What are the pro's & cons of using a 6 man rotation, rather than a 5 man rotation?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoxRuleTheRoost. Show SoxRuleTheRoost's posts

    What are the pro's & cons of using a 6 man rotation, rather than a 5 man rotation?

    A 5 man rotation has slot 1 & 2 starting 33 games. Slots 3 - 5 starting 32 games. If we are shooting for 6 innings a start average, that would be 198 innings for slots 1 & 2. It would be 192 innings for slots 3 - 5. A 6 man rotation would have slots 1 - 6 starting 27 games. If we are shooting for the same 6 innings a start average, that would be 162 innings for each slot. Which is 36 fewer innings for slots 1 & 2, and 30 fewer innings for slots 3-5. I'm not advocating either just wondering what you think. A few of the pertinent questions would seem to be: 1. Could the starters adjust to the change? 2. Would saving wear and tear on our starters be worth, 6 fewer starts by Lester & Becket & 5 fewer starts by Buc? 3. Could we qualify for the playoffs? 4. Did Bobby V, use a 6 man rotation in Japan? 5. Would it make the transition easier for Bard & Ace? 6. Even if both Bard & Ace made the transition seamlessly, could We get a 6th starter? 7. If we qualified for the playoffs would our starters be better, having saved the bullets, so to speak?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: What are the pro's & cons of using a 6 man rotation, rather than a 5 man rotation?

    It's only a matter of time before that trend starts. When I was a kid, teams used a four man rotation, and you rarely heard of a five.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: What are the pro's & cons of using a 6 man rotation, rather than a 5 man rotation?

    It should not ever happen, and it would only open the door for people to wonder about 7 man rotations. 
     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: What are the pro's & cons of using a 6 man rotation, rather than a 5 man rotation?

    If people want to save arms I would rather they cut the season 30 games a year... talk about watering down a slow sport already. We don't need 3 Wakefields or Millers on the staff just so  a baby like Beckett can pitch fewer 5 inning games each year.


     
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    Re: What are the pro's & cons of using a 6 man rotation, rather than a 5 man rotation?

    I was also wondering if pitching less often would allow the starters to pitch deeper in the games during the season? Also does anybody know if Bobby V used a 6 man rotation, if so he would know how to do it. Would it be easier to prepare the pitchers in spring training, for a 6 man, rather than a 5 man rotation? Unless both Bard & Ace are effective, the whole idea wouldn't seem feasible.
     
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    Re: What are the pro's & cons of using a 6 man rotation, rather than a 5 man rotation?

    Maybe, 5 innings of quality starts is a result of the "Bullpenners Union's" lobbying, certainly it seems that way some times. I know it has driven up the $ Contracts of those in the pen and prolonged many careers. e.g. saw the Blue Jays just signed Darren Oliver who has made a very nice income for many seasons pitching for contenders. A couple of decades ago, pitchers gave us 9 innings a game win lose or draw. Anyway, the days of Warren Spahn, Gregg Maddox et. al. winning 300+ games, with so many complete or almost, is gone.  Dave Wallace and John Farrell have taught fans that having to use 6 or more starters over the length of a season is common. Injures and conditioning or lack therof have something to do with that and I, for one, think not coming out of ST with at least 6 starters and 2, 3, or 4 pitchers at AA and AAA means your team may not be healthy enough by the end of the season to have a starting rotation worth much. The luxury tax has taken some of the ability of even the wealthiest teams to stockpile pitchers. The Red Sox and Yankees have been doing that for years and this offseason, it seems even those 2 teams are more conservative about signing every pitcher still breathing and then sorting them out in Spring Training and in the minor league season. It may have become even more important which pitchers are a team's 4, 5, 6 and "so on" pitchers in the rotation. The Red Sox have 3 top notch starters Beckett, Lester and Buccholz and despite their beer and fried chicken diets, all have very good stuff, experience and the ability everytime 1 goes to the mound to pitch a masterpiece or win a Cy Young. The goal of GM's, Managers and Pitching coaches will be to round out the pitching order so that when one of the top 3 or 4 starters twists an ankle, gets tenderness in his shoulder, elbow or indigestion from the Popeye's Fried Chicken, that another pitcher in the order will be able to keep the team in the marathon race which MLB is. Tim Wakefield has been so valuable in filling one of those roles for so long, and I am not suggesting Tim should be brought back in 2012, it also explains why Terry Francona had so much hope in Andrew Miller and gave Miller and Wakefield so many starts. Let's give Ben Cherington a chance to round out the rotation, Ben's patience seems to bring good players/pitchers (Andrew Bailey, Ryan Sweeney, Mark Melancon, Kelly Shoppach, Nick Punto) as he waits for them. And Ben know it only takes a few of Junichi Tazawa, Andrew Miller, Rich Hill, Michael Bowden, Felix Doubront to come through.   
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: What are the pro's & cons of using a 6 man rotation, rather than a 5 man rotation?

