What do you want from a catcher?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thomasmtom. Show Thomasmtom's posts

    Re: What do you want from a catcher?

    If Salty is to be traded what is the anticipated return? Clearly if he is as bad a catcher as a number of you believe he is the return won't be of any great value.
    In all fairness both Salty and Lavarnway are young and still learning,  both are hard workers and continue to improve. Isn't that what we want?

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chilliwings. Show Chilliwings's posts

    Re: What do you want from a catcher?

    Thom - Exactly.  While it's always possible a team can mis-evaluate a player, or have a specific need, misjudge a player's health, etc., generally teams have full information....scouting, medical, salary, control on players.  I think he's worth a lot, actually, so wouldn't trade him because I can see him as our starting catcher for years....if they sign him after next year, that is.

    Another silly concept is "trade Ellsbury before his value declines" i.e. we lose him post-2013 as if every team doesn't know he's a FA after 2013!  If Ellsbury's performance in 2012/13 plus a draft pick when he walks is worth 10 widgets to us, it's worth 10 widgets to every other team....and they all know it.  We're not getting 12 widgets for him unless another team makes a mistake, or the Sox get lucky.

    How big a haul in prospects have the big time impending FAs brought the past few years?  Very little.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: What do you want from a catcher?

    In Response to Re: What do you want from a catcher?:
    Thom - Exactly.  While it's always possible a team can mis-evaluate a player, or have a specific need, misjudge a player's health, etc., generally teams have full information....scouting, medical, salary, control on players.  I think he's worth a lot, actually, so wouldn't trade him because I can see him as our starting catcher for years....if they sign him after next year, that is. Another silly concept is "trade Ellsbury before his value declines" i.e. we lose him post-2013 as if every team doesn't know he's a FA after 2013 !  If Ellsbury's performance in 2012/13 plus a draft pick when he walks is worth 10 widgets to us, it's worth 10 widgets to every other team....and they all know it.  We're not getting 12 widgets for him unless another team makes a mistake, or the Sox get lucky. How big a haul in prospects have the big time impending FAs brought the past few years?  Very little.
    Posted by Chilliwings
    Exactly, twice more.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: What do you want from a catcher?

    In Response to Re: What do you want from a catcher?:
    Thom - Exactly.  While it's always possible a team can mis-evaluate a player, or have a specific need, misjudge a player's health, etc., generally teams have full information....scouting, medical, salary, control on players.  I think he's worth a lot, actually, so wouldn't trade him because I can see him as our starting catcher for years....if they sign him after next year, that is. Another silly concept is "trade Ellsbury before his value declines" i.e. we lose him post-2013 as if every team doesn't know he's a FA after 2013 !  If Ellsbury's performance in 2012/13 plus a draft pick when he walks is worth 10 widgets to us, it's worth 10 widgets to every other team....and they all know it.  We're not getting 12 widgets for him unless another team makes a mistake, or the Sox get lucky. How big a haul in prospects have the big time impending FAs brought the past few years?  Very little.
    Posted by Chilliwings


    That's the difference between the trade Ells and trade Salty debates.  The drop off between Ells and his replacement is far greater than the drop between Salty and Lava.  If the Sox can improve the farm with a B level prospect without suffering any significant drop in production, why shouldn't they?
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: What do you want from a catcher?

    In Response to Re: What do you want from a catcher?:

    Salty was historically bad last year, There's no way around that.  He also hasn't shown the ability to play more than 60% of games and even then he wore down late last year.  He seems best suited as a backup catcher/1B/DH, which is how Texas was using him during his time in the majors with them.

    There's a reason that to Sox got him so cheaply from Texas.  He's a decent stop gap option, and there's no longer a need for that stop gap.  Send him to Washington where he can back up Flores and fit into their budget.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: What do you want from a catcher?

