann as his personal catcher at a very young age, which I think says a lot about his ability behind the plate.  I've already posted a link from BP that has McCann ranked 5th in terms of pitch framing ability this year.

    Here is another study for 2013 that ranks catchers on areas other than game calling and pitch framing - stolen bases, passed balls/wild pitches, and fielding and throwing errors.  McCann ranks 6th while Salty ranks 77th. 

    http://blogs.thescore.com/mlb/2013/08/29/fogging-the-measure-catcher-defense-ratings-august-29-2013/

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from RSF4Life234. Show RSF4Life234's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    McCann is not "much better" than any catcher defensively.

    His CS% is just about a point better.

    Salty does well blocking bad pitches and framing pitches, and has the familiarity factor with our staff. He has greatly improved his numbers with our pitchers over the last 2-3 years.

     

     

    I have posted many times that I agree that Salty is improving.  I have also posted that in terms of value, Salty would be a better deal than McCann.  I do not want to sign McCann to a long term deal.  I prefer to have Salty back since he knows the staff and he continues to work hard and improve, although I do not want to sign him to a long term deal either.  I like Salty and I hope he is back with the team, so this is not an attempt to bash him in any way.

    That said, I disagree that McCann and Salty are the same defensively.

    I admit that I am probably overrating McCann's defense some based on his past reputation as being one of the best defensive catchers in baseball.  However, I think you are either underrating McCann or overrating Salty in terms of defense.

    We both know that as far as catcher defense goes, CS% is probably the least important.  In terms of game calling, pitch framing, and working with a staff, those skills do not decline with age.  IIRC, Smoltz appointed McCann as his personal catcher at a very young age, which I think says a lot about his ability behind the plate.  I've already posted a link from BP that has McCann ranked 5th in terms of pitch framing ability this year.

    Here is another study for 2013 that ranks catchers on areas other than game calling and pitch framing - stolen bases, passed balls/wild pitches, and fielding and throwing errors.  McCann ranks 6th while Salty ranks 77th. 

    http://blogs.thescore.com/mlb/2013/08/29/fogging-the-measure-catcher-defense-ratings-august-29-2013/

     



    When ranked by cera (not that I'm a believer) salty is ranked 7th while mcann doesn't even make the top 15. I do think you are severely overating mccans defensive prowess. never once in my life have I heard mccan referred to as a top defensive catcher. mccan has pretty much always been a bat first catcher.

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding/_/position/c/sort/catcherERA/

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    Offensively? Wholly underwhelming.

    - 19th in at bats, which given his age and injury history, makes me less than comfortable trusting him for a whole season.

    - his .253 avg didn't qualify as he didn't reach the minimum 502 ABs (see above), but avg, alone, slotted with the qualifying players ranks him 11 out of 19.

    - had the 21st most hits of any ss in baseball (meaning a few with less ABs had more hits)

    - 22nd in games played

     

    ...I stand by what I said. If you want to go with 2 impressive offensive stats over the half dozen negative ones...fine.

     

    Most of the 4 stats you listed as negative all had to do with the lack of playing time due to injuries. Counting ABs and Games played is a bit redundant.

    Here are so me other numbers to ponder, but remember, you don't have to be top 10 in every category to be top 10 overall. Most SSs on this list have many more "negatives" than Drew:

    OK, Drew was 20th in games played at SS, but it takes going down to 350 PAs to get the SS sample size to 30 SSs. (Drew is 18th in PAs at 501.)

    Out of the top 30 SSs by PAs: Drew is...

    16th in BA at .253

    8th in OBP at .333

    5th in SLG at .443

    6th in wOBA

    6th in OPS at .777 (3rd among SSs with 500+ PAs)

    8th in wRC+

    7th in HRs

    2nd in 3Bs

    10th in 2Bs

    6th in 2B+3B

    5th in RBI (even though 16th in PA, hmm...)