    In Response to What are the pro's & cons of using a 6 man rotation, rather than a 5 man rotation?:
    A 5 man rotation has slot 1 & 2 starting 33 games. Slots 3 - 5 starting 32 games. If we are shooting for 6 innings a start average, that would be 198 innings for slots 1 & 2. It would be 192 innings for slots 3 - 5. A 6 man rotation would have slots 1 - 6 starting 27 games. If we are shooting for the same 6 innings a start average, that would be 162 innings for each slot. Which is 36 fewer innings for slots 1 & 2, and 30 fewer innings for slots 3-5. I'm not advocating either just wondering what you think. A few of the pertinent questions would seem to be: 1. Could the starters adjust to the change? 2. Would saving wear and tear on our starters be worth, 6 fewer starts by Lester & Becket & 5 fewer starts by Buc? 3. Could we qualify for the playoffs? 4. Did Bobby V, use a 6 man rotation in Japan? 5. Would it make the transition easier for Bard & Ace? 6. Even if both Bard & Ace made the transition seamlessly, could We get a 6th starter? 7. If we qualified for the playoffs would our starters be better, having saved the bullets, so to speak?
    Posted by SoxRuleTheRoost


    There's pros and cons to a 6 man rotation. Perhaps the single greatest con is by adding another off day to the pitchers current program, you run the risk of them not being sharp and losing command. Most if not all of them have had the same routine since being drafted into pro ball. "Creatures of habit"...

    The other obvious one and perhaps the chief reason why you wouldn't go to a 6 man rotation (you sited above) is that by adding a 6th starter to the rotation. Your taking the ball out of your top three guys hands (15 starts) and giving those starts to a pitcher who's stuff is that of a 6th man. Who would you rather have on the hill, Lester, Beckett & Buccholz or "Miller"...Therein lyes the conundrum, It's tough enough to have 5 quality starters let alone 6 and by adding a 6th starter, your also subtracting an arm from the pen.

    The upside or pros, I see in moving to a 6 man rotation is that you would think that they could then get deeper in each start. The expected norm today is 32 starts/200 IP an average of 6 1/3rd IP per start. In a 6 man rotation, If they were to go 7 innings per start in 27 starts they finish with around 189 IP. Which is what they would need to do to assume the inning we'd lose by subtracting a reliever from the mix, to make room on the roster by adding another starter to the rotation.

    As for the assumption that they'd be stronger by seasons end by lightening thier work load. To some degree even in the current 5 man rotations that has already proven to be prudent. What can't be weighted is that by moving to a 6 man rotation, they'd significantly decrease the risk of injury (arm injuries in particular). For pitchers they risk injury every time they throw the ball from the mound.

    That's my 2 cents...great topic and it's threads like this that make coming to this site worth the time...
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: What are the pro's & cons of using a 6 man rotation, rather than a 5 man rotation?

    No doubt weaker starters equate to more employment and better salaries for relievers... watered down product and some of you want to make it worse. Can't say that is the vision of a true baseball fan.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: What are the pro's & cons of using a 6 man rotation, rather than a 5 man rotation?

    Most teams - even the wealthy and powerful YankSox - struggle to find 5 decent starters, where are the extra starters coming from?  Throwing out the rubbish every 6th day will tax the bullpen.

    Plus the idea of transferring starts from Lester, Beckett and Buchholz to Miller, Wakes and Doubrant is not worth the paper it's printed on.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: What are the pro's & cons of using a 6 man rotation, rather than a 5 man rotation?

    Shrink the season by 40 games and it would be much better.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: What are the pro's & cons of using a 6 man rotation, rather than a 5 man rotation?