    In Response to Re: What do you want from a catcher?:
    Thom - Exactly.  While it's always possible a team can mis-evaluate a player, or have a specific need, misjudge a player's health, etc., generally teams have full information....scouting, medical, salary, control on players.  I think he's worth a lot, actually, so wouldn't trade him because I can see him as our starting catcher for years....if they sign him after next year, that is. Another silly concept is "trade Ellsbury before his value declines" i.e. we lose him post-2013 as if every team doesn't know he's a FA after 2013 !  If Ellsbury's performance in 2012/13 plus a draft pick when he walks is worth 10 widgets to us, it's worth 10 widgets to every other team....and they all know it.  We're not getting 12 widgets for him unless another team makes a mistake, or the Sox get lucky. How big a haul in prospects have the big time impending FAs brought the past few years?  Very little.
    Posted by Chilliwings

    If Ellsbury after his 2nd place MVP voting was worth 12 widgets, then right now he's worth 6 widgets.  On May 17, 2012 we have no widgets.  If we had a GM with some guts we could have 6 widgets in CF and 6 widgets in the bullpen.  Instead we have Marlon Byrd, or a half a widget... or a widg.

    The time to sell on Ellsbury was 5 months ago.  We blew it - everybody must see that now.


     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimedfred. Show jimedfred's posts

    Re: What do you want from a catcher?

    JB-3 : In an early post on this thread, you emphatically state that Lavarnway is a better catcher defensively than Salty. Do you have any empirical data to verify this beyond wishful thinking ?

    And hill-55 seems to measure catcher ability in terms of caught-stealing percentage. Hmmm, let's see.....Dwight Evans typically had fewer outfield assists than many of his peers. Did this indicate a weaker throwing arm or more likely, opponent's lack of attempts due to respect FOR that arm ?
    Catcher defense is the total of pitch calling / setting up hitters, maximizing specific pitchers' strengths, blocking low or outside pitches, guarding home plate against runners attempting to score, AND throwing out felonous baserunners. Little wonder that great offense from a catcher is relatively rare. Berra, Campanella, Bench and Carter were anomalies.
    Opinions of scouts I've  read on other sites suggest that as bad as Salty appears at blocking pitches ( and he has shown significant improvement of late ), Lavarnway still has a LONG WAY to go before replacing him.

    Let's all take a deep breath before running Saltalamacchia out of town for prospects. Now if some drunken G.M. offered us Steven Strasburg or Jered Weaver for him ?
    I'll personally pack his bags !
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chilliwings. Show Chilliwings's posts

    Re: What do you want from a catcher?

    In Response to Re: What do you want from a catcher?:
    In Response to Re: What do you want from a catcher? : If Ellsbury after his 2nd place MVP voting was worth 12 widgets, then right now he's worth 6 widgets.  On May 17, 2012 we have no widgets.  If we had a GM with some guts we could have 6 widgets in CF and 6 widgets in the bullpen.  Instead we have Marlon Byrd, or a half a widget... or a widg. The time to sell on Ellsbury was 5 months ago.  We blew it - everybody must see that now.
    Posted by slomag


    Surely that's hindsight?  How could the Sox have predicted another traumatic injury to Ellsbury?
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: What do you want from a catcher?

    Jim:  Nothing with a sufficiently large sample size at the MLB level because he hasn't yet been given his chance.  However, going by scouting reports praising the progress that he's made to become a MLB level catcher combined with his 33% CS % (97 CS out of 297 attempts) vs 24% for Salty in MLB (but 29% in MiLB) throughout his MiLB career (which is only a small aspect of a catchers defense), it's safe to assume that he's better behind the plate than someone who was as historically bad as I stated in a previous post.

    Lava had 7 PB's in 62 games last year with a 37% CS%, but only 1 PB in 30 games behind the plate this year with a 39% CS% (12 caught in 31 attempts).
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: What do you want from a catcher?

    In Response to Re: What do you want from a catcher?:
    In Response to Re: What do you want from a catcher? : Salty was historically bad last year, There's no way around that.  He also hasn't shown the ability to play more than 60% of games and even then he wore down late last year.  He seems best suited as a backup catcher/1B/DH, which is how Texas was using him during his time in the majors with them. There's a reason that to Sox got him so cheaply from Texas.  He's a decent stop gap option, and there's no longer a need for that stop gap.  Send him to Washington where he can back up Flores and fit into their budget.
    Posted by JB-3
    You are having calendar problems, among others.