    16th in runs

    8th in SF

    2nd in lowest GDP rate

    2nd in ISO at .190

    5th in Spd at 6.1

    8th in Batting at 5.1 (Fangraph's Value page)

    7th in RAR at 31.3

    7th in value on fangraph's at $16.9M

     

    On Defense:

    (17th in innings at SS with 1093)

    16th in PO at 176

    17th in Assists at 386

    7th in UZR/150 at +6.7

    9th in UZR (a finction that weighs innings played heavily)

    10th in RngR at +3.3

    11th in DPR at +0.4

    11th in ErrR at +1.4

    11th in Defense at +10.9

    4th in Flg% at .985 (for those who think this stat matters much)

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: What about Salty?


    I have misgivings about just letting Salty walk.  A QO makes sense to me if for nothing else to get the draft pick.  I do think he has been widely disrepected, especially on this forum.  He has improved every year. In almost all categories - HRs dropped off some this year, but his doubles and every other offensive area.  OK, his wiffs have increased too ...

    I keep thinking Lava will "catch on" - but he appears to be given little chance on the MLB level.  I would like to think he has his opportunity ahead, but if his bat finally translates to the big, he may be more in the level of replacing Papi when he retires - if he retires .... certainly not this season.

    I think the clock is ticking on Lavarnway with the 2 others pushing him from below.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to SinceYaz's comment:


    I have misgivings about just letting Salty walk.  A QO makes sense to me if for nothing else to get the draft pick.  I do think he has been widely disrepected, especially on this forum.  He has improved every year. In almost all categories - HRs dropped off some this year, but his doubles and every other offensive area.  OK, his wiffs have increased too ...

    I keep thinking Lava will "catch on" - but he appears to be given little chance on the MLB level.  I would like to think he has his opportunity ahead, but if his bat finally translates to the big, he may be more in the level of replacing Papi when he retires - if he retires .... certainly not this season.

    I think the clock is ticking on Lavarnway with the 2 others pushing him from below.



    If Lava, Vazquez, or Swihart push Salty our of a job, then we just trade him. Catchers are high demand position players.

    I don't get the people who want us to sign Ruiz to $16M/2 over Salty at $27-30M/3.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to RSF4Life234's comment:

    When ranked by cera (not that I'm a believer) salty is ranked 7th while mcann doesn't even make the top 15. I do think you are severely overating mccans defensive prowess. never once in my life have I heard mccan referred to as a top defensive catcher. mccan has pretty much always been a bat first catcher.

     

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding/_/position/c/sort/catcherERA/

     

    You are looking at the list of "Qualified" catchers.  McCann is not on the list because he did not have quite enough innings to qualify.  If you expand the list to "Non-Qualified", McCann is 12th (He is actually 1st among catchers with a meaningful number of games caught) and Salty drops to 58th.

    However, as good as that makes Salty appear, comparing catchers' CERA in that manner is not valid.  Different pitching staffs and different leagues must be taken into account.

    McCann might be known for his offense, but he has rated as one of the top defensive catchers in terms of pitch framing, blocking pitches in the dirt, and game calling. 

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from seabeachfred. Show seabeachfred's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to SinceYaz's comment:


    I have misgivings about just letting Salty walk.  A QO makes sense to me if for nothing else to get the draft pick.  I do think he has been widely disrepected, especially on this forum.  He has improved every year. In almost all categories - HRs dropped off some this year, but his doubles and every other offensive area.  OK, his wiffs have increased too ...

    I keep thinking Lava will "catch on" - but he appears to be given little chance on the MLB level.  I would like to think he has his opportunity ahead, but if his bat finally translates to the big, he may be more in the level of replacing Papi when he retires - if he retires .... certainly not this season.

    I think the clock is ticking on Lavarnway with the 2 others pushing him from below.



    If Lava, Vazquez, or Swihart push Salty our of a job, then we just trade him. Catchers are high demand position players.

    I don't get the people who want us to sign Ruiz to $16M/2 over Salty at $27-30M/3.




    I don't get it either Moonslav.  Jarrod has improved each year he has been with us while Ruiz seems to have started a downward trend and reports are that he was an attitude problem with the Phillies this past season.  Why take one of their problems when Salty is younger and an improving receiver who is a good team player and popular with his teammates.  We should resign him to keep the lefty-righty platoon with Ross instead of two righties of ages into their mid 30's.  The Red Sox have to be careful they don't overturn their whole roster of free agents and undo the chemistry and team unity so prevelant with our 2013 WS Champions.