    Sonic is  correct I should have added.  Most #5's are terrible, #4's vary from okay to terrible... 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from bigdog1. Show bigdog1's posts

    Re: What are the pro's & cons of using a 6 man rotation, rather than a 5 man rotation?

    The pros would be it would allow your better pitchers to able to dominate more often if they had more rest.  The pitcher's would also could get more steady work in between starts which in turn would make them stronger and sharp;er between starts.

    The cons would be your best pitcher's would start less games and this would also mean that they would lose more oppurtunities to win games which in turn means smaller paychecks.  The team would have to carry more pitcher's and one less bench player.  I like the way it is right now so leave it alone.
     
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    Re: What are the pro's & cons of using a 6 man rotation, rather than a 5 man rotation?

    On weeks with an off day you could skip one of the slots 4 - 6, giving Bard, Ace & someone an occasional day off. This would keep Lester, Beckett & Buc on a regular routine, while also giving them a few more starts. Would that make them (4 - 6 ) less sharp after missing a start or would it help them adjust to making the transition from bp to sp? Would it be easier to keep 1 - 3 on routine & would that benefit them?
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: What are the pro's & cons of using a 6 man rotation, rather than a 5 man rotation?

    Tito already babied them all and none of them could get through the 6th inning...
     
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    Re: What are the pro's & cons of using a 6 man rotation, rather than a 5 man rotation?

    Another con is the impact on the field players/bench.  If the starters average 6 IP per game, that leaves almost 500 innings for the pen, regardless of whether there are 5 or 6 starters.  This means you will very likely have to carry 13 pitchers (7 relievers) to support a 6 man rotation.  With just 12 field players it limits the type of guy you can carry on the bench.  Particularly in the AL, it would be harder to carry a pinch hitting specialist or platoon RF for example.  You need to have a backup catcher, middle IF and utility OF, and these guys must be able to also cover 1B and 3B.  You would have to be careful using these guys during a game in case of injury to one of the regulars.  This could translate into less rest for the regular 9.  The only guy that admitted being tired last year was Gonzalez, suggesting the regulars may need more days off during the season, not less.
     
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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoxRuleTheRoost. Show SoxRuleTheRoost's posts

    Re: What are the pro's & cons of using a 6 man rotation, rather than a 5 man rotation?

    In response to "Re: What are the pro's & cons of using a 6 man rotation, rather than a 5 man rotation?":
    Another con is the impact on the field players/bench.  If the starters average 6 IP per game, that leaves almost 500 innings for the pen, regardless of whether there are 5 or 6 starters.  This means you will very likely have to carry 13 pitchers (7 relievers) to support a 6 man rotation.  With just 12 field players it limits the type of guy you can carry on the bench.  Particularly in the AL, it would be harder to carry a pinch hitting specialist or platoon RF for example.  You need to have a backup catcher, middle IF and utility OF, and these guys must be able to also cover 1B and 3B.  You would have to be careful using these guys during a game in case of injury to one of the regulars.  This could translate into less rest for the regular 9.  The only guy that admitted being tired last year was Gonzalez, suggesting the regulars may need more days off during the season, not less. Posted by phxvlsoxfan
    Good point. Would the sp's especially slot 1-3, be able to go longer in the game, with the decreased workload? If so, that would decrease the bullpen's load by 81 innings of Lester, Beckett & Buc. If you left the sp's slot 4-6 at 6 innings average, that would cut the bp burden to 420 innings. Could 6 relievers average 70 innings a game? Or is that too high a number? Also given the injuries that are bound to happen, while that would decrease the individual innings of the bp, would we have enough effective arms to replace them? It would be nice to have a lot of pitchers stretched out. But as Bobby V pointed out you only have so many innings in st.
     
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    Re: What are the pro's & cons of using a 6 man rotation, rather than a 5 man rotation?

    I take issue with the suggestion that Terry Francona babied his starting pitchers, much more likely that was a recommendation his World Series Championship pitching coaches, Dave Wallace and John Farrell, and even the experienced 1 Season pitching coach. In my mind tough to fault Francona for following recommendation of his experienced pitching coaches.
     
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    Re: What are the pro's & cons of using a 6 man rotation, rather than a 5 man rotation?