     
  11. This post has been removed.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: What do you want from a catcher?

    In Response to Re: What do you want from a catcher?:
    [QUOTE]Jim:  Nothing with a sufficiently large sample size at the MLB level because he hasn't yet been given his chance.  However, going by scouting reports praising the progress that he's made to become a MLB level catcher combined with his 33% CS % (97 CS out of 297 attempts) vs 24% for Salty in MLB (but 29% in MiLB) throughout his MiLB career (which is only a small aspect of a catchers defense), it's safe to assume that he's better behind the plate than someone who was as historically bad as I stated in a previous post. Lava had 7 PB's in 62 games last year with a 37% CS%, but only 1 PB in 30 games behind the plate this year with a 39% CS% (12 caught in 31 attempts).
    Posted by JB-3[/QUOTE
    He IS better than some WAS. Even if that  were true, at this point it's irrelevant.
    "Progress to become" means BECOME, not has arrived.
    You're having all sorts of trouble with tenses.
    You keep reading those reports. I'll watch the ball games.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: What do you want from a catcher?

    In Response to Re: What do you want from a catcher?:
    In Response to Re: What do you want from a catcher? :  He IS better than some WAS. Even if that  were true, at this point it's irrelevant. "Progress to become" means BECOME, not has arrived. You're having all sorts of trouble with tenses. You keep reading those reports. I'll watch the ball games.
    Posted by expitch


    Lava IS better than Salty IS.  Lava WAS better than Salty WAS last year.  You're having issues quoting me, as I never said "Progress to become".  If I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are referring to scouting reports, it doesn't seem to matter seeing as he's already on par or better than Salty.

    You seem to have quite a few issues yourself.  Agree to disagree and move on.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: What do you want from a catcher?

    In Response to Re: What do you want from a catcher?:
    In Response to Re: What do you want from a catcher? : Lava IS better than Salty IS.  Lava WAS better than Salty WAS last year.  You're having issues quoting me, as I never said "Progress to become".  If I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are referring to scouting reports, it doesn't seem to matter seeing as he's already on par or better than Salty. You seem to have quite a few issues yourself.  Agree to disagree and move on.
    Posted by JB-3
    You said, "Progress that he's made to become," presumably relying upon scouting reports. If you refer to it as evidence, you own it. Simple. Hard to think someone might say, "Scouts think the guy is making progress but I can't be sure."
    What doesn't matter? An opinion that differs from yours? Who says besides you that Lavarnway right now is as good as or better than Salty? We'll see what the Sox do when the calendar is right.
    I have no idea what you mean by that vague leaden term "issues." And don't care. I report what I see, analyze it, and state my opinion. So do others. 
    Yes, do move on. You've already lost this argument on this board, save for an apparent partnership with Bill. But don't noise that around if you desire credibility.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: What do you want from a catcher?

    Salty is doing fine. I do think he is doing better than last year with the staff. But he also had a very good stretch last year with most of the staff only to tire late in the year. The key here is can Shoppach take the pressure off him so that Salty
    1. doesn't get fatigued too much later in season
    2. hits well enough to make a difference offensively.
    I think the other key to Salty is he doesn't catch Wakefield and he proved he was terrible with Wakefield. It happens, but he was forced to catch him as Tito refused to let Tek catch him, which I thought would have been a better option late in the year. The one time Tek caught him, he threw 3 shutout innings in relief v. Texas.
    Salty's passball issue also was primarily with Wake, so you can't really use passed balls against Salty. In other years, Salty would never have lasted at all as Wake's catcher. The Sox chose catcher over pitcher last year.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What do you want from a catcher?

    I am not spinning anything....I think 26 PB are way too much....Wake or no Wake...but I noted that at the same age and basically the same ML experience Tek had 27 PB and then he improved each year.....and I and many other posters can see that improvement starting in Salty.....and this years stats indicate it...do you not see improvement?

    Remember, VTek caught Wake early in his career then the job was given to his back-up almost exclusively. That might have had something to do with Tek's B drop off rate.

    I have been highly critical of Salty for about a year. I was all for trading him while his SOX stock was high. Some GM was drooling at salty's bat while his catching tandem is hitting .195. However, ex is right here, Salty has done much better the past 2-3 weeks.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: What do you want from a catcher?

    From the eyeball test Salty has not had the lapses he did last year in terms of fielding, in fact on Wednesday he made some really nice blocks. He isn't a great throwing catcher, but he is average IMHO and with staff he is only going to throw out an average percentage of runners. The freaky yips he had throwing the ball back to pitcher back in Texas seem to be in his past.

    Salty's bat is average for his position. Catchers are seldom great hitters. Would I like it better if the RS offense was able to use Salty much further down in batting order than they can right now with CC and Ellsbury on the DL.

