What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    In response to Sheriff-Rojas' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The irony of this is that the other team was already on its second pitcher, who replaced the starter after 2.1 innings, allowing no runs, three hits, one walk and four strikeouts.

    Personally, I would have let the pitcher swing away. I'm not replacing my starter who's cruising in the fifth inning of a 1-0 game. With a runner on third, I'm not going to bunt, even a safety bunt, because I feel I'm giving up an out. The way I look at it, let the pitcher hit. Worse case, a shallow fly or pop up or a strikeout and there's just one out with the top of the lineup due up. A double-play ball will tie the score.

    Now no one is right or wrong IMO. I just thought it was interesting what happened and whom the manager was and how we look at things.

    Here's what happened, I came across a video of the game on YouTube (a you might like recommendation that showed up when I went to the the site).

    It's the second-to-last game of the 1967 season for the Red Sox against the Minnesota Twins. Jose Santiago was the starting pitcher. He struggled in the first inning -- three hits and a walk but escaped by just allowing one run.

    He's cruising after that -- retired 12 of 14 batters like I said, which is why I wasn't ready to replace him.

    For some reason, I fast-forwarded the game and don't know why, but the Twins replaced starter Jim Kaat with Jim Perry with one out in the third in the middle of an at-bat.

    In the fifth inning, Reggie Smith doubles to lead off the inning. There was a pinch-hitter in the inning but not for Santiago. Dalton Jones pinch hits for Russ Gibson and beats out an infield grounder. Ball took a bad hop and Rod Carew made a nice stop to prevent the ball from going into the outfield but could't get Jones at 1B.

    Now Santiago is coming to the plate. And Dick Williams allowed Santiago to hit away.

    Santiago struck out as did Mike Andrews who followed. So now there's two outs and runners still on first and third.

    However, Jerry Adair and Carl Yastrzemski hit back-to-back RBI singles to give Boston a 2-1 lead.

    After the Twins tied the score the next inning, George Scott hit a solo home run in the sixth then Yaz gave the Sox breathing room with a three-run homer in the seventh. Santiago went seven innings and Gary Bell, who had warmed up in the first, pitched the last two innings.

    I thought it was interesting when I saw Santiago hitting away because if that situation happened this year -- same must-win game, same inning, same 1-0 score -- John Farrell (or Francona in other years) would have been ripped for not bunting No. 9 batter, certainly if that batter was a pitcher, but even if he wasn't.

    And many of those same folks praise Dick Williams as a manager, yet Williams allowed Santiago to hit and hit away.

    [/QUOTE]

    Great thread, Roy.  Didn't get to respond before you spilled the beans.  My answer would have been swing away, of course. :)

    A consideration would have been the speed of the runner at third.  Now that I know that it was Reggie Smith, the defense would have probably played for the DP up the middle and conceeded the run.  I wouldn't have had Smith break for home on a ball hit sharply to the corners, but I would on anything hit to the towards the middle, unless the second baseman and shortstop were in on the grass.  The runner at third also had the option of getting into rundown if he felt he was nailed at the plate, and could delay things until the runner on first made it to third.  There really wasn't that much to lose by swinging away and the defense would be prepared for the squeeze, so there probably wasn't much to gain from the bunt except for Jones's advance to second to put two runners in scoring position with one out - a very marginal gain considering things could always go wrong on a bunt too.

    [/QUOTE]

    The funniest part of what happened was that Williams PH for the batter before the pitcher.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    it's pre DH, pre "specialized" baseball (see: 7th inning reliever, 8th inning setup, closer) so pitchers got many more AB and many more AB's in high stress or critical situations.

    what happened in this game is interesting because if he did end up grounding into a DP the sox would not have scored that inning at all.  it was actually lucky that he didnt make contact.

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    In response to slasher9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    it's pre DH, pre "specialized" baseball (see: 7th inning reliever, 8th inning setup, closer) so pitchers got many more AB and many more AB's in high stress or critical situations.

    what happened in this game is interesting because if he did end up grounding into a DP the sox would not have scored that inning at all.  it was actually lucky that he didnt make contact.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Why wouldn't they have scored? It's quite common to score from third on a double-play ball. 

    As far as at-bats, Santiago had 45 at-bats (50 PA) in 1967.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from donrd4. Show donrd4's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    What should the manager have the batter do in this scenario:

    Pennant Race. Your team is in second place. A loss would end the season, so this is a must-win game.