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:

    In response to RSF4Life234's comment:

    When ranked by cera (not that I'm a believer) salty is ranked 7th while mcann doesn't even make the top 15. I do think you are severely overating mccans defensive prowess. never once in my life have I heard mccan referred to as a top defensive catcher. mccan has pretty much always been a bat first catcher.

     

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding/_/position/c/sort/catcherERA/

     

    You are looking at the list of "Qualified" catchers.  McCann is not on the list because he did not have quite enough innings to qualify.  If you expand the list to "Non-Qualified", McCann is 12th (He is actually 1st among catchers with a meaningful number of games caught) and Salty drops to 58th.

    However, as good as that makes Salty appear, comparing catchers' CERA in that manner is not valid.  Different pitching staffs and different leagues must be taken into account.

    McCann might be known for his offense, but he has rated as one of the top defensive catchers in terms of pitch framing, blocking pitches in the dirt, and game calling. 



    I've never heard of McCann being even a plus defensive catcher let alone a top one. 

     

    The Fielding Bible does not have McCann in it's top 10 this year. He finished in 15th place, and Salty finished in 18th (ahead of Ruiz). 

    McCann finsihed in 19th place in 2012.

    He got no votes in 2010 (Salty finished 23rd out of 24 with votes)

    2009: McCann finished 17th

    2008: 19th (1 of the 10 panelists had him ranked #10)

    2007: 20th (1 voter placed him 10th)

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    If Lava, Vazquez, or Swihart push Salty our of a job, then we just trade him. Catchers are high demand position players.

    I don't get the people who want us to sign Ruiz to $16M/2 over Salty at $27-30M/3.

    [/QUOTE]


    I don't get it either Moonslav.  Jarrod has improved each year he has been with us while Ruiz seems to have started a downward trend and reports are that he was an attitude problem with the Phillies this past season.  Why take one of their problems when Salty is younger and an improving receiver who is a good team player and popular with his teammates.  We should resign him to keep the lefty-righty platoon with Ross instead of two righties of ages into their mid 30's.  The Red Sox have to be careful they don't overturn their whole roster of free agents and undo the chemistry and team unity so prevelant with our 2013 WS Champions.

     

    I do think McCann would be an upgrade over Salty, but it is not a clear cut issue.

    I do not think he can be the big Papi line-up protector we need, and his added cost will keep us from upgrading at other positions of higher need.

    I don't see him as our future DH or 1Bman. His bat is not that good to play those positions.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from RSF4Life234. Show RSF4Life234's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:

    In response to RSF4Life234's comment:

    When ranked by cera (not that I'm a believer) salty is ranked 7th while mcann doesn't even make the top 15. I do think you are severely overating mccans defensive prowess. never once in my life have I heard mccan referred to as a top defensive catcher. mccan has pretty much always been a bat first catcher.

     

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding/_/position/c/sort/catcherERA/

     

    You are looking at the list of "Qualified" catchers.  McCann is not on the list because he did not have quite enough innings to qualify.  If you expand the list to "Non-Qualified", McCann is 12th (He is actually 1st among catchers with a meaningful number of games caught) and Salty drops to 58th.

    However, as good as that makes Salty appear, comparing catchers' CERA in that manner is not valid.  Different pitching staffs and different leagues must be taken into account.

    McCann might be known for his offense, but he has rated as one of the top defensive catchers in terms of pitch framing, blocking pitches in the dirt, and game calling. 



    So the braves who have had consistently strong starting pitching effected McCann cera negatively?

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    So the braves who have had consistently strong starting pitching effected McCann cera negatively?

     

    CERA should not be used to compare ctachers from different teams.

    Overall CERA should not even be used to compare two catchers from the same team.

    Instead, CERA should only be used to compare two catchers on the same team with each pitcher one by one. Sample sizes should be taken into consideration.

    If we sign McCann, I will go back and look at his comparissons with other catchers on his team, but it is too much work to do over a "what if". (Also, if his teammate catcher is not known as a good CERA catcher, then having better numbers may not tell us much anyways.)