    Right now in AAA Lavarnway is putting up a better BA and OBP than Salty but his .720 OPS doesn't scream that this guy HAS TO be in the majors tomorrow.

    I know it is hard to trust that pros know best but I think there was a reason the RS in a season where they were watching the payroll budget so closely they traded Scutaro to make budget for Ross, are waiting on Lavarnway to develop in AAA and tendered Salty with a $2.5M one year deal and picked up Shoppach for another $1.35M.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: What do you want from a catcher?

    In Response to Re: What do you want from a catcher?:
    From the eyeball test Salty has not had the lapses he did last year in terms of fielding, in fact on Wednesday he made some really nice blocks. He isn't a great throwing catcher, but he is average IMHO and with staff he is only going to throw out an average percentage of runners. The freaky yips he had throwing the ball back to pitcher back in Texas seem to be in his past. Salty's bat is average for his position. Catchers are seldom great hitters. Would I like it better if the RS offense was able to use Salty much further down in batting order than they can right now with CC and Ellsbury on the DL. Right now in AAA Lavarnway is putting up a better BA and OBP than Salty but his .720 OPS doesn't scream that this guy HAS TO be in the majors tomorrow. I know it is hard to trust that pros know best but I think there was a reason the RS in a season where they were watching the payroll budget so closely they traded Scutaro to make budget for Ross, are waiting on Lavarnway to develop in AAA and tendered Salty with a $2.5M one year deal and picked up Shoppach for another $1.35M.
    Posted by fivekatz
    Not only do his numbers not scream that he should be in the majors ( I think Salty has 5 homers to Lavarnway's 2 ), but it would be unwise, to say the least, to match an inexperienced catcher with a pitching staff that seems more and more comfortable with Salty. IMO, his pitch-calling has been nifty for quite a while. Right, Wednesday night he put on quite a defensive show behind the plate.  

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: What do you want from a catcher?

    In Response to Re: What do you want from a catcher?:
    In Response to Re: What do you want from a catcher? : Not only do his numbers not scream that he should be in the majors ( I think Salty has 5 homers to Lavarnway's 2 ), but it would be unwise, to say the least, to match an inexperienced catcher with a pitching staff that seems more and more comfortable with Salty. IMO, his pitch-calling has been nifty for quite a while. Right, Wednesday night he put on quite a defensive show behind the plate.  
    Posted by expitch
    Quite a nice game against the Phillies tonight too. 12 stiches in the ear and right back behind the plate and he really had to work tonight in terms of blocking a lot of errant pitches. And a good night at the plate.
     
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: What do you want from a catcher?

    In Response to Re: What do you want from a catcher?:
    In Response to Re: What do you want from a catcher? : Quite a nice game against the Phillies tonight too. 12 stiches in the ear and right back behind the plate and he really had to work tonight in terms of blocking a lot of errant pitches. And a good night at the plate.  
    Posted by fivekatz
    He looks both tough and enthusiastic, and more and more is taking over as a leader on the field. The pitchers don't seem to object to him at all.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What do you want from a catcher?

    Salty's bat is average for his position. Catchers are seldom great hitters. 

    Since the start of 2011, there are 28 catchers with 350+ PAs.

    Salty ranks:

    24th in OBP at .288 (#14-16 are .326)

    20th in BA  .241 (#16 is .259)

    14th in OPS at .752
     
    8th in HRs with 21

    6th in HR/PA
    Napoli    .064
    Arenc.    .054
    McCann .051
    Wieters  .047
    Santana .047
    Salty      .046

    5th in RBI/PA
    Arencibia  .172
    Napoli      .162
    Montero   .153
    Santana   .147
    Salty        .146

    If we could limit Salty's PAs vs LHPs, we'd see him have much better numbers.
    Salty has an .806 OPS vs RHPs since 2011 (8th in MLB).
    His .500 Slg% vs RHPs is 4th in MLB.

    If you prorate his numbers to 650 PAs, his 2011-2012 line would be:
    (Before tonight's game)

    .256  28  95

    Counting tonight's game, he might be more like...

    .258  30  100



    5th in Slg% at .464 (might have passed Doumit at .466 with tonight's 3/4)

    12th in RBIs with 71 (but if you took RBI/PA he'd be much higher)
     
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