    It is the fifth inning. No outs. Your team is trailing 1-0 and there are runners on first and third with no outs. The pitcher, batting .190, is coming to the plate. Do you have the pitcher swing away or bunt?

     

     ADD: Your pitcher, who is at the plate, struggled in the first inning when he gave up a run but retired 12 of the last 14 batters he faced, including two Ks in the top of the fifth.

    [/QUOTE]

    Pinch hitter.... Last game maybe? Would use all pitchers  if needed. No need to save pitcher and waste a possible run .

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to slasher9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    it's pre DH, pre "specialized" baseball (see: 7th inning reliever, 8th inning setup, closer) so pitchers got many more AB and many more AB's in high stress or critical situations.

    what happened in this game is interesting because if he did end up grounding into a DP the sox would not have scored that inning at all.  it was actually lucky that he didnt make contact.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Why wouldn't they have scored? It's quite common to score from third on a double-play ball. 

    As far as at-bats, Santiago had 45 at-bats (50 PA) in 1967.

    [/QUOTE]


    yes, my mistake.  very probably they would have tied the game on a dp.  my post should have said not taken the lead. 

    not many AB's.  i def would have PH.  but, things worked out for the Sox with the "swing away" so all's well that ends well....

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    In response to slasher9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to slasher9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    it's pre DH, pre "specialized" baseball (see: 7th inning reliever, 8th inning setup, closer) so pitchers got many more AB and many more AB's in high stress or critical situations.

    what happened in this game is interesting because if he did end up grounding into a DP the sox would not have scored that inning at all.  it was actually lucky that he didnt make contact.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Why wouldn't they have scored? It's quite common to score from third on a double-play ball. 

    As far as at-bats, Santiago had 45 at-bats (50 PA) in 1967.

    [/QUOTE]


    yes, my mistake.  very probably they would have tied the game on a dp.  my post should have said not taken the lead. 

    not many AB's.  i def would have PH.  but, things worked out for the Sox with the "swing away" so all's well that ends well....

    [/QUOTE]


    It was interesting to watch the old broadcast. Ned Martin and Ken Coleman were sharing the play-by-play duties and Mel Parnell was doing color. I was too young to remember Parnell.

    Players should watch those old broadcasts. Players rarely -- if ever -- stepped out of the box and pitchers worked fast. The ftop of the first inning was 15 minutes because of the hits but after that the game moved.

    And wow -- I remember how George Scott looked in his last years with Boston -- 77 and 78 -- and he looked relatively slim in 1967. And it was weird watching Ken Harrelson play after know how he is now as an announcer.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    What should the manager have the batter do in this scenario:

    Pennant Race. Your team is in second place. A loss would end the season, so this is a must-win game.

    It is the fifth inning. No outs. Your team is trailing 1-0 and there are runners on first and third with no outs. The pitcher, batting .190, is coming to the plate. Do you have the pitcher swing away or bunt?

     

     ADD: Your pitcher, who is at the plate, struggled in the first inning when he gave up a run but retired 12 of the last 14 batters he faced, including two Ks in the top of the fifth.

    [/QUOTE]

    1-It might be helpful to know what type of hitter the #1 is.

    2-Is the game at home?

    3-I'd have other questions like are the PS really 1-0 pitchers, or are they guys with a 4.75, but otherwise, with a .190, I'd have him swing away.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from billge. Show billge's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    I cantbeive how deprareur2 takk bout nuffun

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    What should the manager have the batter do in this scenario:

    Pennant Race. Your team is in second place. A loss would end the season, so this is a must-win game.

    It is the fifth inning. No outs. Your team is trailing 1-0 and there are runners on first and third with no outs. The pitcher, batting .190, is coming to the plate. Do you have the pitcher swing away or bunt?

     

     ADD: Your pitcher, who is at the plate, struggled in the first inning when he gave up a run but retired 12 of the last 14 batters he faced, including two Ks in the top of the fifth.

    [/QUOTE]

    1-It might be helpful to know what type of hitter the #1 is.

    2-Is the game at home?

    3-I'd have other questions like are the PS really 1-0 pitchers, or are they guys with a 4.75, but otherwise, with a .190, I'd have him swing away.

    [/QUOTE]

    1. Well you have to figure that the No. 1 batter must be a decent hitter because he was leading off. Didn't want to get too specific, but the leadoff batter was Mike Andrews. In retrospect, I could have been more specific and had everyone try to guess what move Dick Williams made.

    2. Actually I did say it was the bottom of the fifth (see bold item).Tongue Out

    3. For that year, the starting pitchers were that good.

     

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