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    I've never heard of McCann being even a plus defensive catcher let alone a top one. 

     

    The Fielding Bible does not have McCann in it's top 10 this year. He finished in 15th place, and Salty finished in 18th (ahead of Ruiz). 

    McCann finsihed in 19th place in 2012.

    He got no votes in 2010 (Salty finished 23rd out of 24 with votes)

    2009: McCann finished 17th

    2008: 19th (1 of the 10 panelists had him ranked #10)

    2007: 20th (1 voter placed him 10th)




    When it comes to catcher defense, there are two different areas that are involved - actual fielding and handling of the pitching staff.  For me, the most important aspect of a catcher's defense is the handling of the staff.  I think for many others, the fielding aspect is the one that is emphasized (and too often CS%) and that is why many people do not consider McCann a good defensive catcher. 

    The Fielding Bible rates catchers defense in four categories - Catcher Adjusted Earned Runs, which is similar to CERA but adjusted for park and pitcher, Catcher Stolen Base Runs, Bunt Runs, and Good Plays/Misplays Runs.  As you can see, most of their rating system is based on fielding rather than handling of the staff.

    I do not dismiss the Fielding Bible Awards, as I think they are spot on with their awards.  And defensive worth does encompass all areas of catcher defense, so being able to field a bunt, for instance, becomes part of the defensive worth.  Where McCann places in the Fielding Bible Awards is certainly a fair and valid point.

    That said, in all the numerous studies conducted by the guys at BP, McCann's name repeatedly shows up in the list of top defenders when it comes to pitch framing, blocking pitches, and calling a good game.   Also interesting to note is that Varitek, whom I believe we both consider one of the best at handling a staff, only broke the top 10 voting once.  He is another pitcher who does not rate as well with the fielding aspect of defense.

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    Here are some of the reports that I am looking at:

    In an analysis of the best pitcher handlers since 1948, McCann ranked 34th.

    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=16199    (Sorry, the link thing is not working for me.)

     

    In an analysis of the best pitch framers from 2008-2011, McCann ranked 12th.  As you've already noted, Salty ranked 11th in that same study.

    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=15093

     

    In an analysis of the best pitch blockers from 2008-2011, McCann ranked 4th.

    http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/another-one-bites-the-dust/

     

    In an analysis of the best game callers from 2008-2011, McCann ranked 10th.

    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=16096

     

    In an analysis of the most valuable catchers for the first part of 2012, McCann ranked 2nd defensively.

    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=17623

     

    I've already posted two other links ranking McCann as the 5th best pitch framer this year and 6th in terms of fielding.

     

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    I've never heard of McCann being even a plus defensive catcher let alone a top one. 

     

    The Fielding Bible does not have McCann in it's top 10 this year. He finished in 15th place, and Salty finished in 18th (ahead of Ruiz). 

    McCann finsihed in 19th place in 2012.

    He got no votes in 2010 (Salty finished 23rd out of 24 with votes)

    2009: McCann finished 17th

    2008: 19th (1 of the 10 panelists had him ranked #10)

    2007: 20th (1 voter placed him 10th)

    [/QUOTE]


    When it comes to catcher defense, there are two different areas that are involved - actual fielding and handling of the pitching staff.  For me, the most important aspect of a catcher's defense is the handling of the staff.  I think for many others, the fielding aspect is the one that is emphasized (and too often CS%) and that is why many people do not consider McCann a good defensive catcher. 

    I agree, but I am not one of those people who think that a catcher who allows 10-20 more SBs than the norm is enough to outweigh other aspects of his position, such as pitch-framing, blocking bad pitches, making plays in front of the plate and at the plate. I agree though, handling the staff is more important than all those things put together.

     

    The Fielding Bible rates catchers defense in four categories - Catcher Adjusted Earned Runs, which is similar to CERA but adjusted for park and pitcher, Catcher Stolen Base Runs, Bunt Runs, and Good Plays/Misplays Runs.  As you can see, most of their rating system is based on fielding rather than handling of the staff.