    In Response to What are the pro's & cons of using a 6 man rotation, rather than a 5 man rotation?:
    A 5 man rotation has slot 1 & 2 starting 33 games. Slots 3 - 5 starting 32 games. If we are shooting for 6 innings a start average, that would be 198 innings for slots 1 & 2. It would be 192 innings for slots 3 - 5. A 6 man rotation would have slots 1 - 6 starting 27 games. If we are shooting for the same 6 innings a start average, that would be 162 innings for each slot. Which is 36 fewer innings for slots 1 & 2, and 30 fewer innings for slots 3-5. I'm not advocating either just wondering what you think. A few of the pertinent questions would seem to be: 1. Could the starters adjust to the change? 2. Would saving wear and tear on our starters be worth, 6 fewer starts by Lester & Becket & 5 fewer starts by Buc? 3. Could we qualify for the playoffs? 4. Did Bobby V, use a 6 man rotation in Japan? 5. Would it make the transition easier for Bard & Ace? 6. Even if both Bard & Ace made the transition seamlessly, could We get a 6th starter? 7. If we qualified for the playoffs would our starters be better, having saved the bullets, so to speak?
    Posted by SoxRuleTheRoost
    AS DAD WOULD SAY......  "SON, YOUR WORKING TO HARD HERE, AFTER ONLY 5 POSTS I WOULD SUGGEST YOU START WITH SOME EASIER THOUGHTS, SUCH AS HOW MANY BAT-BOYS DO THEY CARRY" !!!
     
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    Re: What are the pro's & cons of using a 6 man rotation, rather than a 5 man rotation?

    Too many cons w/ a 6 man rotation

    You would have to pay the salary of another starter

    Your better starters would get fewer starts - perpahs a dozen fewer starts by your #1 and #2 starter

    You will have one less player (reliever or bench) on your roster

    Chances are your #5 starter is already taxing your pen.  If you add a 6th starter you will have back to back starts of burning your pen.  And remember, you have one less reliever in your pen now.

    ----------

    If you think there is a trend to increase the rotation from 4 to 5 and then you believe that means sooner or later there will be 6 men rotations, then logic would dictate that eventually there will be a 7 and even 8 man rotation.  5 seems to optimal.  If anything, I could see moving back to 4.  Given starters average only 6 innings they should be able to pitch more often and in turn, teams would need to have an extra reliever.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from traven. Show traven's posts

    Re: What are the pro's & cons of using a 6 man rotation, rather than a 5 man rotation?

    Since starting pitching is the glaring weakness of the Sox even with a 5-man rotation, going to a 6-man rotation and giving 17 fewer starts to our top 3 isn't going to help the problem the Sox have.  Instead of having just a weak 4-5 staff the Sox would have a weak 4-5-6 staff.  The answer is to develop a regimen for the 5-man rotation that keeps them all healthy all year long.  The Sox have no idea how the Bard experiment will work out yet...but if it does, then the Sox would have a solid 1-4 staff with only a .500 pitcher needed to fill out the rotation.  Even this board's favorite son - Wake - could fill that position. lol

     
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    Re: What are the pro's & cons of using a 6 man rotation, rather than a 5 man rotation?

    In Response to Re: What are the pro's & cons of using a 6 man rotation, rather than a 5 man rotation?:
    Tito already babied them all and none of them could get through the 6th inning...
    Posted by BurritoT


    Tito is about league average.  Our better starters averaged more than the league average, our weaker starters pitched less, as one would expect.
     
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    Re: What are the pro's & cons of using a 6 man rotation, rather than a 5 man rotation?

    In response to "Re: What are the pro's & cons of using a 6 man rotation, rather than a 5 man rotation?": [QUOTE]Since starting pitching is the glaring weakness of the Sox even with a 5-man rotation, going to a 6-man rotation and giving 17 fewer starts to our top 3 isn't going to help the problem the Sox have.  Instead of having just a weak 4-5 staff the Sox would have a weak 4-5-6 staff.  The answer is to develop a regimen for the 5-man rotation that keeps them all healthy all year long.  The Sox have no idea how the Bard experiment will work out yet...but if it does, then the Sox would have a solid 1-4 staff with only a .500 pitcher needed to fill out the rotation.  Even this board's favorite son - Wake - could fill that position. lol Posted by traven It would seem like a 6 man rotation would only be feasible if both Bard & Ace proved proficient. The FO will probably get another starter. Unless they get a FA or trade for or someone internal emerges as a viable starter to go with Bard & Ace. I would tend to agree with your points.
     
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