    The Fielding Bible is not stat based. It is 10 guys rating the player 1 to 10. While some of the people on the list are dubious experts, I respect their cumulative rating more than the GG award/

     

    I do not dismiss the Fielding Bible Awards, as I think they are spot on with their awards.  And defensive worth does encompass all areas of catcher defense, so being able to field a bunt, for instance, becomes part of the defensive worth.  Where McCann places in the Fielding Bible Awards is certainly a fair and valid point.

    That said, in all the numerous studies conducted by the guys at BP, McCann's name repeatedly shows up in the list of top defenders when it comes to pitch framing, blocking pitches, and calling a good game.  

    Except the study I provided.

     

    Also interesting to note is that Varitek, whom I believe we both consider one of the best at handling a staff, only broke the top 10 voting once.  He is another pitcher who does not rate as well with the fielding aspect of defense.

    As far as I know, "The Bible" only started in 2006. VTek was best from 2003-2007. Again, his arm hurt his ovrall score, and I agree that it hurt McCann and salty's rating more than it should have, but I still have not seen enough evidence to conclude that McCann is one of the best defensive catchers in MLB, even when weighting CERA-related areas heavily.  One cannot compare McCann's CERA to a catcher on a team with horrible pitching or a matchbox park or tougher offensive opponents or worse fielding teams behind him.

    (Someday, I may go back 4-5 years and check out how McCann stacks up to the other Atlanta catcher pitcher by pitcher on ERA and OPS against.)

    I am keeping an open mind. I was wrong about Aviles and Drew at SS, so I may be wrong about McCann. If we do sign him, there may be a learning curve to go through first, but he probably wont be much better or worse than Salty in any area of defense. I do think he is better than Salty on offense, despite the recent 2 year comparative and the trend curves assoiciated with Salty and McCann, but not $5-6M more a year better and not 1-3 years longer either.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    Here are some of the reports that I am looking at:

    In an analysis of the best pitcher handlers since 1948, McCann ranked 34th.

    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=16199    (Sorry, the link thing is not working for me.)

     

    In an analysis of the best pitch framers from 2008-2011, McCann ranked 12th.  As you've already noted, Salty ranked 11th in that same study.

    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=15093

     

    In an analysis of the best pitch blockers from 2008-2011, McCann ranked 4th.

    http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/another-one-bites-the-dust/

     

    In an analysis of the best game callers from 2008-2011, McCann ranked 10th.

    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=16096

     

    In an analysis of the most valuable catchers for the first part of 2012, McCann ranked 2nd defensively.

    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=17623

     

    I've already posted two other links ranking McCann as the 5th best pitch framer this year and 6th in terms of fielding.

     

     

    Very compelling data, kimmi. Thanks for the info. McCann certainly looks better than I initially gave him credit for. I'm not sure how much these studies factor in that he had a great staff year after year, but I guess one could argue that they were great, in part, due to McCann.

     

    If he is indeed a top 5 "handler of the staff", I'd pay him $5-6M more than Salty, but looking over these cahrts, it makes me want Jose Molina!

    Again, thanks for the well supported post.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to SinceYaz's comment:


    I have misgivings about just letting Salty walk.  A QO makes sense to me if for nothing else to get the draft pick.  I do think he has been widely disrepected, especially on this forum.  He has improved every year. In almost all categories - HRs dropped off some this year, but his doubles and every other offensive area.  OK, his wiffs have increased too ...

    I keep thinking Lava will "catch on" - but he appears to be given little chance on the MLB level.  I would like to think he has his opportunity ahead, but if his bat finally translates to the big, he may be more in the level of replacing Papi when he retires - if he retires .... certainly not this season.

    I think the clock is ticking on Lavarnway with the 2 others pushing him from below.



    If Lava, Vazquez, or Swihart push Salty our of a job, then we just trade him. Catchers are high demand position players.

    I don't get the people who want us to sign Ruiz to $16M/2 over Salty at $27-30M/3.




    I'm with you here, Moon.

    And now that Ruiz is still a Phillie and the Bombers have signed McAnn, Salty is still the viable MLB catcher available.  If any of the trio you mention pushes Salty out, that can only be good news.  Salty becomes a valid trading chip ... if signed.

     
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